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High Sec Income vs Null Sec Income - the reality

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destiny2
Decaying Rocky Odious Non Evil Stupid Inane Nobody
Rogue Drone Recovery Syndicate
#161 - 2013-10-16 15:49:19 UTC
I prefer, nullsec over highsec.

For the simple reason in nullsec, sometimes you dont even need to mine, for minerals. play in the belts find a hauler spawn that ranges from 100 mill - 1.6 bill in minerals. Shocked
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#162 - 2013-10-16 15:52:41 UTC
destiny2 wrote:
I prefer, nullsec over highsec.

For the simple reason in nullsec, sometimes you dont even need to mine, for minerals. play in the belts find a hauler spawn that ranges from 100 mill - 1.6 bill in minerals. Shocked


tell me, what sort of volume are we talking here?

i already make a decent income in low clone soldier ratting but I'm always interested in diversification.

forums.  serious business.
Aramatheia
Tiffany and Co.
#163 - 2013-10-16 16:02:37 UTC
incursions need work, they need to be made... different, they are too cookie cutter, and with how fragile some ships can be used but still fine (i know i have used a shield legion in hq's) they can use a change. Im talking difficulty in terms of unpredicability, random spanws of high damage that make flying a potentialy flimsy ship - like my beloved legion - a death sentence if im the primary.

But all that said incursions arent the endless isk fountain they were say 12 months ago, with many days of downtime due to the numerous large communities and all the bickering and politicing going 3-4 days a week with no high sec sites at all is becoming quite common. When they are up, if 3 hq fleets are active thats just 120 ppl making isk, out of how many would be fleet goers all up? its but a fraction.

I'd love to go spend a week brainstorming ideas with ccp for incursions, to make them more fun, and more challenging, also maybe more opportunities for more people to get into them. If it costed me a legion every month due to being blasted off the field by a random 100 outuni wave, i'd take it!
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#164 - 2013-10-16 16:03:43 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
There is always a lot of talk on the forums from the null sec cartel crowd about the profitability of high sec mission running, especially in comparison to null sec.

There are often calls to nerf nerf nerf missions in high sec and buff null sec to encourage people to move out of high sec.

About a month ago somebody ask me to test out my theory that null sec income is already vastly superior to high sec, which I believed to be true, based on my observations of null seccers running sanctums in complete safety in deep null.

So I took it upon myself to grab a couple of battleships, sneak them through a wormhole and run some sanctums myself in Goonsec.

I made around 80 million isk per hour. However I suspected that I could do quite a lot better so I did a bit of research and fitted out a passive Proteus and run some combat sites.

I made between 100 and 500 million an hour depending on the drops but the going was quite slow and I had a lot of sites stolen before completion since I'm plexing in hostile space. So I did some more research and discovered that a properly fit Ishtar can run virtually any serpentis / guristas null site.

Yesterday I made 1 billion isk in 45 minutes running The Maze, a few minutes before that I ran a Guristas Military Operations Complex and made an additional 500 million or so. Apart from the modules I looted 2 faction BS BPC's worth 600 million. I think in total I made 2 billion on both sites. About 2 hours worth of combat sites.

I can easily make a billion isk per day running between 2 and 5 sites. Sure some don't drop anything, but the majority do. The Guristas Military Operations site has 3 guaranteed (1 Hac, 2 BS) dread guristas spawns plus a 100 million in OE. The Maze is guaranteed to drop 160 mill OE and will usually drop Pith X-Type loot worth hundreds of millions.

The most common sites can be run in minutes, with a good chance at a DG battleship or an escalation to a DG BS.

I will never waste my time running L4 missions, or even L5 missions when even as a ninja plexer, who needs to cloak up for hours sometimes when Goons come into system with their silly probes, can make a billion or more a day.

Can you imagine how much alliance peeps are making having stations, fitting, friends and complete safety that I don't have the luxury of having.

Given that, what is this rubbish about L4's and their amazing profitablity??? Curious minds would like to know.




You have experienced similar to my experiences, though I did it with a T1 BC and experienced limitations in capability.


The deep dark truth is that the argument of high sec missions being some magical ISK fountain upon which hordes of carebears are suckling on and killing the game is a straw man.

The same people making that argument are also the same people who spread this notion that nullsec is a land of instadeath every 2 minutes if you are not in an alliance, that nobody stands a chance "out there".


My theory is that the people in game doing this are also the people doing similar things in real life: people working for governmental and corporate organizations whose main function is to keep people enslaved by lies and propaganda. They do a pretty good job in RL, and come to the game with a lot of practice. Look at how fast they jumped into this thread with the same boilerplate comments. Propagandists forget that there's a pattern to their rhetoric that becomes apparent over time. Not everybody need be one of them, because a lot of people lacking independent thought will start living in the false paradigm and then start defending it while parroting the same lies. We call them "mockingbirds".


So once someone breaks through this membrane of lies, they find out where the true ISK fountain really is.


If the truth were known, nullsec would become just as dangerous as highsec. Perhaps even more. Nullsec is sold on a greater carebearism. The larger alliances only manage their numbers by selling the same end results (piles of ISK) to their members as they claim is the big draw of highsec.

If it became commonplace for people to roam and seek fortune in nullsec without bending the knee to the alliances, then nullsec becomes a festering cauldron of PVP. The ISK fountains shut down, and nullsec becomes exactly what the SOV holders say it presently is to scare people away (or scare them into membership).

There are some nullsec alliances who don't follow this motus operandi. I've met them. So I must make the disclaimer that not everybody in nullsec is part of the Big Nullsec Lie.


With the changes in exploration, anybody who has the stones to use wormholes can get past the gank pipelines and bubble camps and spend weeks out there entirely alone. I was doing pre Odyssey exploration in nullsec with a T1 BC and making ISK, now it's even easier. And the SOE ships will make it even better.


Why in hell am I ratting in null when I could be making a fortune selling tinfoil in high sec?




I was expecting a tinfoil comment.

You delivered.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#165 - 2013-10-16 16:05:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:



I was expecting a tinfoil comment.

You delivered.


Seriously though, you have a major persecution complex going here.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#166 - 2013-10-16 16:12:01 UTC
TharOkha wrote:
Silvetica Dian wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Lipbite wrote:
Zappity wrote:
I've been wandering through null in an alt lately. I see HEAPS of combat sites available in both NPC and sov null. I don’t understand why anyone would run missions in highsec.


Because
  • people don't need that much money for comfortable (hi-sec) gameplay.
    • [/list]


    What 'gameplay' is there in highsec apart from mission running?



    Apparently some people see the gaining isk as the game and haven't found out that all the fun stuff comes from spending isk. That is maybe why they end up with those stupid officer fit mission running boats. They just haven't found anything to spend isk on.



    Oh right. This old fallacy. Some hisec morons "wears" officer fit. Conclusion = everyone in hisec lives like that.



    To be fair you can set up a stealth ship scanner near Osmon and spend the next few hours just drooling and wishing how Concord did not exist.

    This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
    March rabbit
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #167 - 2013-10-16 16:12:39 UTC
    Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

    Quote:
    As long as Eve has common market and global economics it is NOT single player game. And no one can be "immune to the actions of others". So where is your problem?


    Reading comprehension, apparently. But to answer the question you just gave me based on your misinterpretation of what I said, I am fully aware that this is not a single player game, nor that anyone is immune.

    The problem comes from the people who are doggedly determined to behave as if those things were true, and get butthurt and try to rally CCP about it when I point out to them that they are wrong using weaponry.

    and again: if "these people" use wrong assumptions (single player game, immunity from actions of others) and fail in this game it's their fault isn't it? CCP cannot change anything in this situation so all what these people can do is fail and whine.

    I still don't see any problem here. What bothers you?

    The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
    Krixtal Icefluxor
    INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
    #168 - 2013-10-16 16:13:13 UTC
    Another useless 9 page thread about nothing that will not make a difference at all and will never ever be read again. None of it.

    Such hilarious but actually sad head-banging instead of being productive in the actual game.

    "He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
    Kaarous Aldurald
    Black Hydra Consortium.
    #169 - 2013-10-16 16:14:41 UTC
    March rabbit wrote:
    Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

    Quote:
    As long as Eve has common market and global economics it is NOT single player game. And no one can be "immune to the actions of others". So where is your problem?


    Reading comprehension, apparently. But to answer the question you just gave me based on your misinterpretation of what I said, I am fully aware that this is not a single player game, nor that anyone is immune.

    The problem comes from the people who are doggedly determined to behave as if those things were true, and get butthurt and try to rally CCP about it when I point out to them that they are wrong using weaponry.

    and again: if "these people" use wrong assumptions (single player game, immunity from actions of others) and fail in this game it's their fault isn't it? CCP cannot change anything in this situation so all what these people can do is fail and whine.

    I still don't see any problem here. What bothers you?


    That the mechanic is broken. Fix it.

    "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

    One of ours, ten of theirs.

    Best Meltdown Ever.
    Josef Djugashvilis
    #170 - 2013-10-16 16:15:52 UTC
    Infinity Ziona wrote:
    There is always a lot of talk on the forums from the null sec cartel crowd about the profitability of high sec mission running, especially in comparison to null sec.

    There are often calls to nerf nerf nerf missions in high sec and buff null sec to encourage people to move out of high sec.

    About a month ago somebody ask me to test out my theory that null sec income is already vastly superior to high sec, which I believed to be true, based on my observations of null seccers running sanctums in complete safety in deep null.

    So I took it upon myself to grab a couple of battleships, sneak them through a wormhole and run some sanctums myself in Goonsec.

    I made around 80 million isk per hour. However I suspected that I could do quite a lot better so I did a bit of research and fitted out a passive Proteus and run some combat sites.

    I made between 100 and 500 million an hour depending on the drops but the going was quite slow and I had a lot of sites stolen before completion since I'm plexing in hostile space. So I did some more research and discovered that a properly fit Ishtar can run virtually any serpentis / guristas null site.

    Yesterday I made 1 billion isk in 45 minutes running The Maze, a few minutes before that I ran a Guristas Military Operations Complex and made an additional 500 million or so. Apart from the modules I looted 2 faction BS BPC's worth 600 million. I think in total I made 2 billion on both sites. About 2 hours worth of combat sites.

    I can easily make a billion isk per day running between 2 and 5 sites. Sure some don't drop anything, but the majority do. The Guristas Military Operations site has 3 guaranteed (1 Hac, 2 BS) dread guristas spawns plus a 100 million in OE. The Maze is guaranteed to drop 160 mill OE and will usually drop Pith X-Type loot worth hundreds of millions.

    The most common sites can be run in minutes, with a good chance at a DG battleship or an escalation to a DG BS.

    I will never waste my time running L4 missions, or even L5 missions when even as a ninja plexer, who needs to cloak up for hours sometimes when Goons come into system with their silly probes, can make a billion or more a day.

    Can you imagine how much alliance peeps are making having stations, fitting, friends and complete safety that I don't have the luxury of having.

    Given that, what is this rubbish about L4's and their amazing profitablity??? Curious minds would like to know.


    This is heresy to the 'nerf hi-sec' folk.

    This is not a signature.
    Murk Paradox
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #171 - 2013-10-16 16:18:36 UTC
    Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
    Few things here. We've already established that the upper bounds of single player income in nullsec are higher. That was never in dispute, but it sure seems to be the highlight here. Not sure why.

    Secondly, I see no screenshots or proof of this assertion of any kind. Also, the math is bad, flat out. It's not "my isk/hr is how long it took me to run it". No. It's how long you spent in nullsec before you left, which divides into your total gains. Not just "well I made a bunch of money on a lucky drop in a Guristas site, so nullsec is fine", because to anyone who has ever lived there, that logic wouldn't float if it were made of helium.

    Thirdly, it's not just one guy doing DEDs vs one guy in highsec doing missions for your math if nullsec is better. Under most circumstances you have only one guy getting the DED site (the exception being site thieving), whereas there is absolutely no limit on missions. So it's the one guy in nullsec vs 10-20 guys missioning and mining.

    No matter how you slice that, nullsec gets the smaller piece.

    Oh, and one more thing. Nullsec doesn't need it's sites buffed, either, unlike the OPs disingenuous insinuations to the effect that people claim they do. When people say they want nullsec buffed, they mean so that it's not completely pointless to perform almost any industrial task in null. Everything else is unprofitable compared to the utter ease and total lack of risk involved in production in highsec.

    Then, the thread title itself is improper, even if the OPs false assertion were correct. Nullsec isn't fine because sites are fine. Not when highsec has: missions, comparatively safe mining, total monopoly on production, etc.



    Not to mention Sov Null doesn't account for maybe what, 40% of null?

    NPC null does not work on the same scale. At all. (But then npc null is more about pvp than isk anyways so there is that).

    This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
    Erotica 1
    Krypteia Operations
    #172 - 2013-10-16 16:24:26 UTC

    Calling all highsec mission runners! The pipe is clean. Set destination to VFK.

    See Bio for isk doubling rules. If you didn't read bio, chances are you funded those who did.
    Murk Paradox
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #173 - 2013-10-16 16:29:48 UTC
    Jenn aSide wrote:
    Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
    Jenn aSide wrote:

    Because the people of high sec can't stand the thought of any risk at all.


    That's such a broad generalization I'm almost embarrassed for you for typing it.


    You can be embarrassed by the truth all you like. I remember the fanfest presentation where CCP told us that most high sec characters will never leave high sec. Sure, plenty of those are alts, but there is a definite core group of high sec players who will accept NO risk whatsoever, and we all know that.

    That's why null sec, low sec and wormholes have such low population density compared to high sec.



    Market, distribution (freight), scams etc make up that "core group". I'm almost willing to bet that missioners aren't that high of a population solely based on the fact that most missions take you into a neighboring system and the main trade hubs always have an average set amount of people in local.

    In a given session of doing missions in highsec I'll be spread out over the span of maybe 15 jumps (I don't use just one agent) and will sometimes even bounce factions just to change up the content of those missions (plus different LP rewards to buy).

    Granted, I know what you mean by highsec is highsec and not just a trade hub... but in most places I'll maybe see local at around 60 in the more heavily trafficked areas (not counting systems with ice belts) but around trade hubs and border systems it's always good for a count of like 300+ with minor fluctuations.

    The problem with highsec is that it's well, highsec. Suffering at their own victory I guess.

    This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
    Herzog Wolfhammer
    Sigma Special Tactics Group
    #174 - 2013-10-16 16:33:08 UTC
    Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
    Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:



    I was expecting a tinfoil comment.

    You delivered.


    Seriously though, you have a major persecution complex going here.



    Guess what.

    What you just posted, is another attack mode. I'm starting to think you all work from the same list.

    I'm a highly experienced forum moderator and troll since the mid 1990s. There's a pattern to just about everything, even the attacks.

    Bring back DEEEEP Space!
    Inxentas Ultramar
    Ultramar Independent Contracting
    #175 - 2013-10-16 16:34:53 UTC
    I wish I wasn't playing in hisec, lowsec AND nullsec. I don't know who's opinion to support anymore or what to whine about!
    Kaarous Aldurald
    Black Hydra Consortium.
    #176 - 2013-10-16 16:43:47 UTC
    Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
    Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
    Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:



    I was expecting a tinfoil comment.

