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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#121 - 2011-11-06 18:10:42 UTC
the problem with making the optimal range bonus better is A... wtf about spike and B... 250km max targeting.. C. 150km probeming....

i still feel that a rate of fire bonus of 5% per lev would be much much better then the optimal range bonus...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2011-11-06 18:12:24 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
No to 40-50% more damage. Most of these comparisons ignore the drone bays of ships. And also forget that any damage increase is a range increase due to the nature of fall off



thus why if boosting this hard, blasters should have shorter ranges (either falloff and/or optimal reduced, or complete removal of falloff)

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#123 - 2011-11-06 18:23:06 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
the problem with making the optimal range bonus better is A... wtf about spike and B... 250km max targeting.. C. 150km probeming....

i still feel that a rate of fire bonus of 5% per lev would be much much better then the optimal range bonus...

For caldari, antimatter will probably be the only ammo they'd need for rails. With blasters they finally become competitive with lasers using null.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2011-11-06 18:31:14 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
No to 40-50% more damage. Most of these comparisons ignore the drone bays of ships. And also forget that any damage increase is a range increase due to the nature of fall off.


Your only suggestion in this thread specifically to hybrid turret balancing is to increase the tracking 25 percent, which does approximately jack all to help with fundamental issues with the weapon system. A tracking buff is needed but it is only a small portion of a solution.
In your previous post, you bring up everything except hybrid balancing... Other than to say no to a damage buff. Oh.... and to suggest a damper bonus on the hyperion. A broken piece of EW gear to compensate for having broken turrets. Lets replace all Minmatar falloff and rate of fire bonus's with Target painter bonuses instead.

How does tracking help a Gallente ship close 30km to target and still overcome the unanswered DPS the enemy has spewed at him? It does not and he cannot. You also seem to suggest EW drones as a way to mitigate damage for blaster boats. News Flash: Other races have drone bays and they do the same thing. Specific ship fixes are great but are not the way to fundamentally balance hybrids. A 40-50 percent buff in damage output for blasters would obviously require falloff adjustments as well as optimal adjustments but coupled with a ship speed and tracking buff would balance hybrids.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#125 - 2011-11-06 19:07:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Pattern Clarc
Nemesor wrote:
How does tracking help a Gallente ship close 30km

How does any hybrid boost solve this? At least with additional tracking, the damage that you do have can be properly applied with all the speed everyone wants after rubber banding within 50% web range of the target.

Also, see the link in my sig. Focus on specific ships, increase damage bonuses there if necessary, anything else would just provide another round of mudification.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Imawuss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#126 - 2011-11-06 19:30:20 UTC
Honestly on top of current buffs i would:

1. give optimal a 100% increase and falloff a 80% decrease.
2. increase damage by 20%
3. reduce RoF by 10%
4. Instant loading ammo (Hybrids need some sort of inert advantage like every other weapon has)
5. Adjust T2 ammo as needed. Since Hail got that -50% falloff modfier taken off all other t2 ammo should get the same type of buff, or remove the tracking penalty with void and adjust the range modifers to match the new optimal favored range hybrids would have.

6. (this one would be a bit more experimental) Ammo cap usage goes up with the extended range, not down. Also damage reductions for range are reduced. This could work if cap penalties are severe enough, Making Hybrids viable only for short periods at null ranges but dealing more damag at that range. So they could fight at that range but would cap themseves out if they did the entire fight at range. When combined with insta load ammo we could apply some dps while we get in range then switch to more cap freindly ammo. Mimitar would still be the kite Kings and able to own at mid range and amarr would still be able to apply much more DPS at range. All keep their uniquenss and Hybrids are much more competive. On top of that its just involves changing some stats so its not even that much work for CCP. Win win win as far as im concerned.
Imawuss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2011-11-06 19:41:43 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
No to 40-50% more damage. Most of these comparisons ignore the drone bays of ships. And also forget that any damage increase is a range increase due to the nature of fall off



thus why if boosting this hard, blasters should have shorter ranges (either falloff and/or optimal reduced, or complete removal of falloff)


