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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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Author
Borachon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1061 - 2011-11-22 01:30:30 UTC
The base problem is that there is simply no way you can fit a decent armor or shield tank onto a gallente blaster boat without a massive rework of ships and/or modules. Armor tanks drop their speed/agility too much, they don't have the slots to shield tank. There's simply no way that's going to happen.

There's a simple strategy to fix Gallente blaster boats, one that's already hinted at here: Taranis Uber Alles. The Taranis is by far the most successful Gallente blaster boat because of its high damage, speed, low sig, and high structure. Blasters and a sig/speed/structure tank make it a challenging but fun boat to fly. The Talos/Deimos/Thorax should be able to sig/speed tank and use structure as a buffer until they get in close to kill things. To do this, they need three things:
1. Dual prop so that they can get in close by pulsing the MWD and then stay close/fast using AB/scram.
2. Decent structure buffer that doesn't kill their speed
3. A way to modestly slow down opponents that doesn't eat scarse midslots

To do this:
1. Buff reinforced bulkheads by removing the speed penalty. The speed penalty makes them worthless to the very ships that would like to use them to get more buffer while they dive in close.
2. Slightly buff overdrive injectors speed bonus - with a propmod, they result in lower top speeds than nanofibers *and* don't give the agility bonus that nanofibers do. Gallente should prefer overdrives (especially with the hybrid cargo size buff) while Minmatar prefer nanofibers, but overdrives need a slight buff for them to be competitive.
3. Add light and medium stasis web drones with a 4/8% velocity reduction to use because Gallente blaster ships lack midslots.
4. Give us some structure repair drones to use on each other between fights.

Basically, the following fits, which fit with the current SiSi hybrid fitting requirements, should be made to be a competitive blaster boats that you want to fly like a giant Taranis. They currently aren't viable because of the problems with RB2/Overdrives and the lack of necessary drones:

Talos, Talanis
HIghs: 8x Neutron Blaster Canon
Mids: MWD2/AB 2/Warp Scram 2/Stasis Web 2
Lows: DC2/RB2/2x Overdrive Injector/1x MFS
Rigs: Polycarb/Hybrid damage
Drones: 5x Light stasis webifier drones

Deimos, Deiranis
Highs: 5x Heavy Neutron Blaster, 1x named medium neut
Mids: Named MWD/AB2/Scram2
Lows: DC2/2xRB2/2xMFS/1xOverdrive
Rigs: Polycarb/Dynamic Fuel Valve
Drones: 2x med web/3x light web/armor+hull rep drones

Thorax, Thoranis
Highs: 5x Heavy Neutron Blaster
Mids: Named MWD/AB2/Scram2
Lows: DC2/2xRB2/1xOverdrive/1xMFS2
RIgs: ACR/Polycarb/Collision Accel
Drones: 2x med web/3x light web/armor+hull rep drones
Jazz Styles
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1062 - 2011-11-22 01:55:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Jazz Styles
This has probably been covered, but how about changing the armour rep bonus (obsolete) to a afterburner/mwd speed bonus, and then putting it on the gallente ships that are supposed to be blaster boats.

  • Thorax & Deimos (remove the cap bonus and replace with speed)
  • Hyperion
  • Megathron? (Great blaster boat, but that tracking bonus is pretty sweet, and if the hyperion gets speed, it'll probably end up being better overall).
  • Brutix and its variants.
  • Myrmidon (I don't see this as a blaster boat, so change the rep bonus to be a hybrid damage bonus to make it a lighter version of the Dominix)
Jaigar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1063 - 2011-11-22 06:36:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaigar
Jazz Styles wrote:
This has probably been covered, but how about changing the armour rep bonus (obsolete) to a afterburner/mwd speed bonus, and the putting it on the gallente ships that are supposed to be blaster boats.

  • Thorax & Deimos (remove the cap bonus and replace with speed)
  • Hyperion
  • Megathron? (Great blaster boat, but that tracking bonus is pretty sweet, and if the hyperion gets speed, it'll probably end up being better overall).
  • Brutix and its variants.
  • Myrmidon (I don't see this as a blaster boat, so change the rep bonus to be a hybrid damage bonus to make it a lighter version of the Dominix)


With the Combat Booster change, these bonuses will be very nice, so I wouldn't exactly want to junk them.

