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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

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ONE-MAN WOLF-PACK
STACKED DECK
#261 - 2013-10-17 18:30:23 UTC
Bubanni wrote:
would be awesome if it could be placed outside point/web range of pos'es, perhaps later versions can be placed further away? (placed so it's still within turret range, but in range where one can go scoop, and warp, even if getting shot a little by the pos)


its almost like they want people to work together to rob poses. aka fun
Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#262 - 2013-10-17 18:30:40 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
they don't need any kind of protection to be set up and there is no fixed time where they can be emptied


Sounds like a great way to get lots of pvp. Drop in a rookie ship that costs nothing, wait 20 hours, come back with a hauler and maybe scoop a full load of material! yay pvp!
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#263 - 2013-10-17 18:30:55 UTC
Gekkoh wrote:

Oh, now that's interesting.

It seems that you're hinting at unannounced CCP plans to change null so that we end up with smaller, more concentrated entities, while incentivizing more players to come to null?

That would be a good thing.

A very good thing.

If that's so, I wish they'd expand on those plans :-)

CCP has had "plans" for this for the better part of a decade. It's follow-through they need.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#264 - 2013-10-17 18:33:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarnak Wulf
Thieves tapping into oil pipelines need to worry about two things:

A cataclysmic 'oops.'
Defeating the leak detection software.

This could be alot more interesting.

Edit: My Ocean 11 fantasies are ruined.
Benjamin Hamburg
Chaos.Theory
#265 - 2013-10-17 18:33:28 UTC
When you just have a couple of POS to manage, it won't be complicated to get rid off these syphons. The worse that will happen is that you loose a couple of hour of production. And for a killmail, rest assured that you will have an horde of people in lowsec that will be ready to shoot them even if it's not their towers.

What it will impact, is if you have a loadfull of POS. That one that is in a corner of you space nobody never visit, will maybe have half a dozen siphons when you will go there to fuel it/haul back your goo. And that's the whole point of it.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#266 - 2013-10-17 18:33:37 UTC
Kismeteer wrote:
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
You are in a small corp so you'd know all about it.


We know all about griefing small corporations. Your 33 man corp operate from 1400 to 2100, exclusively. Lots of time if we find one of your moons doing reactions.
Switching from spin ("This isn't going to bother us at all!") to scare tactics ("We know where you sleep")! I like it! But you have to get back on message that this is no big deal for large null alliances, it'll make things cost more, blah blah. You don't want to fall behind on your spin points for the day. I see many members of the Goon Economic Warefare Cabal posting here today trying to deliver that message, so hopefully we'll all buy it.

But that leads me to another question: why should any of us believe that you're delivering honest feedback? You've publicly expressed that you're members of the Economic Warfare Goon committee, so since that's your purpose anyway, where do you think your credibility comes from? Authoritarian speaking? Threats?

Again, the large backlash from the larger null groups here shows that CCP is on the right track, promoting tactics smaller corps can use to fight back against groups they'd be way outmanned in a "normal" fight. What's the icing on the cake is that some of the large null groups are delivering honest feedback ("This will suck for us having to monitor our large POS empires") and some are trying so hard to spin that it won't be a big deal at all ("This won't affect us much at all...").

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

>> Play Eve Online FREE! Join today for exclusive bonuses! <<

Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#267 - 2013-10-17 18:34:56 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Benjamin Hamburg wrote:

Since when GSF care for one man corp operation? Is that has anything to do with the fact half of nullsec is currently owned by CFC? Coincidence.

It does. We're basically out of people to kill, and 0.0 is getting fairly stagnant and boring.

Good news everyone, CCP has just implemented one such feature!

Nyan
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#268 - 2013-10-17 18:38:01 UTC
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:

Good news everyone, CCP has just implemented one such feature!

While I'm not sure why I would expect the person who thought anom and sig scanning uncovered things like this siphon would grasp gameplay mechanic issues, this will not lead to more small entities in 0.0. Because we'll squash them and then rent their space back to them.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#269 - 2013-10-17 18:40:06 UTC
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
- Big nullsec alliances crying...check
- Small entities joying...check

Feature is good to go :D


as good as a litmus test for a feature if i ever heard of one.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#270 - 2013-10-17 18:41:17 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:

Good news everyone, CCP has just implemented one such feature!