You know why this wont work... Because at a certain point how much damage you do does not matter if your range is gimped too far.
Lets say you get a weapon that does 2500 DPS @ 5km. I can do 700 @ 45km. I would choose 700 @ 45km everytime. Even moreso if its in a faster ship. Sure you would get a few kills here and there but even a broken watch is right twice a day.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2011-11-06 20:40:46 UTC
Imawuss wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
No to 40-50% more damage. Most of these comparisons ignore the drone bays of ships. And also forget that any damage increase is a range increase due to the nature of fall off



thus why if boosting this hard, blasters should have shorter ranges (either falloff and/or optimal reduced, or complete removal of falloff)


You know why this wont work... Because at a certain point how much damage you do does not matter if your range is gimped too far.
Lets say you get a weapon that does 2500 DPS @ 5km. I can do 700 @ 45km. I would choose 700 @ 45km everytime. Even moreso if its in a faster ship. Sure you would get a few kills here and there but even a broken watch is right twice a day.


forgot the bit where one adds more mobility to blaster ships tooOops


no really, there's 3 ways to fix blasters: one you boost damage, cut range, and give good mobility to blaster ships, other you make them behave like AC's and/or pulses, and the other is simply forget about them and make gallente ships focus solely on drones and caldari focus on missiles, thus removing the need to even think about blasters and rails.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Alice Katsuko
Perkone
Caldari State
#129 - 2011-11-06 21:13:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Alice Katsuko
Nemesor wrote:
Alice Katsuko wrote:

So maybe some factions simply shouldn't be the FOTM in fleet warfare. Ditto for being successful solo boats. Near as I understand it, being able to get into range shouldn't be an issue if you're working with fast tackle that can hold the target down.


I don't think fleet warfare is being discussed specifically.

30km to close on a target is still 17 seconds of unanswered fire when you are in a gallente BS. Ok... the Baddon is tackled and is not going anywhere... Decloak and start huffing and puffing 800ms to get into range... all while taking Lasers to the face. Obviously you either do not fly blaster boats. (In before the "Yes I do" : Then you are doing it wrong).

A substancial speed boost (Enough to chase down other races) with enough DPS buff to make up for taking punishment in the face while chasing them down worthwhile. (40 percent)


I don't fly blaster boats. Just going by what I've read and seen, and trying to address some of the complaints regarding hybrids. I don't think that the absense of Gallente boats in big fleets is an issue, nor is their dependence on other ships to catch things. 17 seconds of laser fire from an Abaddon shouldn't be much of an issue for an armor-tanked ship, especially if you deliver higher dps.

From what I understand, Gallente boats are already getting a speed and agility boost across the board. The problem with giving them a huge speed boost is that it doesn't address the underlying issue of hybrids being underwhelming as a weapons platform. Boosting Gallente ship speed without addressing blasters and rails would simply result in a lot of autocannon-fit Megathrons and such.

A 40% damage boost may be a bit excessive. Damage increments in EVE are 5% for most things, and 2% for more than a few skills. I would rather see how the current damage and speed boost plays out in TQ before boosting damage even further. Even without a damage boost, blasters already deal the highest dps within their optimal. A good tracking boost will make that damage easier to apply. Boosting damage even further, combined with a significant speed boost, might make Gallente ships superior to autocannons in virtually all situations, which would be just as bad as the current situation.
Dr Cedric
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#130 - 2011-11-06 21:21:22 UTC
Don't know if this is the place, but Here's my two cents:

Fitted a Naga w/ 8x 425 rail II's, spike charges. Easily hit ranges on the guns of 250 km plus, with TE's, so I switched them out for MFS's to up damage. Tracking computers w/ tracking speed scripts, 10 MN MWD and a bit of tank, and I"m off to lvl 4.

It was very fun, although somewhat time consuming to orbit at 200km and plink the mission rats to smithereens. Not sure if its the most efficient (did you catch my sarcasm) but it was a change and fun. Would be interesting w/ a fleet of 3-5 of these things, new fleet blitz option : )

Thanks for at least something good CCP

Cedric
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#131 - 2011-11-06 21:26:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Soon Shin
Blasters have several times less range than pulses and autos while having only 10% more DPS. That is a terrible trade off, those who disagree are fools.

Blasters need a SIGNIFICANT Increase in damage in order for them to be even worth using. A mere 5-10% is not enough. Those who disagree don't want gallente to be a good race. Increasing the range will just make blasters pretty much the same as autocannons and pulses.

Blasters are meant to be close range and HARD Hitting guns, therefore they need an enormous Damage advantage to make them worth using for all the disadvantages that they have.