And the webbing drones above: webbing drones are viewed as useless because of stacking penalties; the talos can get away with 1 heavy because they move just fast enough to catch most cruisers.

The Talos may have a tanking issue, but thats kindof the point.
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1064 - 2011-11-22 07:01:09 UTC
The Myrmidon should not be touched. Its one of the few Gallente boats that actually work what they are designed for. I'd like to see them with a bigger drone bay but this doesn't matter right now.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Jaigar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1065 - 2011-11-22 07:17:38 UTC
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
i plan on using the vig as a point man for armor gangs. with the capability to bring a target that is mwd'ing around down to 25m/s or lower at 14km (fed navy webs), my collegues will be applying nearly perfect damage. in this way, it is far superior to the cynabal since A) the cynabal cannot armor tank B)the web bonus of the vig lets my heaviest hitting t3's in gang do full dps C) it can finally have a reasonable tank and compete with the other t3's and pirate ships we fly dps wise.

comparing a cynabal and vigilant is analogous to comparing a race car to a bear trap. they have two completely different applications.


Agreed, its about understanding the role of a ship. Sure, Gallente ships have a harder time switching targets and reaching them, but when you do, you apply stupid amounts of damage. Use a fast crusier to tackle, and with the tracking bonus, logistics melt even faster.

Maybe its the WH PvP slugfests we do on top of wormholes..
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#1066 - 2011-11-22 07:35:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Rip Minner
Jazz Styles wrote:
This has probably been covered, but how about changing the armour rep bonus (obsolete) to a afterburner/mwd speed bonus, and the putting it on the gallente ships that are supposed to be blaster boats.

  • Thorax & Deimos (remove the cap bonus and replace with speed)
  • Hyperion
  • Megathron? (Great blaster boat, but that tracking bonus is pretty sweet, and if the hyperion gets speed, it'll probably end up being better overall).
  • Brutix and its variants.
  • Myrmidon (I don't see this as a blaster boat, so change the rep bonus to be a hybrid damage bonus to make it a lighter version of the Dominix)



Just no on the Myrmidon thing it's a drone boat thats why you dont see it as a blaster boat.

And yes it do's need it's bonus changed as well as the Dominix too. The Myrmidon needs to drop that rep bonus and the Dominix needs to drop that Hybird bonus and they both need it replaced with a 10% to armor hit points bonus to the ship it's not the drones if that's what anyone's thinking.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

Jazz Styles
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1067 - 2011-11-22 07:38:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Jazz Styles
Jaigar wrote:

With the Combat Booster change, these bonuses will be very nice, so I wouldn't exactly want to junk them.

If you're referring to the 7.5% rep bonus, it's generally accepted that local repping is an inferior option for pvp (granted it works on the myrmidon if you put 3 medium repairers on, but not many others can do that). This is why you don't see many hyperions, or armour tanked brutixes etc. The idea with changing that bonus to aid speed is to let blaster boats do what they're designed to do, better, and local repping isn't one of those things.
Jazz Styles
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1068 - 2011-11-22 07:41:51 UTC
Rip Minner wrote:

Just no on the Myrmidon thing it's a drone boat thats why you dont see it as a blaster boat.

Yeah I see a lot of autocannon fitted myrms for the caplessness (same with prophecies and the other no-damage bonus ships)
Rip Minner wrote:

And yes it do's need it's bonus changed as well as the Dominix too. The Myrmidon needs to drop that rep bonus and the Dominix needs to drop that Hybird bonus and they both need it replaced with a 10% to armor hit points bonus to the ship it's not the drones if that's what anyone's thinking.

Ooo, I take it all back - change the rep bonus to a 10% armour hp bonus per level Pirate
Jaigar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1069 - 2011-11-22 07:51:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaigar
Jazz Styles wrote:
Jaigar wrote:

With the Combat Booster change, these bonuses will be very nice, so I wouldn't exactly want to junk them.

