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Two years later: Walking in Stations

First post
Author
Stitcher
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#81 - 2013-12-06 16:54:42 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Stitcher wrote:
. I'd just like for them to be a specific kind of gameplay mechanics that are avatar-based rather than spaceship-based.


Like what?

[...]

Has anyone even suggested what they want to do apart from the perennial "Sit in a bar"?


Imagine if you will a scenario in which a capsuleer can, say, walk into a Lai Dai corporate office aboard a station while posing as an executive, hack the mainframe and abscond with stolen data. But they risk being caught, evicted from the station, being fined, losing standings... Maybe they did all of this on behalf of the Hyasyoda Corporation, maybe they did the job themselves for their own reasons.

Maybe those blueprints are for prototype implants. Being stolen, these are Illegal to move around highsec and illegal to trade on the SCC market or even via the station trade interface - the only way to trade them is face to face, at a handover on some lower decks, maybe with some bodyguards in tow. The deal could go south - maybe the guy being traded with prefers to get the firepower discount. Maybe it's a sting by a player looking to claim a bounty on confiscated contraband.

Think Ocean's 11, okay? Maybe the pilot can hire DUST mercs to hit a nearby corporate facility for him, distracting the security forces, or making the hack easier by opening a back door into the mainframe. Maybe he can have other players watching his back, intercepting comms traffic, improving his odds of success... or maybe betraying him.

Or here's an idea - graphical representations for strategic planning, industrial planning, corp ship fitting and stuff. Corp members gather around a holographic projector in their office, all looking at the same data, able to play around with it like Tony Stark and his holographic design tools.

CCP Bayesian had his "exploring abandoned facilities" concept which I thought was cool, too.

If the theme of the next few expansions is capsuleers breaking free from the Empires and beginning to go their own way, then I'd view WiS as being the capsuleers beginning to exploit and manipulate the empires now that their dependence upon them has been broken.

The point is, whatever you do in stations should benefit you in space. It should be a money-making mechanic that gives you materials, ISK, LP or whatever. It should be another new corner in the sandbox where you can build your own castle and earn money off it... or watch it be kicked over. It shouldn't just be an RP venue - we already have those.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Mr Pragmatic
#82 - 2013-12-06 16:55:21 UTC
Rhes wrote:
Mr Pragmatic wrote:
More stale arguments concerning "the players that left".

If players get butt hurt over something so simple as a walk in station, maybe Eve isnt for them.

Nobody got "butt hurt" over "walk in station". Eve players got mad over the game being ignored for two years while "walk in station" was developed.


I think CCP has the capability to chew bubble gum and walk. Developing content for WiS need not be too difficult, even if its slowly brought into the game.

IE a room in the WiS per expansion. All they got to do is develop 4 Rooms per expansion. Not too difficult, especially since the ground work is there.

Super cali hella yolo swaga dopeness.  -Yoloswaggins, in the fellowship of the bling.

Stitcher
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#83 - 2013-12-06 17:05:28 UTC
Basically, what are the six things that capsuleers (i.e., players) care about?

Ships, things to fit on ships, boosters and implants, clones, ISK, and the means to acquire, earn or make all of the above.

WiS advocates are proposing that WiS should be another flavour of that last one. As opposed to a closet where you sit on the couch and maybe change your shirt. Which is what every expansion ever has added to the game.

the difference between spaceships and avatars is an illusion. It's all EVE.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#84 - 2013-12-06 17:09:04 UTC
Baroness Vulna wrote:


CCP doesn't need to put as much resources into improving WiS , they could gradually work on it with each expansion that way it would complement space ship improvements.

I'm afraid that you hit upon exactly the crucial spot.

Unless they stick to updating some art and polish a bit in the corners, they will have to put serious amount of resources into getting WiS anywhere beyond where it is.

The code that is currently in EvE (WoD was forked and is most likely much better) is a mess.

How do I know? Because if it wasn't then we would have seen a lot of little stuff done.

There are CCP staff that wants WiS to advance, and they all have time allocated to add some little stuff just for fun.

Please note that my views on the state of affairs in the world of WiS in based only on public statements from CCP and CCP staff using official channels, parsed by ego and experience ;)

I would like to see those little things happen, but if my assumption of the state of code and the various projects is correct and I'd been anywhere in charge, then I'd said No.

Not until there is a solid case to assign some serious amount of resource.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.

Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#85 - 2013-12-06 17:24:30 UTC
Stitcher wrote:

the difference between spaceships and avatars is an illusion. It's all EVE.

That might be true if you ask a game designer.

If you understood a minor fraction of the difference between rendering a somewhat lifelike avatar and a spaceship then you wouldn't state it so casual.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.

Lipbite
Express Hauler
#86 - 2013-12-06 17:25:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Lipbite
Rhes wrote:
Let's hope CCP keeps their promise to focus on real Eve content.

What real EVE content? Cheap F2P-like PvP without any dynamic? It's abundant and is free in 100s of other games and has better quality there. EVE was supposed to be great sci-fi game but in reality it's set of primitive and boring mini-games (rotation around anchors in FW plexes is so boring people actually fall asleep there) with zero to none sci-fi content besides graphics and text-based quests with interface from from mid-90s.

Avatar gameplay could change that yet the management of CCP is lacking leadership so badly they've scrapped multi-million Incarna investments just because the game lost 5% accounts of multiboxers whose computers simply couldn't launch more than a single client. Which is no longer the case (multiboxing is thriving again) so development may continue.
Stitcher
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#87 - 2013-12-06 17:27:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Lors Dornick wrote:
Stitcher wrote:

the difference between spaceships and avatars is an illusion. It's all EVE.

That might be true if you ask a game designer.

If you understood a minor fraction of the difference between rendering a somewhat lifelike avatar and a spaceship then you wouldn't state it so casual.


I actually do understand the difference, quite intimately.

I was talking from a high-concept philosophical perspective rather than a technical one. As should have been obvious.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#88 - 2013-12-06 17:34:23 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Lors Dornick wrote:
Stitcher wrote:

the difference between spaceships and avatars is an illusion. It's all EVE.

That might be true if you ask a game designer.

If you understood a minor fraction of the difference between rendering a somewhat lifelike avatar and a spaceship then you wouldn't state it so casual.


I actually do understand the difference, quite intimately.

I was talking from a high-concept philosophical perspective rather than a technical one. As should have been obvious.

But the reason why WiS is in this state, and why it'll remain in this state for some years is and remains a technical one.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.

Stitcher
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#89 - 2013-12-06 17:39:35 UTC
Lors Dornick wrote:
But the reason why WiS is in this state, and why it'll remain in this state for some years is and remains a technical one.


I think it's quite clear that the major reason for that is one of opposition and philosophy rather than technical challenge. CCP don't let technical challenges stop them - if they did, EVE wouldn't even exist. Technical challenges are eminently surmountable - player hostility is less so.

Every time somebody even mentions the possibility of resurrecting Incarna content, we get a thread full of hostility, usually spearheaded by the Goons for some reason.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Baroness Vulna
Armada vi Vulnezia
#90 - 2013-12-06 17:43:30 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Lors Dornick wrote:
But the reason why WiS is in this state, and why it'll remain in this state for some years is and remains a technical one.


I think it's quite clear that the major reason for that is one of opposition and philosophy rather than technical challenge. CCP don't let technical challenges stop them - if they did, EVE wouldn't even exist. Technical challenges are eminently surmountable - player hostility is less so.

Every time somebody even mentions the possibility of resurrecting Incarna content, we get a thread full of hostility, usually spearheaded by the Goons for some reason.



I think some people are afraid of a repeat of Incarna and i do not blame them. That is why CCP needs to gradually work on enhancing the hangar environment and WiS instead of coming out with one giant expansion for it. But then i am not a developer so I am just giving opinion. But this walking in stations must be pretty important..i just started this thread 3 hours ago or so and it has a great bit of traffic and support.

CCP listens to all of its players, we have seen it in the past. I really believe they want to deliver for those of us who support WiS still today.

brought to you by -Barony of Vulnezia MMO micro nation- www.vulnezia.com Be a part of the world's first MMO Micro Nation

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#91 - 2013-12-06 17:43:54 UTC
Lors Dornick wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


The arguments in favor of avatars still are the same now as they were in 2011:

- provide a immersive New Player Experience
- improve player attachment to the game
- optimize and exploit the resources spent in developing WoD
- gain female players
- enable vanity microtransactions
- expand EVE beyond its "cult" niche

And currently there's a few more:

- attract new players
- compete against a new generation of "classic" space games featuring avatars
- expand beyond its stagnant niche

Must be noted that all the above except the expansion can be achieved without additional gameplay. Must be noted too that the ongoing Hallelujah Plan does not adress any of the above.

Now.

Since it doesn't look like we are getting any avatar based game play in the close future (which in EvE terms means not for then next 3-5 years) it either means that you have a better understanding of the market and/or are much smarter then CCP management.

Or that they have other opinions and/or access to information that you don't have.

Since I refuse to question your intelligence I think it comes down to the latter.(...)


Personally my opinion is that they've painted themselves in a corner after a series of bad decissions and are trying to sell the corner as the place they always wanted to be.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Stitcher
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#92 - 2013-12-06 17:49:53 UTC
Am I the only one around here who never noticed any problems with the code and optimisation of Incarna?

Seriously, not once. Not even on my really rather substandard laptop. I keep hearing about it but it seems to be from a vocal minority who were on the wrong end of a rare phenomen rather than an endemic flaw like with the whole boot.ini thing.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#93 - 2013-12-06 17:51:34 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

Personally my opinion is that they've painted themselves in a corner after a series of bad decissions and are trying to sell the corner as the place they always wanted to be.