While I'm not sure why I would expect the person who thought anom and sig scanning uncovered things like this siphon would grasp gameplay mechanic issues, this will not lead to more small entities in 0.0. Because we'll squash them and then rent their space back to them.

Yes, I know it would be difficult for someone like you to understand how people who do sig scanning would be able to detect siphoning structures.

Nyan
Anharat
Cutting Edge Incorporated
#271 - 2013-10-17 18:42:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Anharat
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Kismeteer wrote:
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
You are in a small corp so you'd know all about it.


We know all about griefing small corporations. Your 33 man corp operate from 1400 to 2100, exclusively. Lots of time if we find one of your moons doing reactions.
Switching from spin ("This isn't going to bother us at all!") to scare tactics ("We know where you sleep")! I like it! But you have to get back on message that this is no big deal for large null alliances, it'll make things cost more, blah blah. You don't want to fall behind on your spin points for the day. I see many members of the Goon Economic Warefare Cabal posting here today trying to deliver that message, so hopefully we'll all buy it.

But that leads me to another question: why should any of us believe that you're delivering honest feedback? You've publicly expressed that you're members of the Economic Warfare Goon committee, so since that's your purpose anyway, where do you think your credibility comes from? Authoritarian speaking? Threats?

Again, the large backlash from the larger null groups here shows that CCP is on the right track, promoting tactics smaller corps can use to fight back against groups they'd be way outmanned in a "normal" fight. What's the icing on the cake is that some of the large null groups are delivering honest feedback ("This will suck for us having to monitor our large POS empires") and some are trying so hard to spin that it won't be a big deal at all ("This won't affect us much at all...").

Except that that is not the feedback.
The feedback is : we would just need to hand our moons to renters and make them pay for it and in turn use the siphon to grief other renters / people that didn't notice the meta change yet.

It's terrible in it's implementation, especially considering it's current size with 20m³ and i fully expect my beloved allies to exploit this stupidity in full force to show CCP that it's a terrible idea.

Terrible only if you think that high t2 prices are a terrible thing though.
Mister McDerp
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#272 - 2013-10-17 18:45:03 UTC
Brienna Torsti wrote:
I'm going to have so much fun spamming these around regions.

It's going to be great. Anchor them, forget about them, annoy someone somewhere who's doing a 1 man operation.
Minimum effort griefing.


But please, CCP. The API is utterly ****** as it is... Fix it before breaking it on purpose.


First that. Screwing with the API like that is... a bad direction to take.

And second, also that. it WILL be used as a griefing tool on the small guys trying to do reactions and nothing else. Enjoy your even emptier lowsec.

Marlona Sky wrote:
Loving all these afk pos owner tears in this thread. God forbid you actually need to spend more than 3 minutes a week fueling and grabbing goo right?

You have no idea how much of a pain running multiple reaction posses already is, do you? Like literally: Most People bragging about how they're doing PI make more money with less effort, less risk. The only thing they need is more characters.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#273 - 2013-10-17 18:45:39 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:

But that leads me to another question: why should any of us believe that you're delivering honest feedback? You've publicly expressed that you're members of the Economic Warfare Goon committee, so since that's your purpose anyway, where do you think your credibility comes from? Authoritarian speaking? Threats?

Our credibility comes from our long unbroken streak of being right, every time.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Vatek
Rents Due Crew
#274 - 2013-10-17 18:46:04 UTC
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:

Good news everyone, CCP has just implemented one such feature!

While I'm not sure why I would expect the person who thought anom and sig scanning uncovered things like this siphon would grasp gameplay mechanic issues, this will not lead to more small entities in 0.0. Because we'll squash them and then rent their space back to them.

Yes, I know it would be difficult for someone like you to understand how people who do sig scanning would be able to detect siphoning structures.