If you're referring to the 7.5% rep bonus, it's generally accepted that local repping is an inferior option for pvp (granted it works on the myrmidon if you put 3 medium repairers on, but not many others can do that). This is why you don't see many hyperions, or armour tanked brutixes etc. The idea with changing that bonus to aid speed is to let blaster boats do what they're designed to do, better, and local repping isn't one of those things.

Kindof missing the point here. The 15% boosters will give close to 20% rep bonus for up to 2 hours and cost roughly 8-15 mil ISK. Because they are removing the side effects of boosters and changing that skill to +5% booster bonus, theres no drawbacks besides a little isk investment. and 1.375*1.19=163% normal repping strength, which is pretty nice.
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#1070 - 2011-11-22 07:54:54 UTC
Jaigar wrote:
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
i plan on using the vig as a point man for armor gangs. with the capability to bring a target that is mwd'ing around down to 25m/s or lower at 14km (fed navy webs), my collegues will be applying nearly perfect damage. in this way, it is far superior to the cynabal since A) the cynabal cannot armor tank B)the web bonus of the vig lets my heaviest hitting t3's in gang do full dps C) it can finally have a reasonable tank and compete with the other t3's and pirate ships we fly dps wise.

comparing a cynabal and vigilant is analogous to comparing a race car to a bear trap. they have two completely different applications.


Agreed, its about understanding the role of a ship. Sure, Gallente ships have a harder time switching targets and reaching them, but when you do, you apply stupid amounts of damage. Use a fast crusier to tackle, and with the tracking bonus, logistics melt even faster.

Maybe its the WH PvP slugfests we do on top of wormholes..



Yes it is the kind of PVP that normaly happends in WH PVP that make Blaster boats usefull still as they have always been very usefull in small gangs and smaller fleet fights.

But as the numbers Rise in a fleet fights the less likely you are to see a Hybird/Drone/Missile BS fleet of any kind at higher levels were High levels of dmg projection realy matter becouse you got to melt that other fleet faster then they can melt you and there for the travel time of blaster ships lower dps of rails and travel time of both missiles and drone pluse other missile/drone problems realy leave only Projectiles and Lazers as the only truely usefull Major fleet fight weapons.


Thats the nut shell and the only way I see out of it is..

1.) Give Caldari and Gallente usefull PVP Missile and Drone BS.

OR

2.) Make Hybirds the equel of Projectiles and Lazers buy turning Rails into a Kin/Therm verson of Beams zero reload time on Rails and Blasters into a Kin/Therm verson of Projectiles with 10sec reload time same as autocannons.

And no one realy whats the second option.


Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#1071 - 2011-11-22 08:01:24 UTC
Jaigar wrote:
Jazz Styles wrote:
Jaigar wrote:

With the Combat Booster change, these bonuses will be very nice, so I wouldn't exactly want to junk them.

If you're referring to the 7.5% rep bonus, it's generally accepted that local repping is an inferior option for pvp (granted it works on the myrmidon if you put 3 medium repairers on, but not many others can do that). This is why you don't see many hyperions, or armour tanked brutixes etc. The idea with changing that bonus to aid speed is to let blaster boats do what they're designed to do, better, and local repping isn't one of those things.

Kindof missing the point here. The 15% boosters will give close to 20% rep bonus for up to 2 hours and cost roughly 8-15 mil ISK. Because they are removing the side effects of boosters and changing that skill to +5% booster bonus, theres no drawbacks besides a little isk investment. and 1.375*1.19=163% percent normal repping strength, which is pretty nice.



Holy crap hell ya I toltaly missed that and did not even know they were removing penitals on boosters. Any hope that there going to make the legal in High sec.?

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

Jaigar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1072 - 2011-11-22 08:11:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaigar
No, Synth are the only ones legal, and with level 4 skills, those will still give you around 6% boost for 400k isk to 1.5 mil. I already bought up a few hundred.

But those with more dough can throw 20-40 mil (20 in placid ATM) for +25% rep amount for up to 2 hours.. might see more local tank ships return.

