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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

First post First post
Author
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#1521 - 2011-12-23 20:10:29 UTC
History Son!:

As long as the community will not support a increase in medium and to a lesser extent large blaster range. Most Gal ships will never be considered viable. Solo or 2 - 4 pilot engagements are not done by the mojority of pilots ingame. So having ships focused for that purpose seems ********. You know, when most Amarr or Min ships can do the same and more. Even in the past. The most used Gal ships were ships that could be used in fleets with rail-gun (rail-gun-Megathron, Lachesis, Onieros, Arazu, rail-gun-Deimos). Blaster Megathrons had the same issues they do now. Pulse lasers were just better compared to all other turrets. So there was never a time since 2007 were they were useful comparatively. Every battleship could use 90% stasis webifier, but some had better projected and applied damage and considerably more velocity. So even the time blaster ships were considered the most viable. Pulse lasers were considered superior. However, the one turret most pilots considered blasters were superior to @ that time was projectiles.

Why? @ the time. Most projectile ships were limited to being effective in warp scrambler range. Certain ships like the Vagabond, sliepnir, Huginn and Muninn could use Min ships superior velocity. The Tempest was also and still able to out manoeuvre less mobile ships in a armour or shield variant.

So other than those specific ships. Every other Min ship operated under warp scrambler range. Min ships had superior mobility compared to Cal, Amarr and Gal. However even if the could out run every other ship in a specific class. Auto-cannons could only viably operate under warp scrambler range. Min had damage selection. However the ammunition was not as focused as it is now. Projectiles did not use capacitor then and pulse lasers were still considered supiroer. Even close range.Gal ships have always had a significant advantage in terms of defense in every class and damage. Not to mention most @ the time had nice graphs on the difference in damage of a Megathron compared to a Tempest. You know, to prove auto-cannons were not viable @ all. Gal ships could do everything most Min ships could, but better...

So what change? The changes in projectile damage was only 5 - 7%. The slight increase in base falloff of mid and high tier auto-cannons was slight. More focused damage ammunition did not yeild that much of a difference. Many had pretty graphs @ the time. Suggesting the changes were a "Joke". At-least in that regard they were correct. At-least to a certain extent... All the changes so far amounted to a significant increase in projectile applied damage under warp scambler range (once you factior in more focused damage and slight base falloff increase). Still, it didn't change much. Although artillery became overpowered compared to other long range turrets. At-least under 100km. Auto-cannons remained the same and apparently long range fleet engagements was becoming obsolete. (The stars seemed to align for the Minmatar race)

Then CCP listen to a handful in the community who suggested changes to tracking enhancers. Which was to help artillery. That was all it took. You could effectively take away all other changes, with the exception of base increase to autocannon falloff and you would have what we have now.

Min were now viable in fleet engagements (Gal were left behind as the only race that operated and focused close range only). Something primarily limited only to long range battleships and 3 - 4 T2 ships. Before, Min ships couldn't superior mobility because, what would that matter if auto-cannons could only work close range (This is what those pushing for increase Gal velocity don't seem to understand)? Using shield setups would increase mobility, but @ a cost of significant reduction in defence. Autocannons could only work close range @ the time. A armour plate would yield more effective hit-points, while maintaining most of a ships damage (Hurricane) and minmatar ships still had a advantage in velocity.

CCP did not intend for auto-cannons to be used outside of warp scrambler range @ the time of the projectile changes. CCP did intend to make artillery more effective in terms of range, compared to rail-gun and beam laser @ the time. The changes to tracking enhancers was intended to increase artillery, but not autocannons. Funny thing is. For the crowd that wanted ballance. The game was more balanced then than it is now. You had 2 races focused for close range engagements (Min and Gal) and 2 races focused for fleet engagements (Caldari and Amarr). Now it's just Gal focused for close range engagements and the other races for close range and fleet engagements.

Serious question. What would happen if CCP increased medium and larger blaster range? Everything else would remain the same. CCP just decided to introduce a significant increase to tracking computers. The values would be close to autocannons in terms or projected and applied damage, but with a balance of optimal and falloff. Min ships would still be more mobile and Gal would still be able to use armour. This is what pulse lasers are able to do @ the moment, but alot more viable. Being able to kite a single Gal ship would become very difficult, if not impossible and Min would still be able to disengage.