I propose at least a 20+ % increase to the damage of blasters, in order to make up for the very short range and the fact that blasterboats are slow and have trouble catching targets. This will mean that Blasters Will Dominate in Close range, while being poor in medium and long ranges that Pulses and Autos are good at. This will finally give Blasters a role that is not done by Autocannons and Pulses.

Blasters have 3-5 times less range than Pulses and Autos, so it is only fair that they should have an enormous DPS advantage to compensation.
Dare Devel
State War Academy
Caldari State
#132 - 2011-11-06 21:35:04 UTC
Alice Katsuko wrote:

I don't fly blaster boats. Just going by what I've read and seen, and trying to address some of the complaints regarding hybrids.


If you havent flown one and just read about it then please keep your thoughts to yourself. You will never ever be able to
address our problem. To address our problem you have to fly it for years and gather your frustrations, as we hybrid users
have, then pour your heart out in this thread.

Till then goodbye have a nice day. Straight
Dr Cedric
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#133 - 2011-11-06 21:45:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Cedric
Again, not sure if this is the place,

Has anyone tried making blaster range based 90% on optimal, 10% falloff? Similar, only reversed to projectiles falloff>optimal scheme?

If my theory crafting is up to snuff, that would mean as soon as your target is in range (whatever range that is) you're basically applying all of your damage to the opponent. I know that everyone thinks Projectiles have awesome damage, but a good portion of that is mitigated due to the fact that projectile boats fly and shoot in falloff, rather than at 1.5km, which is their optimal (estimation).

This also would give a "bonus" to tracking enhancers optimal boost for the blasters. IIRC i read a decent post stating that small optimal plus small falloff time tracking enhancer still equals small boost (for blasters). SInce projectiles have such a huge falloff, the tracking enhancer gives them a much bigger relative boost. With the above scheme, you could get your blasters to shoot out to a decent range to help "close" the distance between you and the other guy.

Just a thought

Cedric
Imawuss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2011-11-06 21:51:53 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Imawuss wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
No to 40-50% more damage. Most of these comparisons ignore the drone bays of ships. And also forget that any damage increase is a range increase due to the nature of fall off



thus why if boosting this hard, blasters should have shorter ranges (either falloff and/or optimal reduced, or complete removal of falloff)


You know why this wont work... Because at a certain point how much damage you do does not matter if your range is gimped too far.
Lets say you get a weapon that does 2500 DPS @ 5km. I can do 700 @ 45km. I would choose 700 @ 45km everytime. Even moreso if its in a faster ship. Sure you would get a few kills here and there but even a broken watch is right twice a day.


forgot the bit where one adds more mobility to blaster ships tooOops


no really, there's 3 ways to fix blasters: one you boost damage, cut range, and give good mobility to blaster ships, other you make them behave like AC's and/or pulses, and the other is simply forget about them and make gallente ships focus solely on drones and caldari focus on missiles, thus removing the need to even think about blasters and rails.


Boost damage, cut range, increase mobility.... Wont work for reasons i stated in what you qouted. Mobility will never reach or surpass Mimatar because then you are Mimatar, and boosting damage and cutting range only exasterbates the issues. If you make them behave like pulses and AC"s they become that.... that wont happen either. They most be unique.

My idea above the one you qouted is a good idea for an added buff. That will make blasters disirable, without going ape **** and making them the new FoTM.

1. give optimal a 100% increase and falloff a 80% decrease.
2. increase damage by 20%
3. reduce RoF by 10%
4. Instant loading ammo (Hybrids need some sort of inert advantage like every other weapon has)
5. Adjust T2 ammo as needed. Since Hail got that -50% falloff modfier taken off all other t2 ammo should get the same type of buff, or remove the tracking penalty with void and adjust the range modifers to match the new optimal favored range hybrids would have.

6. (this one would be a bit more experimental) Ammo cap usage goes up with the extended range, not down. Also damage reductions for range are reduced. This could work if cap penalties are severe enough, Making Hybrids viable only for short periods at null ranges but dealing more damag at that range. So they could fight at that range but would cap themseves out if they did the entire fight at range. When combined with insta load ammo we could apply some dps while we get in range then switch to more cap freindly ammo. Mimitar would still be the kite Kings and able to own at mid range and amarr would still be able to apply much more DPS at range. All keep their uniquenss and Hybrids are much more competive. On top of that its just involves changing some stats so its not even that much work for CCP. Win win win as far as im concerned.
Jiji Hamin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2011-11-06 21:59:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Jiji Hamin
Dare Devel wrote:
Alice Katsuko wrote:

I don't fly blaster boats. Just going by what I've read and seen, and trying to address some of the complaints regarding hybrids.


If you havent flown one and just read about it then please keep your thoughts to yourself. You will never ever be able to
address our problem. To address our problem you have to fly it for years and gather your frustrations, as we hybrid users
have, then pour your heart out in this thread.

Till then goodbye have a nice day. Straight


OR, roll gallente, love gallente, stick SPs into gallente, realize that your relationship will never work until they get their act together, leave gallente for amarr with tears in your eyes, let multiple years pass during which you still secretly harbor feelings for gallente, vent about how those SPs will continue to be near worthless even after the proposed changes.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2011-11-06 22:26:32 UTC
Imawuss wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
Imawuss wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
No to 40-50% more damage. Most of these comparisons ignore the drone bays of ships. And also forget that any damage increase is a range increase due to the nature of fall off



thus why if boosting this hard, blasters should have shorter ranges (either falloff and/or optimal reduced, or complete removal of falloff)


You know why this wont work... Because at a certain point how much damage you do does not matter if your range is gimped too far.
Lets say you get a weapon that does 2500 DPS @ 5km. I can do 700 @ 45km. I would choose 700 @ 45km everytime. Even moreso if its in a faster ship. Sure you would get a few kills here and there but even a broken watch is right twice a day.


forgot the bit where one adds more mobility to blaster ships tooOops


no really, there's 3 ways to fix blasters: one you boost damage, cut range, and give good mobility to blaster ships, other you make them behave like AC's and/or pulses, and the other is simply forget about them and make gallente ships focus solely on drones and caldari focus on missiles, thus removing the need to even think about blasters and rails.


Boost damage, cut range, increase mobility.... Wont work for reasons i stated in what you qouted. Mobility will never reach or surpass Mimatar because then you are Mimatar, and boosting damage and cutting range only exasterbates the issues. If you make them behave like pulses and AC"s they become that.... that wont happen either. They most be unique.

My idea above the one you qouted is a good idea for an added buff. That will make blasters disirable, without going ape **** and making them the new FoTM.

1. give optimal a 100% increase and falloff a 80% decrease.
2. increase damage by 20%
3. reduce RoF by 10%
4. Instant loading ammo (Hybrids need some sort of inert advantage like every other weapon has)
5. Adjust T2 ammo as needed. Since Hail got that -50% falloff modfier taken off all other t2 ammo should get the same type of buff, or remove the tracking penalty with void and adjust the range modifers to match the new optimal favored range hybrids would have.

6. (this one would be a bit more experimental) Ammo cap usage goes up with the extended range, not down. Also damage reductions for range are reduced. This could work if cap penalties are severe enough, Making Hybrids viable only for short periods at null ranges but dealing more damag at that range. So they could fight at that range but would cap themseves out if they did the entire fight at range. When combined with insta load ammo we could apply some dps while we get in range then switch to more cap freindly ammo. Mimitar would still be the kite Kings and able to own at mid range and amarr would still be able to apply much more DPS at range. All keep their uniquenss and Hybrids are much more competive. On top of that its just involves changing some stats so its not even that much work for CCP. Win win win as far as im concerned.


that's making them into a bit more like lasers with worse optimal and more damage.
at least that's how it looks like.

also what's so wrong in making blaster boats faster? if any, matari ships are supposed to be nimble things that zip around. nothing wrong in making galente ships faster but still hard to corner with them. granted matari ships lose their "fastest ships in this size of the 'verse" place, but if people play with the numbers right, it's doable to do this and not break things.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
M1AU
Zappenduster Inc.
#137 - 2011-11-06 22:33:01 UTC  |  Edited by: M1AU
Jiji Hamin wrote:
Dare Devel wrote:
Alice Katsuko wrote:

I don't fly blaster boats. Just going by what I've read and seen, and trying to address some of the complaints regarding hybrids.


If you havent flown one and just read about it then please keep your thoughts to yourself. You will never ever be able to
address our problem. To address our problem you have to fly it for years and gather your frustrations, as we hybrid users
have, then pour your heart out in this thread.

Till then goodbye have a nice day. Straight


OR, roll gallente, love gallente, stick SPs into gallente, realize that your relationship will never work until they get their act together, leave gallente for amarr with tears in your eyes, let multiple years pass during which you still secretly harbor feelings for gallente, vent about how those SPs will continue to be near worthless even after the proposed changes.


Well I'm actually exactly in that boat as I'm flying almost exclusively Gallente ships. Oops

Back then when I started playing EVE, I always thought that it would be balanced. After skilling everything Gallente specific almost to the max - that's for ships skill, hybrid skills and drone skills - I was still at the low end compared to my low SP Caldari friends. They where already flying lvl 4 missions in there Ravens all the time and I still struggled doing the same with my high SP Gallente boats.

Now after so much time and frustration, I would really love to see Gallente ships getting some serious love, regardless of how it will look like. I'm ready, at least SP wise.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#138 - 2011-11-06 22:58:05 UTC
After a weekend looking into the current hybrid changes :

This balance need more work.
Currently we have a change of stats that makes hybrids better,
but the hybrids still need a UNIQUE ROLE to fit the current game mechanics.

Hybrid fittings :
Fitting up lots of ships I was happy to see hybrids fitting better without allowing
oversized guns or mods.
I did with maxed fitting skills and no ACR rigs often end up having a surplus of
PG indicating that perhaps a 10% powergrid reduction would be sufficient. Will
have to look closer into this...

Hybrid capacitor :
The suggested 30% cap reduction on all hybrids doesn't have as much influence
as I imagined. It does however help the battleships run 425mm railguns without
having them dry out the capacitor on their own as they do now on TQ.
I love the cap reduction, however for this to really matter CCP should either do
50% or change the ammunition to use less cap for short range and more cap for
long range.

Hybrid tracking :
20% better tracking should allow blasters and railguns to gain a crucial advantage
against especially the autocannons. This said in close range where blasters belong
I'm still having the experience of poor tracking at times. This is most likely fine but
I would perhaps attempt a 25% increase equal to a T1 Tracking computer.

Railgun damage increase :
Railguns right now have only 1 broken advantage: range... I don't want to list all the
disadvantages, however 10% damage inrease is not enough. No matter what ships
I compare it seems railguns need at least 20-25% more to match the dps of other
ranged setups.
Also without a boost to blasters it looks as if they can never get enough bite into other
ships. Getting within 1-2km and staying there is near impossible with the weaker webs
and blasters should definately receive a boost to their damage. Not as spectacular as
other people might suggest but definately 5-10% to make it a respected CQB weapon.

Ship stats :
Velocity and Agility boosts will certainly help and especially the blaster ships should
feel their ships respond better. That is ofcourse if it wasn't for being primarily armor
ships with plates and armor rigs.
I don't mind the minmatar having a speed advantage, however with their transformation
into shield fleets the gap has opened up too much. In my opinion the base velocity of
minmatar and gallente should be reversed while armor rigs and plates will balance out
that advantage in return for EHP.
This change might be too big right now, but then other attributes should be tweaked to
allow the blaster ships to catch up - How about looking into the gallente design trades
like "signature radious" and "mass"?
Also: Plz do NOT boost the recons as they are all RANGED ships and already difficult
getting close to.

Resumé and suggestions :

  • Hybrid fittings - Works well, however maybe 10% PG reduction is enough?
  • Hybrid cap reduction - Nice, but could easily use a bigger reduction.
  • Hybrid tracking boost 20% - Much needed to gain advantage close range.
  • Railgun +10% dps increase - Simply not enough. I would boost hybrid ammo 10% and then on top of this boost the railguns additionally 10%
  • Ship speed/agility increase - A good step on the road, however the gallente ships does still have trouble catching up to especially the fast minmatar ships being at a disadvantage not only in base velocity but also from armor rigs and plates compared to shield rigs and extenders.

All the above attributes are traditional key attributes for boosting hybrids and the ships using them, however to really fix blasters and railguns we need to create a unique role.
In my opinion CCP Tallest need to make a new definition for hybrids including the T1 ammunition and creating a usefull role instead of being able to shoot at range nobody want to fight...

T1 Ammunition :
Right now people rarely use anything but antimatter for hybrids due to blasters being short range anyway and railguns having a super sweet range. I would suggest a remake like this:
  • Antimatter -50% range -->> Same range, same dps +10% (20/80 therm/kin distribution) and -20% cap use bonus
  • Plutonium -37,5% range -5% cap use -->> Same as antimatter but 80/20 therm/kin distribution
  • Uranium -25% range -8% cap use -->> Same range, same dps +10% (20/80 therm/kin distribution) and -10% cap use bonus
  • Thorium -12,5% range -40% cap use -->> Same as Uranium but 80/20 therm/kin distribution
  • Lead 0% range -50% cap use -->> Same range, same dps +10% (20/80 therm/kin distribution) but 0% cap use bonus
  • Iridium +20% range -24% cap use -->> Same as Lead but 80/20 therm/kin distribution
  • Tungsten +40% range -27% cap use -->> +25% range, same dps +10% (20/80 therm/kin distribution) and +10% cap use
  • Iron +60% range -30% cap use -->> Same as Tungsten but 80/20 therm/kin distribution
  • Have the T2 Spike do a +50% range bonus

Railguns and blasters :
The suggestions already on the table will definately help patch the gap between railguns and other long range weapons, however to make them unique and usefull in pvp I suggest the following:
  • Change reload time from 10 to 5 seconds to make changing ammo usefull
  • Hybrids in general need 5-10% more dps on the ammo and railguns need additional 10% dps
  • Adjust "Signature Resolution" on railguns so smaller tier railguns hit smaller targets better
    • (Example : dual 250mm = 300m, 350mm = 350m, 425mm = 400m)


Blaster ships :
Currently the blaster ships seems to be the primary downfall for hybrids as they have a near impossible task of getting the guns as close to the enemy as possible in spite of being armor tanked with penalties from plates and rigs.
I would look into also reducing gallente mass and maybe even their signature about 10%.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#139 - 2011-11-06 23:01:36 UTC
Damn that was a long post - I hope it was worth it because the hybrids still need a few more tweaks to be worth it... Post took 4 hours to write Shocked
Imawuss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2011-11-06 23:07:28 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Imawuss wrote:

1. give optimal a 100% increase and falloff a 80% decrease.
2. increase damage by 20%
3. reduce RoF by 10%
4. Instant loading ammo (Hybrids need some sort of inert advantage like every other weapon has)
5. Adjust T2 ammo as needed. Since Hail got that -50% falloff modfier taken off all other t2 ammo should get the same type of buff, or remove the tracking penalty with void and adjust the range modifers to match the new optimal favored range hybrids would have.

6. (this one would be a bit more experimental) Ammo cap usage goes up with the extended range, not down. Also damage reductions for range are reduced. This could work if cap penalties are severe enough, Making Hybrids viable only for short periods at null ranges but dealing more damag at that range. So they could fight at that range but would cap themseves out if they did the entire fight at range. When combined with insta load ammo we could apply some dps while we get in range then switch to more cap freindly ammo. Mimitar would still be the kite Kings and able to own at mid range and amarr would still be able to apply much more DPS at range. All keep their uniquenss and Hybrids are much more competive. On top of that its just involves changing some stats so its not even that much work for CCP. Win win win as far as im concerned.


that's making them into a bit more like lasers with worse optimal and more damage.
at least that's how it looks like.

also what's so wrong in making blaster boats faster? if any, matari ships are supposed to be nimble things that zip around. nothing wrong in making galente ships faster but still hard to corner with them. granted matari ships lose their "fastest ships in this size of the 'verse" place, but if people play with the numbers right, it's doable to do this and not break things.


Well Yes it does make them more like Lasers, they are hybrids after all. But with very key differences, They still are short ranged weapons unlike AC's and Pulses that can do short and mid range and in pulses case long range, they have a higher alpha and lower RoF like projectiles (artis), they do more damage, thier ammo functions differently. Basically this turns them into a hybrid of both projectiles and lasers with the advatages while still being unquilly suited for short range combat. Currently they are a hybrid in that they share only the disadvatages of each system. This only adds two things in common with lasers, instant ammo, and optimal is much higher than falloff. Lasers still would have vastly superoir range and more constant damage and still distinctly different and usable in different situations. we still have to carry ammo limiting our range choices we take with us. unlike lasers.

However increasing mobility in order for that to be worth while you ships would have ot be as fast if not faster than Mimatar. They are supposed to be able to kite, play with range. Now you have Gallente take over this roll, not going to happen. Plus if you "fix" hybrids in that matter what abbout Caldari boats that use hybrids? ar ethye now going to be able to kite as well? your fixing the wrong issue by doing that ie: the ships, not the weapon system.