A plex runner scanning for signatures isn't even going to have structures on his filter and is highly unlikely to care that there is a siphon on some random moon.
Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#275 - 2013-10-17 18:48:59 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
But that leads me to another question: why should any of us believe that you're delivering honest feedback? You've publicly expressed that you're members of the Economic Warfare Goon committee, so since that's your purpose anyway, where do you think your credibility comes from? Authoritarian speaking? Threats?


I'm not a member of whatever committee you think I'm a part of, and who said this was just spinning? I'm speaking for myself. I don't help people in the Linux subforum to recruit scam people or push an agenda beyond 'Use Linux', for instance. And any credibility I have is based on my ideas, generally.

There are so many broken mechanics in eve already. Why introduce another one that is even more broken? The warp speed change I think is pretty awesome, and might kill null sec ratting as a whole, but it should be fun at least. But what else is in this expansion?

I'm the one who thinks that moon goo should just go to PI anyway, **** all POS's.

Want to make it easier for small entities to get into null sec? Fix sov warfare and make logistics easy for people.
Want to make it possible for a group to 'fit' in smaller space? Fix null sec.
Want to fix 'free money' from moons? Get rid of moons.
Want to fix risk/reward? Address level 4 missions rewards.
Want to make POS's better? Revamp them already, that was promised years ago.
Players cooped your broken system and explioted it? Give them tools to do it correctly.
We've had 'coalitions' from the beginning of eve, but zero help from CCP actually implementing treaties or anything like that.

All of these things could be what CCP is working on. Instead, they are doing additions like this. Every time we've heard some high sec player say 'Oh this will fix the blue donut!', like the moon rebalancing, has just made it worse. CCP has continually RAISED the bar to enter 0.0, not lowered it. It is very expensive, time and effort and isk wise, to put up even a single pos, not to mention take a system and/or station.

So address the fundamental problem rather than skirting it for literally years, saying 'we'll do tweaks' when these tweaks never happen.
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#276 - 2013-10-17 18:51:40 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:

I think the intention is that roaming gangs can dump them and the sov holders have an incentive to come out and stop them.



they don't need any kind of protection to be set up and there is no fixed time where they can be emptied



Well, that's great, because fixed timers don't generate small gang pvp. People in space in pvp ships do.

If you're trying defend against these, you're going to want to preempt raiders, not react to them.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#277 - 2013-10-17 18:53:09 UTC
so anyone know if the market for pos guns has gone up?

perhaps its time for me to sell of those true sansha small beam platforms now...

correct me if i am wrong but most 0.0 poses are not death stars and the majority dont even have guns on them for pos mining...

they from what i remember use the pg/cpu for resists mods and moon mining equipment.

so this could create a rush to get guns on all the poses...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#278 - 2013-10-17 18:54:49 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
so anyone know if the market for pos guns has gone up?


You have plenty of PG to fit guns on pos's, actually. We just normally don't put them up because why give something for people to shoot at?
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#279 - 2013-10-17 18:55:58 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:

correct me if i am wrong but most 0.0 poses are not death stars and the majority dont even have guns on them for pos mining...

correct, because one of the many, many things that need fixing is that pos guns are garbage and have needed rebalancing for years

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#280 - 2013-10-17 18:57:44 UTC
Gekkoh wrote:
mynnna wrote:
This isn't a bad mechanic, it's just mistimed. The tools and and incentives to want to willingly live in a smaller footprint, don't exist, and so mechanics and meta dictate that to not spread as far as you are able is to allow your enemy to do it instead. But instead of fixing that, creating those tools and incentives, and then introducing them at the same time as things like this, CCP is just hauling back and aiming a big kick in the balls at anyone playing by the current rules.

Spouting off that the solution is to just do that anyway is foolish and naive.


Oh, now that's interesting.

It seems that you're hinting at unannounced CCP plans to change null so that we end up with smaller, more concentrated entities, while incentivizing more players to come to null?

That would be a good thing.

A very good thing.

If that's so, I wish they'd expand on those plans :-)






I am hinting at nothing, merely saying that if such plans existed, that would be the appropriate time to introduce these.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal