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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

First post First post First post
Author
Uppsy Daisy
Perkone
Caldari State
#301 - 2013-10-17 19:24:39 UTC
Aryth wrote:
I would point out that no other group in EVE has the track record we do at promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment.

i would also point out that I was the player applauding CCP for their handling of Forex even when that personally cost me trillions. We championed the bottom up income, we championed the tech nerf.

But hey ignore the track record of calling the ball and then cracking it out of the park if you like because you believe it is because we are spinning, or covering our own interests.

Our track record of calling CCP out when it is warranted speaks for itself. We also support siphons as a concept just not at this level of balance because we know what we will do with it. You can choose to believe this is the truth or not but time will demonstrate if what I am saying is true and you can come back and reference this post.

However, if I were you guys, I would be in Jita right now buying up some stuff.



Yes, of course you are. Like the time CCP messed up Factional Warfare and you realised that the new rules could be exploited to make huge amounts of money.

You called CCP out straight away and told them it was not good for the game didn't you?

Oh no.

You didn't. You exploited it for trillions of ISK..

How is that "promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment."?

Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#302 - 2013-10-17 19:29:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
I like this change.

I like to explore in nullsec, and I spend a ton of time in Goonswarm territory.

Want to know why?

It's entirely undefended carebear space, with nobody protecting it, nobody around. I can go 20 or 30 jumps around in their territory and not see a single goon.

However, somehow they still manage to run their giant carebear farm 24/7 and there's no easy way to shut it down.

CCP is providing us with a tool to do just that. No more just spamming POS everywhere like a crazy person, AFK'ing, and watching your moons print ISK....

Now you actually have to defend your space!

What a crazy concept.

Love it.
samualvimes
Brothers At Arms
#303 - 2013-10-17 19:29:48 UTC
Vatek wrote:
CCP Legion wrote:
Once this is out we will be keeping an eye on how players use it, both via feedback here and metrics that we gather. We can then rebalance it accordingly to make sure it is not completely unbalanced or if it is used as a pure griefing tool for example. There are a lot of values which we can tweak relatively easily as required.


Release broken, fix later. Cool.



Yeah even I agree that on the face of it this looks a little too powerful

30 stolen, 20mil cost and 40m3 I would say is a better starting point.

However it may be everyone loses interest and in fact these don't actually blot out the sun.

We won't know till a month after the expansion

If you've never tried PvP in EvE it's quite possible you've missed out on one of the greatest rushes available in modern gaming.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#304 - 2013-10-17 19:29:58 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:

Yes, of course you are. Like the time CCP messed up Factional Warfare and you realised that the new rules could be exploited to make huge amounts of money.

You called CCP out straight away and told them it was not good for the game didn't you?

Oh no.

You didn't. You exploited it for trillions of ISK..

How is that "promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment."?


we told them, on these very forums, it was going to end hilariously badly

ccp didn't listen

aryth proceeded to demonstrate it ending hilariously badly

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#305 - 2013-10-17 19:30:03 UTC
So many Goon tears in this thread. I remember a time when they didn't take this game seriously or try so hard. What?

But I do agree, this does seem to be a somewhat questionable feature. So somebody sets up a siphon on your tower. 'Kay.

What's the point if you (the tower owner) can just stroll over to the siphon, retrieve your stolen goo and then blow the siphon up? Seems like a good way for someone to waste 10mil on a siphon for some pointless trolling. If I was gonna do that I'd just buy 10mil worth of Catalysts and go gank miners - it'd be more "fun", more profitable, and have more impact.

To even unload the siphons you are gonna need a hauler anyway. So what are people gonna do? Run Blops with covert haulers to deploy/unload these? Seems like a bit of a waste in time and materials for questionable return. And what if folks just start tossing a few small lasers on their towers? You still gonna use your 100mil hauler? Reward doesn't seem to outweigh the risk.

Only use I could possibly see for this is during an invasion where you have presence in the system, and want to squeeze every last bit of blood out of your opponent.
IrJosy
Club 1621
#306 - 2013-10-17 19:30:03 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Aryth wrote:
I would point out that no other group in EVE has the track record we do at promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment.

i would also point out that I was the player applauding CCP for their handling of Forex even when that personally cost me trillions. We championed the bottom up income, we championed the tech nerf.

But hey ignore the track record of calling the ball and then cracking it out of the park if you like because you believe it is because we are spinning, or covering our own interests.

Our track record of calling CCP out when it is warranted speaks for itself. We also support siphons as a concept just not at this level of balance because we know what we will do with it. You can choose to believe this is the truth or not but time will demonstrate if what I am saying is true and you can come back and reference this post.

However, if I were you guys, I would be in Jita right now buying up some stuff.



Yes, of course you are. Like the time CCP messed up Factional Warfare and you realised that the new rules could be exploited to make huge amounts of money.

You called CCP out straight away and told them it was not good for the game didn't you?

Oh no.