In one go the whole issue surrounding blaster would be solved. Or! CCP should just nerf medium and large autocanons falloff. So tracking enhancers will not effect those values as much. Bringing Minmatar back down to Gal engagement ranges. The other option is insane damage output, but that would be game breaking. I can already think of amusing ways to abuse such a weapon. Most of the other suggestions including the "just increase speed" crowd will not work. It sounds great and I'm for it. If only to show Gal ships would still be last choice given Min, Armarr or Cal are not available. Coupling speed with range would be another matter...

-proxyyyy
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1522 - 2011-12-23 20:33:41 UTC
m0cking bird wrote:
History Son!:

As long as the community will not support a increase in medium and to a lesser extent large blaster range. Most Gal ships will never be considered viable. Solo or 2 - 4 pilot engagements are not done by the mojority of pilots ingame. So having ships focused for that purpose seems ********. You know, when most Amarr or Min ships can do the same and more. Even in the past. The most used Gal ships were ships that could be used in fleets with rail-gun (rail-gun-Megathron, Lachesis, Onieros, Arazu, rail-gun-Deimos). Blaster Megathrons had the same issues they do now. Pulse lasers were just better compared to all other turrets. So there was never a time since 2007 were they were useful comparatively. Every battleship could use 90% stasis webifier, but some had better projected and applied damage and considerably more velocity. So even the time blaster ships were considered the most viable. Pulse lasers were considered superior. However, the one turret most pilots considered blasters were superior to @ that time was projectiles.

Why? @ the time. Most projectile ships were limited to being effective in warp scrambler range. Certain ships like the Vagabond, sliepnir, Huginn and Muninn could use Min ships superior velocity. The Tempest was also and still able to out manoeuvre less mobile ships in a armour or shield variant.

So other than those specific ships. Every other Min ship operated under warp scrambler range. Min ships had superior mobility compared to Cal, Amarr and Gal. However even if the could out run every other ship in a specific class. Auto-cannons could only viably operate under warp scrambler range. Min had damage selection. However the ammunition was not as focused as it is now. Projectiles did not use capacitor then and pulse lasers were still considered supiroer. Even close range.Gal ships have always had a significant advantage in terms of defense in every class and damage. Not to mention most @ the time had nice graphs on the difference in damage of a Megathron compared to a Tempest. You know, to prove auto-cannons were not viable @ all. Gal ships could do everything most Min ships could, but better...

So what change? The changes in projectile damage was only 5 - 7%. The slight increase in base falloff of mid and high tier auto-cannons was slight. More focused damage ammunition did not yeild that much of a difference. Many had pretty graphs @ the time. Suggesting the changes were a "Joke". At-least in that regard they were correct. At-least to a certain extent... All the changes so far amounted to a significant increase in projectile applied damage under warp scambler range (once you factior in more focused damage and slight base falloff increase). Still, it didn't change much. Although artillery became overpowered compared to other long range turrets. At-least under 100km. Auto-cannons remained the same and apparently long range fleet engagements was becoming obsolete. (The stars seemed to align for the Minmatar race)

Then CCP listen to a handful in the community who suggested changes to tracking enhancers. Which was to help artillery. That was all it took. You could effectively take away all other changes, with the exception of base increase to autocannon falloff and you would have what we have now.

Min were now viable in fleet engagements (Gal were left behind as the only race that operated and focused close range only). Something primarily limited only to long range battleships and 3 - 4 T2 ships. Before, Min ships couldn't superior mobility because, what would that matter if auto-cannons could only work close range (This is what those pushing for increase Gal velocity don't seem to understand)? Using shield setups would increase mobility, but @ a cost of significant reduction in defence. Autocannons could only work close range @ the time. A armour plate would yield more effective hit-points, while maintaining most of a ships damage (Hurricane) and minmatar ships still had a advantage in velocity.