If that is so, then they have painted them self into a corner where they have survived and grown for 10 years.

Which might not be the wrong move.

Getting stuck in a dark corner, where you have a chance to stay and grow can be better than hitting for the centre of the floor and get stomped.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.

Samoth Egnoled
Caldari Provisions
#94 - 2013-12-06 17:54:33 UTC
I don't think CCP will ever deliver on WiS, they have the tech for instance with dust and WoD. But they still havn't implemented anything despite having working models for this stuff. Eve is old now, the developers no longer have the passion they used to in 2003, theyre getting bored and are looking at other projects to move onto imo.

As soon as WoD and VR are finished, my bet is that they will slowly phase out eve.

(this is not what i want to happen, i would love for eve/dust/VR to be one game. I just dont see it happening)
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#95 - 2013-12-06 17:57:39 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Am I the only one around here who never noticed any problems with the code and optimisation of Incarna?

Have you tried using it?
Like trying to get your avatar to walk from point a to point b without getting stuck and doing silly walks for 30 seconds before giving up?

Have you looked at the amount of resources gobbled up by a single animated avatar alone i that room?

The code that's currently in EvE would need some serious tweaks before you go exploring, or bar fighting or whatever with it.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.

Gerald Sphinx
Killer Yankee
#96 - 2013-12-06 18:02:02 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Am I the only one around here who never noticed any problems with the code and optimisation of Incarna?

Seriously, not once. Not even on my really rather substandard laptop. I keep hearing about it but it seems to be from a vocal minority who were on the wrong end of a rare phenomen rather than an endemic flaw like with the whole boot.ini thing.


Then you got lucky.

A lot of players back in 2011 were reporting seeing their graphics cards literally melting inside their desktop case. I even experienced problem with Incarna's CQ back then as well. The code was so poorly optimized that I had to close down my Eve client almost every time I switched to CQ.
Notorious Fellon
#97 - 2013-12-06 18:09:46 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Am I the only one around here who never noticed any problems with the code and optimisation of Incarna?

Seriously, not once. Not even on my really rather substandard laptop. I keep hearing about it but it seems to be from a vocal minority who were on the wrong end of a rare phenomen rather than an endemic flaw like with the whole boot.ini thing.



You are not the only one. I suffered no real issues. My system at the time was cutting edge. I didn't notice anything of mention until I read the forum complaints. All I saw was a bit more heat and thus a bit higher RPMs on my GPU fans.

But I think the forums alone revealed a large and wide issue impacting many people.

Crime, it is not a "career", it is a lifestyle.

Gerald Sphinx
Killer Yankee
#98 - 2013-12-06 18:13:22 UTC
Notorious Fellon wrote:
Stitcher wrote:
Am I the only one around here who never noticed any problems with the code and optimisation of Incarna?

Seriously, not once. Not even on my really rather substandard laptop. I keep hearing about it but it seems to be from a vocal minority who were on the wrong end of a rare phenomen rather than an endemic flaw like with the whole boot.ini thing.



You are not the only one. I suffered no real issues. My system at the time was cutting edge. I didn't notice anything of mention until I read the forum complaints. All I saw was a bit more heat and thus a bit higher RPMs on my GPU fans.

But I think the forums alone revealed a large and wide issue impacting many people.



Like I said, you guys got lucky. I was among those who noticed major problems with the hardware and poorly optimized code. Thankfully, I wasn't among those whose graphics cards melted.
Baroness Vulna
Armada vi Vulnezia
#99 - 2013-12-06 18:39:54 UTC
What would really discourage me now is if someone from CCP came on this thread and said "we will never work on WiS again , so dont ask again, now go play with your internet spaceships and be happy"

That would really make me feel small....in my station....looking at my big ship.

brought to you by -Barony of Vulnezia MMO micro nation- www.vulnezia.com Be a part of the world's first MMO Micro Nation

Baroness Vulna
Armada vi Vulnezia
#100 - 2013-12-06 19:13:08 UTC
this thread has gotten too big so i edited the OP to give a little history on WiS such as this

A brief history of Walking in Stations (WiS) for newer folks. In 2007 there was a video from ten ton hammer where CCP unveiled a new concept for EVE Online. Walking in stations. It was the first step toward having Avatars or characters in first person not just flying a ship around. The video for many was inspiriting.
People waited four years, CCP put out promising news and video's about the progress of Ambulation, then Incarna.
In 2011 the Incarna expansion came with tremendous anticipation from some and ire from others. Incarna was a disaster and the fallout was CCP dropped WiS almost completely to focus on spaceships.
There are many of us who still believe CCP can add to the station environment and even give us limited WiS while still focusing on our beloved spaceships.

What do you think?

brought to you by -Barony of Vulnezia MMO micro nation- www.vulnezia.com Be a part of the world's first MMO Micro Nation