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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

First post First post
Author
Maksim Cammeren
Taxless Corp
#181 - 2011-11-07 21:02:42 UTC
On the topic of railguns.

Railguns are designed to be long range weapons, but, as pointed out many times in the thread, they often have more range than necessary in typical engagements (especially on Caldari hulls).

What about nerfing some of their range, but increasing the raw damage to compensate?
For example:
-20% to optimal/falloff
+x% tracking (since you now use them at shorter ranges)
+20% damage
?

That way, Caldari hull bonuses are more useful in typical engagements, while the Gallente get a more powerful weapon at medium ranges.
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#182 - 2011-11-07 21:09:08 UTC
Monger Man
D.S.A.
#183 - 2011-11-07 21:15:03 UTC
Daedalus Arcova wrote:


Oh man.
Fixed
sq0
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#184 - 2011-11-07 21:59:25 UTC
For now i think it would be best to just add +20-30% blaster dmg on top of sisi changes to compensate for extremly long time getting in 0range ( if it is even possible).

Problem won't be solved at all, but it's a start. Adressing the deep problem of blasters and blasterships is a longer issue, so for now, i think it's best to add this to next patch and keep thinking about the whole issue.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#185 - 2011-11-07 22:44:18 UTC
Monger Man wrote:


What if hybrids instead changed how they worked with different ammo.





i think this is what we'll end up seeing ultimately. it's the simplest solution, and the community seems to not mind it. it's super boring though. cant wait to see how theyve incorporated player suggestions into the next iteration.
Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#186 - 2011-11-07 22:56:42 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
Monger Man wrote:


What if hybrids instead changed how they worked with different ammo.





i think this is what we'll end up seeing ultimately. it's the simplest solution, and the community seems to not mind it. it's super boring though. cant wait to see how theyve incorporated player suggestions into the next iteration.


Boring, perhaps... Still I'd take "effective" over "exciting" any day. One simple solution would be dramatically increasing damage gains from using shorter ranged ammo.... That at least would solve the Caldari rail problems. Blaster problems need a more organic approach, though a big bump in damage would at least make them worth using in some situations.
Wylee Coyote
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#187 - 2011-11-07 23:56:11 UTC
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
Much of what Mariner6 said earlier i do approve of.

Gallente Blaster boats commit 100% so yes they fight in scram/web/neut range. Because of this Gallente Blaster boats need to be made of sturdier stuff than they are now.
Boost armor RESISTS! not HP amount as that will affect performance. The Drake is a tech1 BC yet it has 5% to all Shield resists per lvl. Apply some of the same thoughts to gallente boats.

and as much as some people are wanting a switch from armor to shield tanking for gallente, i really still feel gallente should stay armor tanky!

Also im unsure of this but i believe gallente ships should have either a buff to cap capacity or a buff to cap regen to make them more resilient in neut range compared to other platforms.
Making hybrids less cap intensive is a buff to all ships that want to use hybrids. Gallente ships should be built to withstand the cap intensive nature of hybrids a LOT more than other ships!

Also T2 Hybrid ammos need more love as been said previously!
Hail defintiely needs a 50% to optimal and falloff.
Void still needs a damage bonus more than it has so far.

in general Gallente's secondary bonuses should be considered to be web range if anything, for example 10% per lvl to range, NOT to velocity factor! even with a domination web ur not getting to max t2 point range and ur not encroaching on rapiers range territory.
Yet it WILL actually bring some level of catch it kill it to gallente design.


Agreed.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#188 - 2011-11-08 00:57:50 UTC
Maksim Cammeren wrote:
On the topic of railguns.

Railguns are designed to be long range weapons, but, as pointed out many times in the thread, they often have more range than necessary in typical engagements (especially on Caldari hulls).

What about nerfing some of their range, but increasing the raw damage to compensate?
For example:
-20% to optimal/falloff
+x% tracking (since you now use them at shorter ranges)
+20% damage
?

That way, Caldari hull bonuses are more useful in typical engagements, while the Gallente get a more powerful weapon at medium ranges.



removal of falloff
moderate tracking increase (atm is quite good)
40%+ boost to damage.


that's for blasters alone.
blaster ships should receive a mobility upgrade too.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Rawls Canardly
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#189 - 2011-11-08 01:46:33 UTC
a thought I've been cooking up:

a solid rocket booster of sorts.

- uses oxygen for fuel
125-500 units per second, 10 second reload time, total fuel capacity can vary dependent on size and meta level. no more than five seconds worth of boost.(1 cycle)

- no cap usage.

Oxygen's actually pretty big at 0.38 m3, 125 would be 47.5m3... it'd be a conscious choice whether to pack reloads or ammo/cap booster charges.

- Must be used in conjunction with MWD/AB for an additional 100% speed, with massive acceleration, but throws agility into the dirt via a mass multiplier penalty for extreme straightline speed. would negate the chances for kiter abuse, and lead to some interesting options. does not function independently.

or just swap the thorax's 5% mwd cap bonus to a 5% mwd speed one, and mirror it on other blaster platforms (brutix, hyperion both come to mind). the boats are designed to be in-your-face brawlers. let them get there.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#190 - 2011-11-08 01:59:03 UTC
Well, in short Hybrids have no real gains over the other turrets, ignoring raw numbers.

Energy turrets - 0 reloading/switching time, no real ammo to worry about. No damage type switching, can swap ammo to stay in range. Uses cap.

Hybrid turrets - 10 second reloading/switching time, ammo costs, no damage type switching, can swap ammo to stay in range, uses cap.


Hybrids have the same ammo system that alters range, but it is rarely if ever feasible to do so because it takes 10 seconds to swap ammo types. So instead of changing ammo to continuously be in optimal range like energy turrets, you end up just moving the ship instead and saving the time it takes.

So, I'd suggest changing the reloading time to hybrids to much smaller durations so that it becomes more reasonable to use multiple ammo types. In addition, a few people had talked about using much large clips (200+) as an added boosts to hybrids that doesn't involve affecting the damage or optimal numbers, but makes them more attractive over missiles and projectiles.
Iam Widdershins
Victory or Whatever
#191 - 2011-11-08 03:10:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Iam Widdershins
I think Void is fine.

I think Null should focus more on falloff; Tracking Enhancers make a MUCH bigger difference when affecting falloff than optimal, and this is telling in the fact that there are few to no reasonably long-range blaster fits, even on ships that have a falloff bonus to hybrids.

I think that hybrids, blasters in particular, would like to see a slightly bigger boost to tracking. From what I hear in the 3TBC feedback thread, most people think the Talos can't hit jack up close. Maybe they are using it wrong, I don't know.

I think the general hybrid-ship speed adjustment could be amplified a bit. I do NOT think that hybrid ships should EVER be made faster than Minmatar, or every blaster ship ever would be basically a cheap Adrestia, running down Vagabonds and tearing them to shreds.

I think that making Gallente ships in general use Afterburners like others use MicroWarpDrives is a terrible idea. Either they would be slower than they are currently, or they would be immensely overstrong in small numbers and escape ability (re: 100mn AB Tengu trend), or even both.

On a side note, I think that the disadvantages of Gallente's active tanking bonuses need to be looked at. I think that the Brutix and Hyperion hulls, as well as the Deimos, need their bonus increased to 10% per level. Currently the 7.5% per level bonus yields a 37.5% advantage over base, with no effect on buffer and remote repair; meanwhile, Amarr's predilection for resist bonuses gives those ships a 33.3% bonus to active tanking, AND buffer, AND remote repair. Currently, the Megathron has an equal or better active tank than the Hyperion when fully outfit for tank (due to an extra low slot), while many Hyperions sacrifice their seventh gun for a neut anyway, and still have no tracking bonus like the Megathron does.

I would love to see more Hyperions, if not in fleet fights; and more Rokhs (with better tracking and falloff on their blasters) would make my day. (edit: the changes to Javelin, Tremor, and Gleam are awesome -- I really like the change in trends towards a long-range game in this patch!)

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature

Iam Widdershins
Victory or Whatever
#192 - 2011-11-08 03:31:36 UTC
Rawls Canardly wrote:
- Must be used in conjunction with MWD/AB for an additional 100% speed, with massive acceleration, but throws agility into the dirt via a mass multiplier penalty for extreme straightline speed. would negate the chances for kiter abuse, and lead to some interesting options. does not function independently.