You didn't. You exploited it for trillions of ISK..

How is that "promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment."?



They fixed FW didn't they?
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#307 - 2013-10-17 19:31:10 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Aryth wrote:
I would point out that no other group in EVE has the track record we do at promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment.

i would also point out that I was the player applauding CCP for their handling of Forex even when that personally cost me trillions. We championed the bottom up income, we championed the tech nerf.

But hey ignore the track record of calling the ball and then cracking it out of the park if you like because you believe it is because we are spinning, or covering our own interests.

Our track record of calling CCP out when it is warranted speaks for itself. We also support siphons as a concept just not at this level of balance because we know what we will do with it. You can choose to believe this is the truth or not but time will demonstrate if what I am saying is true and you can come back and reference this post.

However, if I were you guys, I would be in Jita right now buying up some stuff.



Yes, of course you are. Like the time CCP messed up Factional Warfare and you realised that the new rules could be exploited to make huge amounts of money.

You called CCP out straight away and told them it was not good for the game didn't you?

Oh no.

You didn't. You exploited it for trillions of ISK..

How is that "promoting things that are good for EVE, even at our detriment."?



I guess you missed the part where we reported it, limited the abuse to a single small period, and then supported their action to take it all away? Yeah, silly things like pesky facts. We even had a pretty blog!


Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Saya Loyd
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#308 - 2013-10-17 19:31:36 UTC
if you done ​​it, you lose ~ 10 accounts


Goodbye eve ... Evil
Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#309 - 2013-10-17 19:38:52 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Only use I could possibly see for this is during an invasion where you have presence in the system, and want to squeeze every last bit of blood out of your opponent.


Yeah, we would NEVER do this to an enemy we're invading to make their stuff dry up. But :qq: goons are crying, point and laugh.

It's a broken mechanic. Even if it just further enables us to take over your region because you can't pay for it because lol your moons.
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#310 - 2013-10-17 19:40:30 UTC
Saya Loyd wrote:
if you done ​​it, you lose ~ 10 accounts


Goodbye eve ... Evil


Your stuff pls?
Or at least position of your POSs, so i can steal from them till they go offline, pls?

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.

Forlorn Wongraven
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#311 - 2013-10-17 19:46:52 UTC
Removing R64 from the game with killing those Siphons will do good things to my wallet. 150% markup is go.

Winner ATXI , 3rd place ATXII, winner ATXIII, 2nd ATXIV - follow me on twitter: @ForlornW

Tonraks
Doomheim
#312 - 2013-10-17 19:47:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tonraks
Weaselior wrote:
Tonraks wrote:
I must say i think this implementation and the idea of a goo sucking pos module, is a pretty bad feature.

It promotes afk play, and make pos-work even more bothersome and boring than it already is.


It's almost like you devs want pos's to a feature that slowly but surely gets to be a less and less used feature.



that way you can justify not fixing them because only a small portion of the community uses them!



Sigh. Just my thoughts exactly.

The thought of someone dropping a module, then going afk for a few hours, only to come back and collect goo...wow. what a great an immersive feature! - That sounds like a bunch of fun.

Seriously CCP... wake up!


Also the fact that you can have 500 of those in a prorator with expanded cargohold is pretty damn sick.
Make the size atleast 20 times the proposed idea, and it will start to make sense.



Anyway if this goes live, i'll abuse the hell out of it by using black ops ships to jump my blockade runner about, to siphon pos's completely risk free.
CtrlAltDelete Dethahal
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#313 - 2013-10-17 19:49:13 UTC
I am spending every ISK I own on these and will unleash madness on lowsec moon empires.

Get ready kids, Goons have a new feature to abuse Twisted
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#314 - 2013-10-17 19:50:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Tonraks wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Tonraks wrote:
I must say i think this implementation and the idea of a goo sucking pos module, is a pretty bad feature.

It promotes afk play, and make pos-work even more bothersome and boring than it already is.


It's almost like you devs want pos's to a feature that slowly but surely gets to be a less and less used feature.



that way you can justify not fixing them because only a small portion of the community uses them!



Sigh. Just my thoughts exactly.

The thought of someone dropping a module, then going afk for a few hours, only to come back and collect goo...wow. what a great an immersive feature! - That sounds like a bunch of fun.

Seriously CCP... wake up!


As opposed to going AFK while your moons print ISK and then just mindlessly going to collect it?

It seems to me that this is the pot calling the kettle black. Moon mining is already a passive feature....

Kiss full yields goodbye, and be prepared to defend your space, actively.

Either that, or cry like the goons. They are crying the most because they are going to lose the most.
Tiye Q
SOLAR MESSIAHS INC.
#315 - 2013-10-17 19:53:49 UTC
Callic Veratar wrote:
I find it very entertaining that players who periodically flood Jita with Tornadoes are complaining about a cheap griefing mechanic.


My thoughts exactly.