And I guess it should be noted that local armor tank ships fly a little faster than their plated brethren, and during a fleet fight, if you can set it up to hold out in say 5 or less on each side fight for 1-2 minutes, it might be just enough...
Jazz Styles
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1073 - 2011-11-22 11:06:35 UTC
Jaigar wrote:
No, Synth are the only ones legal, and with level 4 skills, those will still give you around 6% boost for 400k isk to 1.5 mil. I already bought up a few hundred.

But those with more dough can throw 20-40 mil (20 in placid ATM) for +25% rep amount for up to 2 hours.. might see more local tank ships return.

And I guess it should be noted that local armor tank ships fly a little faster than their plated brethren, and during a fleet fight, if you can set it up to hold out in say 5 or less on each side fight for 1-2 minutes, it might be just enough...

Can't wait to test this out in proper pvp, I too had missed the change to boosters... myrm ftw P
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1074 - 2011-11-22 11:34:44 UTC
Claymores will be the new FOTM with the booster changes. Not active armour tanked ships although active tanking on the whole will become far more prolific amongst small gang and solo PvP.

Extreme boosters plus crystal set and stupidly overpowered ship and weapons (claymore) = fun but not exactly balanced
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#1075 - 2011-11-22 12:14:17 UTC
Dominix doesn't need to change anything - especially not for a tank bonus lol
Most other gallente ships might need a few tweaks, but they are NOT as bad as people make them.
They just have to be flown using special tactics and have a minor overhaul.

Hybrid turrets except a few of the guns sticking out seems pretty reasonable
The ammunition need a revamp as they are too chaotic.
Overdrives, nanofiber internals and inertia stabilizers definately need to be reworked
Blasterships need to accelerate faster (lower mass? better agility?)
Minmatar need to be fastest (higher velocity, higher mass? worse agility?)

Plates - make sure the Gallente ships can fit a MWD+plate and still have better or same mass as minmatar ships?
Armor rigs - make sure they don't reduce a vital attribute for Gallente. Make them nerf sensor strength or scan resolution instead...

Pinky

thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1076 - 2011-11-22 12:44:45 UTC  |  Edited by: thoth rothschild
There are 3 changes which will have a great impact on the game but very likely more in favor of minmatar:

a) Hail Ammo
b) Booster Changes
c) T2 Ganglinks

As usual with such changes; each of them perceived as a standing alone change would not have much impact but in combination , "Hail Ammo" with "Drop-booster " and shield or skirmish T2-Link will hurt.


Whereas Soothsayer or Drop won't help gallente that much, same with skirmish links which do not have that much impact on gallente. They already got low signiture and do not have ships with web range boni.....


A Machariel with a signiture of 200 and a tracking of 0.1 while using Hail on 800mm Guns migth get a real nightmare.
Just imagine a zealot doing the damage of 3 zealots and the tank of 2 :p


Finding synergies and carefully handle them is a key ability of system designers. Seems we got trolled heavily.
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1077 - 2011-11-22 12:58:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Mekhana
We're beating a dead horse here. CCP has stopped reading this thread long ago and clearly no longer doesn't care about our opinion because they consider current changes as final. And probably dropped the whole balancing process over 10 days ago like an anvil.

You people can keep arguing all you want but the next response you get out of CCP out of this whole ordeal is a message that the thread is locked.

This was just an excuse to get us shafted again.

This video is Crucible in a nutshell:

http://youtu.be/Un2slS7q5Zw

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1078 - 2011-11-22 13:13:37 UTC
QQ mekkie, maybe you should unsub if your so mad

the blaster changes will work nicely for what i want them for. the rest of you can go rot in a ditch somewhere lolz
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#1079 - 2011-11-22 13:14:34 UTC
True - for some reason I feel totally humiliated having spent time and energy to check changes, predict impacts and consequences and dig up arguments for and against various stuff...
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1080 - 2011-11-22 13:47:50 UTC
It is a bit sad that CCP's response to hilariously imbalanced gang links was to make the best ones (Skirmish tbh) even better...