Looks like SOMEBODY wants to bump capital ships!

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature

Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#193 - 2011-11-08 04:14:55 UTC


Just a bit of brainstorming...

People have suggested that Gallente get an AB bonus which is on the surface a terribad idea simply because ABs are slower than MWDs. However, what if the gallente had the ability to fit oversized ABs and got acceleration bonus along with it. That would give a HUGE straight line speed boost and mitigate damage on the approach. It would solve cap usage problems. It would still leave Minmatar the most mobile race because an oversized AB is a pain to turn with.

THis along with a decent damage and tracking buff would fix blaster boats overall.
Monger Man
D.S.A.
#194 - 2011-11-08 04:31:09 UTC
Nemesor wrote:


Just a bit of brainstorming...

People have suggested that Gallente get an AB bonus which is on the surface a terribad idea simply because ABs are slower than MWDs. However, what if the gallente had the ability to fit oversized ABs and got acceleration bonus along with it. That would give a HUGE straight line speed boost and mitigate damage on the approach. It would solve cap usage problems. It would still leave Minmatar the most mobile race because an oversized AB is a pain to turn with.

THis along with a decent damage and tracking buff would fix blaster boats overall.


Have you every tried an over sized AB on much?

Try fitting a 10nm AB catalyst. It fits with electrons.
Now go out and try to turn at all. And see if you can keep blaster ranges.

You wont. Its a terrible fit.

Even if you could fit a web. You wouldn't be able to keep anyone in blaster range.
So then you would need an agility boost.
And then on top of it you would become immune to anything at all bigger than you hitting you.
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#195 - 2011-11-08 04:51:23 UTC
Monger Man wrote:
Nemesor wrote:


Just a bit of brainstorming...

People have suggested that Gallente get an AB bonus which is on the surface a terribad idea simply because ABs are slower than MWDs. However, what if the gallente had the ability to fit oversized ABs and got acceleration bonus along with it. That would give a HUGE straight line speed boost and mitigate damage on the approach. It would solve cap usage problems. It would still leave Minmatar the most mobile race because an oversized AB is a pain to turn with.

THis along with a decent damage and tracking buff would fix blaster boats overall.


Have you every tried an over sized AB on much?

Try fitting a 10nm AB catalyst. It fits with electrons.
Now go out and try to turn at all. And see if you can keep blaster ranges.

You wont. Its a terrible fit.

Even if you could fit a web. You wouldn't be able to keep anyone in blaster range.
So then you would need an agility boost.
And then on top of it you would become immune to anything at all bigger than you hitting you.


Yes I have played with oversized ABs. I never thought they would work as they do currently... As stated previously, it would require a fast acceleration bonus and be used for short straight line bursts of speed. Yes, an agility boost would be needed and you would not be immune to incoming damage. It would be mitigated. Taking too much damage on the approach being on of the prime problems with blasters after all.

Read the first line of my post... "Just a bit of brainstorming..." then take a deep breath and have a cup of tea. Tailor your responses in a reasonably toned fashion. We are all trying to work on this problem together.
Monger Man
D.S.A.
#196 - 2011-11-08 05:18:26 UTC
Nemesor wrote:
Monger Man wrote:
Nemesor wrote:


Just a bit of brainstorming...

People have suggested that Gallente get an AB bonus which is on the surface a terribad idea simply because ABs are slower than MWDs. However, what if the gallente had the ability to fit oversized ABs and got acceleration bonus along with it. That would give a HUGE straight line speed boost and mitigate damage on the approach. It would solve cap usage problems. It would still leave Minmatar the most mobile race because an oversized AB is a pain to turn with.

THis along with a decent damage and tracking buff would fix blaster boats overall.


Have you every tried an over sized AB on much?

Try fitting a 10nm AB catalyst. It fits with electrons.
Now go out and try to turn at all. And see if you can keep blaster ranges.

You wont. Its a terrible fit.

Even if you could fit a web. You wouldn't be able to keep anyone in blaster range.
So then you would need an agility boost.
And then on top of it you would become immune to anything at all bigger than you hitting you.


Yes I have played with oversized ABs. I never thought they would work as they do currently... As stated previously, it would require a fast acceleration bonus and be used for short straight line bursts of speed. Yes, an agility boost would be needed and you would not be immune to incoming damage. It would be mitigated. Taking too much damage on the approach being on of the prime problems with blasters after all.

Read the first line of my post... "Just a bit of brainstorming..." then take a deep breath and have a cup of tea. Tailor your responses in a reasonably toned fashion. We are all trying to work on this problem together.



You're right, my apologies.
I don't think an ab boost is a good idea for blaster boats. It again makes rails possibly op. And its a bit of a band aid to the problem.

Obviously the problem being getting in range with blasters, so an ab boost would seem to be a pretty decent idea.

I'm just afraid it would cause issues else where quickly.
Bomberlocks
Bombercorp
#197 - 2011-11-08 05:56:50 UTC
As a solution to the non use of very long range weapons like rails and cruise missiles, I suggest increasing the minimum warp distance to 250km although even 200km would be nice. This would prevent probers from allowing an on grid short range fleet to warp to the snipers.
Kiev Duran
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#198 - 2011-11-08 06:15:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiev Duran
Everyone here seems to be operating under the assumption that the only way to increase speed is by bonuses to speed. The problem with blasters and blaster boats is unique, and I believe requires an unique solution.

What about a module that increased speed by changing your top speed directly and then calculating the capacitor cost to do so? Making something like this run for a few seconds and then cycle off for several would give a large boost to speed on slower ships, while faster ships would gain less of an advantage. Giving Gallente either a speed, cap use, or duration bonus on blaster boats would allow them to "sprint" to a target faster or longer than a target could "sprint" away, while still requiring good positioning on the Gallente's part. Combining this with an inability to online ABs/MWDs while this mod is online would prevent abuse.

Very rough draft and needs some work, but I don't think we're going to find the elegant solution we want "inside the box."
Galen Enderas
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#199 - 2011-11-08 07:33:58 UTC
Maksim Cammeren wrote:
On the topic of railguns.

Railguns are designed to be long range weapons, but, as pointed out many times in the thread, they often have more range than necessary in typical engagements (especially on Caldari hulls).

What about nerfing some of their range, but increasing the raw damage to compensate?
For example:
-20% to optimal/falloff
+x% tracking (since you now use them at shorter ranges)
+20% damage
?

That way, Caldari hull bonuses are more useful in typical engagements, while the Gallente get a more powerful weapon at medium ranges.


I don't think that the extreme range is an issue, as you can switch to certain ammo types (such as antimatter) which have a negative range bonus anyway (solves that problem). What i would like to see is the ability to pull off alpha strikes similar to the mael. So possibly an damage increase for them, I would personally settle for the ability to alpha. I also believe that this will put the Rokh on the road to reclaiming it's former glory.
Skopia
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#200 - 2011-11-08 07:55:07 UTC
Concerning the following:

Max Velocity +10 on the following ships:
Arazu, Astarte, Brutix, Catalyst, Deimos, Dominix, Dominix Navy Issue, Enyo, Eos, Falcon, Guardian-Vexor, Helios, Incursus, Ishtar, Lachesis, Maulus, Megathron, Megathron Federate Issue, Megathron Navy Issue, Thorax, Tristan, Utu, Vexor, Vexor Navy Issue, Vigilant

Inertia Modifier -5% on the following ships:
Adrestia, Arazu, Ares, Astarte, Atron, Brutix, Catalyst, Celestis, Cormorant, Daredevil, Deimos, Dominix, Dominix Navy Issue, Eagle, Enyo, Eos, Eris, Exequror Navy Issue, Falcon, Federation Navy Comet, Ferox, Guardian-Vexor, Harpy, Helios, Hyperion, Incursus, Ishkur, Ishtar, Kronos, Lachesis, Maulus, Megathron, Megathron Federate Issue, Megathron Navy Issue, Merlin, Moa, Phobos, Raptor, Rokh, Sin, Taranis, Thorax, Tristan, Utu, Vexor, Vexor Navy Issue, Vigilant, Vindicator, Vulture


Don't forget the Proteus!