The siphon unit is not impressive and hardly qualifies as expansion worthy, but the complaints, cognitive dissonance, and hypocrisy from large coalition/alliance members is staggering.
Tonraks
Doomheim
#316 - 2013-10-17 19:57:53 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Tonraks wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Tonraks wrote:
I must say i think this implementation and the idea of a goo sucking pos module, is a pretty bad feature.

It promotes afk play, and make pos-work even more bothersome and boring than it already is.


It's almost like you devs want pos's to a feature that slowly but surely gets to be a less and less used feature.



that way you can justify not fixing them because only a small portion of the community uses them!



Sigh. Just my thoughts exactly.

The thought of someone dropping a module, then going afk for a few hours, only to come back and collect goo...wow. what a great an immersive feature! - That sounds like a bunch of fun.

Seriously CCP... wake up!


As opposed to going AFK while your moons print ISK and then just mindlessly going to collect it?

It seems to me that this is the pot calling the kettle black. Moon mining is already a passive feature....






If you think doing pos reactions is afk work, i got news for you. - It isn't.

The amount of logistical work you need to do is immense, just freightering fuel around takes a couple of JF jumps, depending on how many pos's you have.


Also the investment on sitting reactions chains up, are huge. With that amount of isk it takes, you can make far more manufactuering, with a fraction of the time and risk.






Mioelnir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#317 - 2013-10-17 19:58:19 UTC
Tiye Q wrote:
Callic Veratar wrote:
I find it very entertaining that players who periodically flood Jita with Tornadoes are complaining about a cheap griefing mechanic.


My thoughts exactly.

The siphon unit is not impressive and hardly qualifies as expansion worthy, but the complaints, cognitive dissonance, and hypocrisy from large coalition/alliance members is staggering.

While it is a little thing, it makes large pos farms over multiple regions that you only visit once every two weeks to empty the cyno and cap off the fuel, exponentially more labor intensive.
So this could really be a small pebble that starts an avalanche.
Orakkus
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#318 - 2013-10-17 19:58:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Orakkus
So, after reading a lot of the comments, I still think that in general the Siphon is a good idea, but there are some issues:

First off, no this won't break Goons, or any of the other coalitions roaming around the Eve Universe.. well, not initially anyways. That is because they have a few options they will probably employ.

Likely many of the coalitions will require alliance members/renters to perform due diligence patrols through important POS systems, destroying any Siphons they see. This will be relatively easy since you're not likely to siphon from low-value moons so everyone will know where to look, cutting the time down significantly. An interesting side note is that maybe they'll even pay those that take out the siphons with the moon goo they find. Seems easy enough to confirm as well with the killmails too. Goonswarm probably will have an automated payout system within a few month perhaps?

There will be a burst of activity to use these things against others from the very beginning, with much of the activity on the border areas, which also will limit where a response needs to be as well. Then people will start to realize that there isn't much of a profit in "medium-level" type raid operations because the cycle takes too long for a Siphon to cover its own costs as well as potential risk.

This leaves only two population types vulnerable: Small independants and Well-insulated Null-sec alliances. Both of these are subject to human cycles of sleep, laziness, ignorance, etc. These will be main prey for people using a Siphon Unit. The problem here is that a.) Small Independent are going to be easy targets.. probably run them out of space to be honest. and b.) the really juicy targets, the null-sec alliances and corporations that live far from enemy fleets, low-sec, and high-sec are not going to be easy to get to and so a typical blockade runner with, say a single cargohold expander, will have only about 5000m3 worth of loot he could potential get.

So if we break it down, using current prices of Dys, waiting the full 23 hours it would take to get a full load into your siphons, and taking into account that you will get a full load in a Blockade Runner, and your siphons haven't been either picked off or robbed by any of the locals, you will probably be bringing home a payday of $180 million isk minus the initial cost of the six siphons.. through very difficult and dangerous space. If we go with something like Neo on the other hand, you are looking about half that if everything goes perfectly meaning that you probably made only $60 to $70 mil isk for the venture. Those numbers of course would assume that the moons in question are close by.

At this point, with the current figures, I'd have to say that for a rare and industrious few this could be a profitable business. But likely it will be only worthwhile in two uses, both of these not being for proft: As a tool used to destroy and disrupt isk generation for an enemy alliance. Or as a way for disgrunted players to get back at their own alliance's profits.

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander

Mister McDerp
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#319 - 2013-10-17 19:59:21 UTC
Solution to part of the crying is simple. Make it so it actually just affect moonharvesters. People that sit on worthless moons won't care much and people that have moons worth it are at least actually big or at least powerful alliances.
pmchem
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#320 - 2013-10-17 20:04:14 UTC
Again, the solution to not rewarding AFK gameplay -- on either POS owner or griefer side -- is an actual asynchronous gameplay mechanic other than "most recent to act, wins."

Described in detail at my post on page 11 here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3749721#post3749721

https://twitter.com/pmchem/ || http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/community-spotlight-garpa/ || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal