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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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Morgan North
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#1561 - 2012-01-04 17:04:30 UTC
Magosian wrote:
I hope everyone had an enjoyable holiday season, even CCP. Big smile



-increase the effective range of null ammo to match barrage and scorch
-give hybrid ammo the overhaul it desperately needs (reduced reload timers is worthless without decent ammo selection)
-crown gallente as the speed king
-make local rep MUCH more effective
-swap the properties of hybrids and projectiles
-significantly increase scan resolution and sensor strength on all gallente ships
-reduce mineral costs of hybrid turrets and ships, at least until this is all ironed out (this is the least you could do for CCP customers who make, use, buy, and lose anything related to hybrids)



+1 for more speed and Local rep.

Basically, give the Deimos the Phobos stats. In fact just make the Phobos the HAC of the two. And give it drones and less mass. Win for Gallente.
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1562 - 2012-01-04 17:55:15 UTC
thoth rothschild wrote:
tEcHnOkRaT wrote:
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Bigger should never been better in a game of possibilities...
Using tactics and strategy to counter bigger stuff should be perfectly viable


so ur point is to win with a frigate that cost 300k isk against a battleship that costs 140kk isk ?

and if a frigate could kill any bigger ship why even vaste time and isk to train them and then buy them ?

the only thing a frigate should do to a battleship is to be annoying

otherwise there efficency should reflect in there isk cost



So your point is a Supercarrier should be able to kill each none capital ship no matter of size and a titan should be able to DD everythin in space?

b)
If my efficiency should reflect my isk cost i demand my sabre to be able to kill each tier 1 battleship and each bc without any mercy and much effort. A Hurricane is cheaper than a sabre :p


Fitted sabre 115 mio isk.
Fitted dominic 83 mio isk.
Fitted daredevil more than my sabre!



thats a stupid argument
u can fit a dominix easily for 100bil isk
what i was talking about was hull price not fit price
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1563 - 2012-01-04 18:06:38 UTC
Hull price of sabre still more expensive than dominix :p

sabre 47 mio isk
dominix 45 mio isk

you started the more valuable ship argument not me :p
Fade Azura
Weaponized Autists Cartel
#1564 - 2012-01-04 18:20:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Fade Azura
gallente still dont have a place in eve ..... they suck at pvp and pve in almost every aspect .... gallente are the worst for doing sleepers sites in WH obviously. and in incursions they suck as well or are overshadowed by other ships. good luck getting into an incursion fleet with a gallente boat. and they are not that great at missions either .... even my maximum skilled sentry domi is only about as good as your average tengu and the Domi is more work and MUCH more training. NO PLACE IN PVE AT ALL.

in pvp rails are the most fail turret to use by far. NOBODY uses rails in pvp except at a pos bash and if they do its usually a fluke or some dumb gallente guy trying to pretend he can do something with rails(he cant). blasters are such short range that literally anyone who can kite u out of web/scram range(which is mostly everyone because everyone is in minmatar ships now) has got your number. blasters and rails both have no place in fleet warfare. blasters although doing good dps on paper it is not that great or even less damage then autocannons after the matar person switches their ammo to one of your resist holes (EM/EXP).gallente are very vulnerable to neuts and blasters use tons of cap especially with t2 ammo ... so much that you cant even run your guns by themselves and be stable. something minmatar never have to worry about. NO PLACE IN PVP.

so what have we learned? gallente ships are terrible at almost every aspect of PVE and PVP.

in order to remedy this we need alot more then just a 5-10% dmg increase.

Gallente have to be the fastest ships in the game by far or blasters will always fail at their role ... this is the only fix for blasters.

all races need to have selectable dmg type ammo or at the very least hybrids should be only ones to get it.. absolutly no reason winmatar should get it on their ammo and have their guns use no cap as well. giving them 2 advantages over hybrids with no drawbacks besides a paltry 5-10% less dps which is negligable after the selectable dmg type and completely irrelevant when the other guy can hit you outside of your maximum tackle and blaster range with his turrets. (Barrage or scorch vs Null)

Artillery needs to be nerfed ... its Alpha is way out of line compared to other races alpha capability. so much so that dps on long range turrets doesnt mean a thing anymore ... the big alpha is far more important. dps becomes irrelavent once you get into the area where ships are easily getting 1 shotted by an arty ship or 1 volley'd in a fleet enviroment. if you got 10 maelstroms doing 10k volleys each they are effectivly doing 100k DPS for the first shot ... and since the guy who is getting shot is most likely getting 1 volleyed then that 1 second is the only second that mattered.

if you think dps is more important then alpha you would be wrong .... i saw a tengu get 1 shotted by a tornado quite easily(t1 guns) http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=11747101

but im pretty sure the tengu that got popped had more dps then the arty tornado.... it did not help him .....and the tornado got a perfect kill... no damage taken and killed tengu in 1 shot it does not get any more lopsided then that and dps was/is irrelevent in the fight. that comparison gets far more lopsided in fleet enviroments.Not to mention taking logistics ships out of any fight.... so much so that people are using artillery on abaddon fleets and such(this should be glaringly game-breaking when people start doing that.) i made a post about it when i was completely drunk and didnt do any of the correct math for it but this is only way we are going to bring winmatar to the same level as the other races ... right now we are playing winmatar online literally .... just look at the stats for what people are flying and killing other people with ...aside from the drake 90% or more are minmatar ships and turrets dominating the killboards and statistics. its not even a comparison at this point.

Artillery's alpha is so overpowered it effectively bypasses concord's entire purpose lol in addition to making logi irrelevent ..... this is an example of some of my alliance mates testing out the new tornado's at a popular mission hub http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=11747101 .... 5 t3's + paladin's getting alpha'd by just a few battlecruisers with t1 guns causing almost 6 billion isk damage in bout an hour or 2. .. lol ..... too easy and very sad as we actually made quite a bit of money doing it at the expense of the common highsec missioner. and i'm sure this is not in CCP's best interest to keep it this way as i believe a few of the guys probably rage quited and CCP lost subscription fee's all the while we are playing for free because we bought plex with the loot =)

if CCP can not get this right this time i am sure their will be alot of people leaving this game. especially gallente pilots who are rightfully getting a little jaded about not being able to use their ships in any high level PVE or PVP Scenario's.
Fade Azura
Weaponized Autists Cartel
#1565 - 2012-01-04 19:22:52 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Making blasterboat able to kill kiting boat would just mess up everything ; the "problem" here is that kiting boat are the hardcounter (in some way) to blaster boat. The only way to fix that is to make kiting boat very bad at what they can do which is obviously idiot.

I think many people should stop thinking that blaster boat should kill vagabond or cynabal at every encounter without any sacrifice. A working blaster ship is not necessarily a vagabond or cynabal killer. Taking these extreme particular case to say that blasters dont work is idiot.


my response to this is

a blaster boat being able to run down and kill a kiting boat is how it SHOULD BE. and will not break anything. right now we are seeing the opposite end of that which is far worse.

a minmatar ship that can outrun anything and still hit you at warp disruptor ranges 20-30k is far more unbalanced. a good minmatar pilot right now can simply toy with his blaster boat victim at 20-30km and stay out of scram/webs while still doing good damage and an escape route if he so chooses.

Right now the only way for the blaster boat to kill the mimatar boat is if the minmatar pilot messed up and allowed the blaster boat to juke his orbit and overheat to land a web/scram ... this is FACT. and even if the minmatar pilot cant break the tank on blaster boat for some reason he can just disengage. NO RISK AT ALL

and thats one of the reason u see people flying tons of minmatar and drakes as they can apply their dmg from a distance and are fast enough(usually) to stay out of tackle. and anything that can tackle them(provided they are fighting at range like they should be and avoiding heavy tackle) they can usually kill with a small amount of effort. they effectively dont have to commit to a fight. as we all know unless your a bait ship .... getting tackled usually means your next primary and are about to die and is bad.

A blaster boat being really fast and charging in to get a tackle is pretty much a kamikaze/suicide run anyway .... he has to do that or he is 100% dead. and he will most likely get tackled right back for his brave but stupid racial tactics. no other race's ships in the game require you to put yourself in such a vulnerable position to fill their role.

and not to mention if the skirmish boat landed a couple of good hits before he got tackled he still has a good chance to win the brawl as the blaster boat likely did almost 0 damage before he got a tackle on his target(if he even can do that) and the dps diffrence between blasters and other short range turrets will not make up for even that.

so again a blaster boat being the fastest ship on grid isnt overpowered at all. and it wouldnt change a thing for fleet fights as 10 myrmidons trying to run down 10 canes/drakes the canes/drakes are gunna win 100% of the time as they can kill the myrms before they can even get tackles on a few of them and the myrms even if they were faster cant apply their dps as a group cause their blaster range WILL NOT ALLOW IT. where the canes can all apply the majority of their fleets damage at any one target. same with a drake and that what makes them so succesful. on battleships the disparity is far worse in fleet engagments.

even medium blaster boats you can pretty much just web them at 10-11k and stay at that range and dominate them cause the blaster range is that bad.

medium neutrons with Void only have 3.4 optimal and 3.1k falloff
medium neutrons with AM only have 2.3 optimal and 6.3k falloff
medium neutrons with Null only have 5.6 optimal and 7.8k falloff

so even with the longest range ammo for the biggest medium blasters your only doing like 20% of your blaster damage at best at 10km. if you get caught in the open by a skirmisher boat of equal skill the blaster boat is 100% dead everytime. no wonder why u rarely see gallente ships in nullsec. they have no place there besides a few specialized ships (Arazu/Lachesis)

way to easily kited at those ranges and ships that use blasters as a primary weapon system need to be the fastest(by alot) to make up for that AND have a much higher dps then whoever they are going after to make it a balanced fight. right now we are not seeing balanced fights ... and a gallente pilot who gets alot of kills solo is the only true measure of skill a pilot can show.
Fade Azura
Weaponized Autists Cartel
#1566 - 2012-01-04 21:46:27 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Justin Cody wrote:
Blaster damage is currently awesome and acceptable.



While dps by it self is becoming interesting, and interesting doesn't mean good ! -a fücking shotgun on his op range should just head shot or balls shot you each time you're in that range, so no the total dps/alpha is not enough considering those ships still can't get in range to apply that POOR dps.

The day I'll get out with some proteus and be able to scare a single cynabal pilot not afk in null, then I'd say blasters and gallente stuff are probably useful.

W8, let me try to explain it differently.

Cyna with 425mm auto canons and regular fit with barrage hits up to 55/60 km, using faction point can just disrupt you at 30km and put shots on you with shortest range/biggest dps ammo up to 35km.

Your poor proteus with it's ubber gazillions eft dps, just good to gank stuff in belts will not only be incapable to catch it but he'll be happy if it ever manages to put 10dps on it.

Let's talk about speed ok? - heu no, never mind, let's forget speed.

W8, "T3 is not faction stuff blah blah blah"

Right, I'm just telling you a single T1 CRUISER, faction yes but still T1, even badly fitted/piloted will kick your ass your eft gazillions dps ubber blaster Proteus.


this is correct .... the proteus is a perfect example of gallente fail racial mechanics .... even with null u can barely hit out to web range ... technically any ship that is faster then the proteus and can hit them outside 20+km(faction scram range) will completly dominate it .... regardless of ship or fitting as long as they fulfill the 2 requirements to beat a blaster boat.(more speed and dps application past the maximum range of blasters) ..... and if the proteus somehow magically had 10,000 dps coming from its blasters it wouldnt change anything about that scenario and the proteus being completely helpless.
Jaigar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1567 - 2012-01-04 21:58:45 UTC
I think we need to define "kite". It SHOULD be outruning your opponent long enough to kill him before he kills you. It shouldn't be the inability of your opponent to ever reach you. However, the later is how it works in EVE.

I know the ATs aren't a great example of actual pvp, but think of the tengu kite teams: they had to split up in order to prevent a catastrophic failure if they were caught. This was only because of the limited size of the arena. Some did get caught, but left a huge gap between each other so the other team had a long trek between targets.

Because of the nature of kite, if a tackler ever does get in range to tackle, you can just warp off. There is no need to split up your group.

I think this is closely tied to interceptor balance. There needs to be a way to catch and hold long enough to at least pick one off.
Fade Azura
Weaponized Autists Cartel
#1568 - 2012-01-05 02:17:49 UTC
I am also going to add that there is an obvious side benefit to using autocannons over other short range turrets as they get a much higher increase in additional range from a tracking enchancer compared to their racial counterparts. i just did this comparison on a seperate thread to prove to the people there that yes indeed TE's give more of a benefit to AC then Pulse or blasters.

its a well known fact that TE's benefit projectiles more then anything else .... lets do a comparison to see of this is true.

i might add that this has been done several times already but i am doing it again and checking my calculator twice and using equal samples to make sure it is an accurate representation.



Hurricane 425mm Autocannon II with EMP + 1 TE = 13.3% optimal increase / 33.3% Falloff increase. TV= 46.6%

Myrmidon Hvy Neutron Blaster II with AM + 1 TE = 11.5% optimal increase / 28.6% Falloff increase. TV= 40.1%

Harbinger Heavy Pulse Laser II with Multi + 1 TE = 14.6% optimal increase / 23.1% Falloff increase. TV= 37.7%

TV= True Value of overall ranges percentage increase




All skills at level 5 using same gun type and ammo type for the respective race's ships with no optimal or falloff bonuses on the ships and same range penalty on all 3 ammo so this list is a perfect comparison.

as you can see the increase is purely based on the Turrets original Optimal and falloff numbers.

the turrets with the higher total original optimal+falloff numbers recieve a greater benefit inherently. this is multiplicative as you add more tracking enhancers but the increase remains these static percentages that i have listed here with all samples being equal .... if we add the optimal+falloff percentages we will see the true value comparison of overall added benefit per turret system per tracking enhancer. and also the overall weakness of other short range turrets in overall range compared to Autocannons.




in conclusion ....

425mm AC II with +1 TE is recieving 23.6% more effect then a heavy pulse II with +1 TE and a 13.7% more effect then the heavy neutron blaster II +1 TE. in terms of additional ranges created by a TE. this is quite a significant advantage. and is well known to people that understand the numbers and gives minmatar ships a much greater skirmish ability coupled with their fastest speed = OP

the 425mm AC II is the superior weapon system in terms of range and in terms of increase of range due to tracking enhancers in comparison to its racial counterparts.
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#1569 - 2012-01-05 06:13:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsubutai
Fade Azura wrote:
nonsense

You see, falloff and optimal are entirely equivalent and so it makes perfect sense to just add the two together and act as though the resulting sum has some kind of meaning.
Fade Azura
Weaponized Autists Cartel
#1570 - 2012-01-05 10:51:06 UTC
well since optimal+falloff together are the total sum of your effective engagement range it means quite alot obviously as thats what determines your ability to hit your enemy at diffrent ranges. a higher total means a better engagment profile regardless. a ship with 10km optimal +10km falloff +20 obviously has a better engagement profile then one that has +5km optimal and 10km Falloff. +15

this is easy to see and does not take a mathematics wizard. stop posting if you cant even understand the basics of it. i see no flaws in my comparisons and my results are the same as everyone else that properly compared them in the past .... this has been done like 20 times before and is already proven long ago.
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#1571 - 2012-01-05 11:06:45 UTC
Fade Azura wrote:
well since optimal+falloff together are the total sum of your effective engagement range

That's ridiculous. At optimal + falloff, you're doing ~40% of your nominal dps, which means you're well outside your "effective engagement range." If you wanted a measure of the range at which you're still applying a respectable proportion of your dps, you need to look at optimal + half falloff or thereabouts (at which point you're only losing ~25% of your raw dps). All things being equal, optimal is approximately twice as 'good' as falloff for applying damage at range.

But hey, keep on adding apples to oranges if you like.
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1572 - 2012-01-05 11:24:55 UTC
I'm at a point where i would like to request a thread lock :p
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1573 - 2012-01-05 13:42:14 UTC
thoth rothschild wrote:
I'm at a point where i would like to request a thread lock :p



the tread has since long ago nothing to do with the topic we are just keeping it alive till ccp gives a respons what will be the upcoming changes to hybrids

and they promised to do so this month
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#1574 - 2012-01-05 14:04:25 UTC
tEcHnOkRaT wrote:
...we are just keeping it alive till ccp gives a respons what will be the upcoming changes to hybrids

and they promised to do so this month


Super interesting stuff related to hybrids rebalance
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#1575 - 2012-01-05 14:54:57 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Making blasterboat able to kill kiting boat would just mess up everything ; the "problem" here is that kiting boat are the hardcounter (in some way) to blaster boat. The only way to fix that is to make kiting boat very bad at what they can do which is obviously idiot.


Obvious it's obvious, the blaster boat shouldn't be able to kill kitting ships at each encounter but why should kitting ships be able to apply so many dps have the ability to gtfo and have far too much tank?

Quote:
I think many people should stop thinking that blaster boat should kill vagabond or cynabal at every encounter without any sacrifice. A working blaster ship is not necessarily a vagabond or cynabal killer. Taking these extreme particular case to say that blasters dont work is idiot.



What sacrifice are you talking about?
Vagabond or Cynabal with meta4 MWD go at least 15 to 60% faster every other cruiser/hac can ever go, what's your sacrifice?

Vaga and Cyna are hardly cap stable? -funny blaster ships have never bean and we're used to, so what's your sacrifice?

Vaga and Cyna use their speed, have capless guns that can track/hit far to good, apply far too much dmg at those distances (dmg selection is certainly one of their biggest advantages) and all this using their top speed, where's your sacrifice?

Now tell us all about sacrifices and how good your uber blaster boat is after some sacrifice to catch his prey without many other minmatar setups helping him do the job?
Also tell us for this whole time where you were just useless waiting other to do the job for you, wouldn't you be better even in a rupy or a trasher? -my answer is yes.
Archare
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1576 - 2012-01-05 16:41:10 UTC
Well for some more news on blasters....

LIVE ON TEST SERVER

Null ammo range buff increased from 25% to 40%
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1577 - 2012-01-05 18:17:04 UTC
Archare wrote:
Well for some more news on blasters....

LIVE ON TEST SERVER

Null ammo range buff increased from 25% to 40%



now is that for falloff and optimal or just one or the other?

lol i tried to lead sisi but the last time i loaded the test server on this comp (its my spare) was back when i was testing tyranis... lol

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1578 - 2012-01-05 19:03:47 UTC
15% extra range is not enough
thats like 3km extra effective range
and like 5 km more effective range with 2 traking enchancers fitted

so ur still out of range and unable to catch anything

very dissapointing not worth it even to start any testing
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1579 - 2012-01-05 21:36:37 UTC
tEcHnOkRaT wrote:
15% extra range is not enough
thats like 3km extra effective range
and like 5 km more effective range with 2 traking enchancers fitted

so ur still out of range and unable to catch anything

very dissapointing not worth it even to start any testing



Agreed.

Base ranges of blasters is so short, there really is no way for Null to compete with Barrage/Scorch without adding 50% to both optimal and falloff, and that's just for starters. Adding 40% to only one of the two results in the exact same problem.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#1580 - 2012-01-05 22:42:36 UTC
Current 25% is applied to optimal and falloff. Why wouldn't 40% increase apply to both as well?

It'll push Heavy Nuetron blaster opt+fallof range (with three TE2's) past the magic 24 km warp disruptor II range. That's all I ask for.