CCP did not intend for auto-cannons to be used outside of warp scrambler range @ the time of the projectile changes. CCP did intend to make artillery more effective in terms of range, compared to rail-gun and beam laser @ the time. The changes to tracking enhancers was intended to increase artillery, but not autocannons. Funny thing is. For the crowd that wanted ballance. The game was more balanced then than it is now. You had 2 races focused for close range engagements (Min and Gal) and 2 races focused for fleet engagements (Caldari and Amarr). Now it's just Gal focused for close range engagements and the other races for close range and fleet engagements.

Serious question. What would happen if CCP increased medium and larger blaster range? Everything else would remain the same. CCP just decided to introduce a significant increase to tracking computers. The values would be close to autocannons in terms or projected and applied damage, but with a balance of optimal and falloff. Min ships would still be more mobile and Gal would still be able to use armour. This is what pulse lasers are able to do @ the moment, but alot more viable. Being able to kite a single Gal ship would become very difficult, if not impossible and Min would still be able to disengage.

In one go the whole issue surrounding blaster would be solved. Or! CCP should just nerf medium and large autocanons falloff. So tracking enhancers will not effect those values as much. Bringing Minmatar back down to Gal engagement ranges. The other option is insane damage output, but that would be game breaking. I can already think of amusing ways to abuse such a weapon. Most of the other suggestions including the "just increase speed" crowd will not work. It sounds great and I'm for it. If only to show Gal ships would still be last choice given Min, Armarr or Cal are not available. Coupling speed with range would be another matter...

-proxyyyy


+1
Rebirth Mining Director
#1523 - 2011-12-23 20:51:13 UTC
m0cking bird wrote:
GIANT WALL OF TEXT

You know, you could have just said nerf winmatar. I don't think anyone in this thread would disagree with you.

Director of The God Squad's mining division. Now recruiting Orca pilots!

Rutuli
Rizoma records
#1524 - 2011-12-26 06:03:08 UTC
Might be out of topic, but after a few anoying fights against serpentis, i realized that dampeners arent just to shut down target capabilty and shoot something without getting shooted, its also a good tactic to force the enemy to enter into blaster range
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1525 - 2011-12-26 07:12:37 UTC  |  Edited by: tEcHnOkRaT
Rutuli wrote:
Might be out of topic, but after a few anoying fights against serpentis, i realized that dampeners arent just to shut down target capabilty and shoot something without getting shooted, its also a good tactic to force the enemy to enter into blaster range



would u enter into blaster range and leave ur optimal compfortzone with ewar on u and most likely more ewar when u close in if u had the chance to simply retreat ??

dont be smarter then u can handle :D
Rutuli
Rizoma records
#1526 - 2011-12-26 07:31:42 UTC
tEcHnOkRaT wrote:
Rutuli wrote:
Might be out of topic, but after a few anoying fights against serpentis, i realized that dampeners arent just to shut down target capabilty and shoot something without getting shooted, its also a good tactic to force the enemy to enter into blaster range



would u enter into blaster range and leave ur optimal compfortzone with ewar on u and most likely more ewar when u close in if u had the chance to simply retreat ??

dont be smarter then u can handle :D


The point its you can rush into close range, so blaster can actually work, without losing half of your hp inthe way when you are being kited. I know dampeners are actually useless since you need a pair in a ship with bonuses for it to get a good result and you still exposed vs multiple targets. But it fit gallente doctrine someway...

Pd: sry for the bad english, its 4:30am here and im at work QQ
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1527 - 2011-12-26 07:45:03 UTC
Rutuli wrote:
tEcHnOkRaT wrote:
Rutuli wrote:
Might be out of topic, but after a few anoying fights against serpentis, i realized that dampeners arent just to shut down target capabilty and shoot something without getting shooted, its also a good tactic to force the enemy to enter into blaster range



would u enter into blaster range and leave ur optimal compfortzone with ewar on u and most likely more ewar when u close in if u had the chance to simply retreat ??

dont be smarter then u can handle :D


The point its you can rush into close range, so blaster can actually work, without losing half of your hp inthe way when you are being kited. I know dampeners are actually useless since you need a pair in a ship with bonuses for it to get a good result and you still exposed vs multiple targets. But it fit gallente doctrine someway...

Pd: sry for the bad english, its 4:30am here and im at work QQ


as u already said its useless. and fallowing this "gallente doctrine" of urs, open the market window and look for another ship when u rush at this oponent :) , cuz most likely he will be faster then u are

and as i can predict ur argumant by fitting some speed mods, the rest of ur tank is lost as well
Rutuli
Rizoma records
#1528 - 2011-12-26 08:02:48 UTC
I know it doesnt work,im trying to trow some ideas of how make blasters usable without just asking for speed, range and basicly just changing the whole deal to turn blasters into ACs and gallente ships into speed devils.
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1529 - 2011-12-26 11:43:07 UTC
Rutuli wrote:
I know it doesnt work,im trying to trow some ideas of how make blasters usable without just asking for speed, range and basicly just changing the whole deal to turn blasters into ACs and gallente ships into speed devils.


whats wrong about making the galente similar to minmatar ?

camon just step outside ur shell and start using ur head its not there to prevent the rain from falling in ur throat
and this rock paper scisors thinking was nice when pc games just started

imagine if USA would use a military doctrinbe or a weapon system that is far behind the russians or chinese one wouldnt they try to adapt it and improve it ? or reinvent a new one that can best counter therese ?

and the current galente way dosnt work for years now. so u think they wouldnt try to adapt ?
that an openminded democratic society would keep things as they are even if they dont work ?
dont u think they would try at first to copy that what is working and later improve and change it, to best counterattack ?


i dont wont a game like wow i wont my games as complex as chess on roids
Clara Sprudel
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1530 - 2011-12-26 14:49:04 UTC
tEcHnOkRaT wrote:
Rutuli wrote:
I know it doesnt work,im trying to trow some ideas of how make blasters usable without just asking for speed, range and basicly just changing the whole deal to turn blasters into ACs and gallente ships into speed devils.


whats wrong about making the galente similar to minmatar ?

camon just step outside ur shell and start using ur head its not there to prevent the rain from falling in ur throat
and this rock paper scisors thinking was nice when pc games just started

imagine if USA would use a military doctrinbe or a weapon system that is far behind the russians or chinese one wouldnt they try to adapt it and improve it ? or reinvent a new one that can best counter therese ?

and the current galente way dosnt work for years now. so u think they wouldnt try to adapt ?
that an openminded democratic society would keep things as they are even if they dont work ?
dont u think they would try at first to copy that what is working and later improve and change it, to best counterattack ?


i dont wont a game like wow i wont my games as complex as chess on roids


I fully agree with this point. If someone would keep it the way it is than it is Amarr. A society where you have one leader and nobody is allowed to question decisions would lead to such a situation.
But an openminded democratic society would allways allow better ideas to remove bad practices.
In reallity Gal would not exist becouse Caldari and Amarr would have killed every Gal ship and taken over their space. Apparently they could not do that becouse Winmatar protects the Gallente romantic idealists :)

About rock, paper and scisors.
I really do not want such a game. Who wins this is only a question of fortune and decisions. This is not what we should aim for. I want intergallactic 3D chess! Chess has nothing to do with luck, it has to do with decisions you make becouse you use your brain. Rock, paper, scisors is for nobrainer becouse the stupid has the same chances like the skilled one.
Rutuli
Rizoma records
#1531 - 2011-12-26 19:55:01 UTC
why would you want 2 races to be the same, fly winmatar and win
rock papers and scisors is part of the design of the game, still in your hands to make decisions to help you win against your counter, and is not a 1vs1 game
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1532 - 2011-12-26 22:16:44 UTC
Rutuli wrote:
why would you want 2 races to be the same, fly winmatar and win
rock papers and scisors is part of the design of the game, still in your hands to make decisions to help you win against your counter, and is not a 1vs1 game


u know when u pop into a discusion, read at least the previuos 10 pages before making any coments,
cuz it makes u look foolish otherwise

and yes i can understand u are here only becouse u wont the minmatar to stay as they are.
Rawls Canardly
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1533 - 2011-12-27 04:48:01 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
NOW. on to hybrids.
Railguns - fairly nice, they perform well in PvE, and in PvP given the right setup. I'd suggest ramping up the "no-warp-to" bubble limits from 150km to 250km, to envelop railgun operation ranges. this would make caldari optimal bonuses more viable,

Blasters - The guns outperform at operating range (1km-5km, mediums on a moa testbed with all three turret types) by about 100-200dps, which is quite good. The problem was never that, however. The problem is getting within 5km of your target is virtually impossible in the blaster-based hulls. Virtually anything a blaster boat can catch can usually beat it's brains in (lack of tank, or simply beating on it on it's way into range), and anything it can't catch, well... either gets away, or picks it apart at range.

I still support my MWD speed bonus idea, (2% to 5% speed bonus per level of frig/cruiser/whatever on gal gunboats) as it would only be useful for plunging in straight into scram range, at which point that advantage disappears.... as opposed to an outright speed/agility buff, which is useful in and out of scram range. Try it on the thorax (it's current mwd bonus is useless anyway) and see what you get. I'd also DECREASE (you heard me) it's agility. (basically, a thorax would do 2.5k-3k m/s, straight at the foe. Basically the berserker role blasters are meant for.)

I'd do the thorax that way, and I'd be tempted to do the brutix(with or without repper bonus, I'd keep it honestly) , talos(drop the tracking bonus or add a third), and megathron(again, tracking or a third) as well. frigates need no help.

In a nutshell: Rails are meh, blasters are still fail (but none of it is the weapons fault themselves).


Edit: Off topic part removed, CCP Phantom
Rutuli
Rizoma records
#1534 - 2011-12-27 06:21:09 UTC
And even if you manage to get into range, you probably will have half hp.
Clara Sprudel
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1535 - 2011-12-27 12:43:12 UTC
Rutuli wrote:
And even if you manage to get into range, you probably will have half hp.


Yes but once in range the enemy should have problems to hit you becouse of tracking issues and your high transversal speed.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#1536 - 2011-12-27 16:02:30 UTC
Clara Sprudel wrote:
Rutuli wrote:
And even if you manage to get into range, you probably will have half hp.


Yes but once in range the enemy should have problems to hit you becouse of tracking issues and your high transversal speed.


I just bolded the interesting part of you comment to say that it's a big part of the problem, not only they hit/apply high dmg from far distances but they have no issues with tracking at shortest ranges, on top of that they will hit for 110% dmg just like blasters.


LeHarfang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1537 - 2011-12-30 10:02:09 UTC  |  Edited by: LeHarfang
Tanya Powers wrote:
Clara Sprudel wrote:
Rutuli wrote:
And even if you manage to get into range, you probably will have half hp.


Yes but once in range the enemy should have problems to hit you becouse of tracking issues and your high transversal speed.


I just bolded the interesting part of you comment to say that it's a big part of the problem, not only they hit/apply high dmg from far distances but they have no issues with tracking at shortest ranges, on top of that they will hit for 110% dmg just like blasters.




Agreed. Trying to hit a target thats 1 meter from you with a sniper is ridiculous if you can use a shotgun. Or at least, the shotgun should be far easier to aim a close range than a sniper rifle which basically would only get extremely lucky shots at close range (like 1 on 100 shots). I mean, with the hybrid ammo with the most damage, you also get the lowest range which is like 5km, 8 with falloff. Thats even closer than scram range, that's ships physically hitting each other close range.

Now try to get in that range in the slow armored Gallente BSs (the domi speed is atrocious to name an example) when webbed. Just forget it. The ennemy BSs, and smaller, will always outrun you as they run from you the other way (if he continue shooting at you) or warp out.

I mean, i understand having a good armor tank to get close to the ennemy, but if you cant get close in the first place, the whole tactic is pointless

Also, blasters in PvE? Its a waste of time pretty much since no NPCs will come close enough for your blasters to hit them. I mean, yes they are a good support for heavy ansd sentry drones to pick off the little frigates that comes close and annoy you, when in a Gal drone boat like the domi, but thats about it. Useless as a main DPS because of range. Tracking speed bonuses are good for gunboats like the mega, hyperion or talos but they still have the problem of getting in range.



Edit: One way to solve this problem would be having ships take more damage from the rear (in the engines) and less on the front. That way ourunning you the opposite way would'nt be the best solution-

nevermind, you cant even shoot them in the first place. :/
Clara Sprudel
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1538 - 2011-12-30 12:01:35 UTC
LeHarfang wrote:
[quote=Tanya Powers]
Agreed. Trying to hit a target thats 1 meter from you with a sniper is ridiculous if you can use a shotgun. Or at least, the shotgun should be far easier to aim a close range than a sniper rifle which basically would only get extremely lucky shots at close range (like 1 on 100 shots). I mean, with the hybrid ammo with the most damage, you also get the lowest range which is like 5km, 8 with falloff. Thats even closer than scram range, that's ships physically hitting each other close range.

Now try to get in that range in the slow armored Gallente BSs (the domi speed is atrocious to name an example) when webbed. Just forget it. The ennemy BSs, and smaller, will always outrun you as they run from you the other way (if he continue shooting at you) or warp out.

I mean, i understand having a good armor tank to get close to the ennemy, but if you cant get close in the first place, the whole tactic is pointless

Also, blasters in PvE? Its a waste of time pretty much since no NPCs will come close enough for your blasters to hit them. I mean, yes they are a good support for heavy ansd sentry drones to pick off the little frigates that comes close and annoy you, when in a Gal drone boat like the domi, but thats about it. Useless as a main DPS because of range. Tracking speed bonuses are good for gunboats like the mega, hyperion or talos but they still have the problem of getting in range.



Edit: One way to solve this problem would be having ships take more damage from the rear (in the engines) and less on the front. That way ourunning you the opposite way would'nt be the best solution-

nevermind, you cant even shoot them in the first place. :/


I agree with you that the Gal strategy is broken and to fix hybrids they need to fix the game mechanics in many aspects.
Lets hope CCP will come back with a good idea after the vacation :)
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#1539 - 2011-12-31 13:05:33 UTC
1 Drake 167782
2 Maelstrom 146771
3 Hurricane 115519
4 Abaddon 68304
5 Tengu 51712
6 Tornado 40193
7 Tempest 32236
8 Scimitar 32090
9 Armageddon 31982
10 Sabre 26232
11 Hound 24679
12 Cynabal 22131
13 Huginn 21608
14 Vagabond 18972
15 Thrasher 18746
16 Rapier 18163
17 Rifter 17090
18 Loki 16740
19 Zealot 16144
20 Oracle 16093


1 Heavy Missile Launcher II 70717
2 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II 46919
3 425mm AutoCannon II 36688
4 Mega Pulse Laser II 21519
5 200mm AutoCannon II 19261
6 720mm Howitzer Artillery II 18047
7 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II 16830
8 150mm Light AutoCannon II 15065
9 1400mm Gallium Cannon 14855
10 1400mm Prototype Siege Cannon 13304
11 125mm Gatling AutoCannon II 12552
12 800mm Repeating Artillery II 11783
13 Heavy Pulse Laser II 11507
14 'Arbalest' Siege Missile Launcher 7557
15 'Malkuth' Heavy Missile Launcher I 5950
16 Heavy Neutron Blaster II 5754
17 425mm Railgun II 5397
18 Light Neutron Blaster II 5394
19 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I 5128
20 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I 4691

Latest figures. The novelty rokh has disappeared as expected and not a single hybrid using ship appears on the top 20. If anything, the hybrid using ships are going backwards in terms of representation. On the weapons list the total combined presence of rails and blasters amounts to a pathetic 4.7%.
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1540 - 2011-12-31 14:17:38 UTC
What the Talos didn't make the top 20?!? What a shocking surprise.... even though CCP promised not to let the ship suck compared to its brothers.... but it sucks. On EFT there are a few fits that seem competitive, but in the game its basically even more of a "flag shp" example of what's wrong with Gallente Boats than the Diemost which I thought would be hard to achieve.