    You delivered.


    Seriously though, you have a major persecution complex going here.



    Guess what.

    What you just posted, is another attack mode. I'm starting to think you all work from the same list.

    I'm a highly experienced forum moderator and troll since the mid 1990s. There's a pattern to just about everything, even the attacks.


    No, that's actually a semi concerned observation about my fellow player, whether I agree with him or not.

    Interpreting it as such shows signs of, at best, paranoia.

    "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

    One of ours, ten of theirs.

    Best Meltdown Ever.
    Jenn aSide
    Soul Machines
    The Initiative.
    #177 - 2013-10-16 16:55:28 UTC
    Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
    Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
    Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:



    I was expecting a tinfoil comment.

    You delivered.


    Seriously though, you have a major persecution complex going here.



    Guess what.

    What you just posted, is another attack mode. I'm starting to think you all work from the same list.

    I'm a highly experienced forum moderator and troll since the mid 1990s. There's a pattern to just about everything, even the attacks.


    When you start seeing patterns where not exist, It just means you are developing a Beautiful mind lol.

    Does EVE have a public mental health channel? Between this and other people posting about how losing in game assets are causing them real life issues, I'm thinking it might be time for one........
    Vyktor Abyss
    Abyss Research
    #178 - 2013-10-16 17:04:22 UTC
    To be honest, I tried running L4 SOE missions yesterday in High Sec with the intention of making enough LP for a SOE cloaky cruiser and frigate when they are released in Rubicon.

    I made it to the finish of 2 missions before I wanted to physically puke from the boring repetition.

    PVE in Eve is absolutely crap and has not improved at all in 8 years playing - and I have no idea how people can stomach doing it day after day. I understand people set goals of earning ISK to buy stuff, but if there's no real challenge or fun involved then who cares.

    I can't really comment on High Sec vs Null since I live in FW low sec which is quite profitable making me able to PLEX my account monthly without too much effort - at least in a FW plex you run into PVP to break up the boredom.

    However in High Sec you really aren't risking your ship or pod, so apart from the boredom you really risk nothing. I'd suggest the balance of ISK making is about right. Cheers.
    Velicitia
    XS Tech
    #179 - 2013-10-16 17:20:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
    Jenn aSide wrote:


    I'm sorry, but this sound like the "more people would leave high sec if people weren't mean to them by shooting at their spaceships in a spaceships game"

    You can qualify it all you want, but you are supporting a bad mechanic (wardecs) on the grounds of unequallity. There is no such thing in EVE, nothing is stopping those carebars from using some of their isk to hire mercs, or banding together with others in a high sec alliance, or learning how to "go guerrilla" with their operations (one of my buds has a high sec mining corp and when they get wardecced they switch to ventures and do low sec lol).



    ugh, I suck at writing ... it sounded a lot better in my head, and apparently totally came across backwards from what I intended.

    Wardecs aren't the problem, but the expectation that you're "entitled" to be able to wardec industrial corps and they're gonna stick around to get shot like fish in a barrel is.

    Changing things up so that Industrial corps see merit in deccing that other indy corp (and BOTH of them undocking and trading antimatter) is probably the best solution to this "problem". They get to shoot other "small and inexperienced" corporations, so they get their confidence (and skills) up ... PvP corps come along and dec them, and they're (hopefully) less likely to stay docked or just drop corp. Granted this might also mean that said pilots aren't just "fish in a barrel" anymore.


    I mean, that's how it was when I started -- corp(s) were industrial, but at the same time their advice was "OK, so, you're going to want to get into a Retreiver to mine really well (for a newbie) ... but before you start on that path, train Gal Cruiser 3 (because Thorax), Gunnery, Medium Hybrids, Propulsion Jamming, and [core skills] (edit - learning skills too!) so that you can come on missions, and help out if we get dec'd".

    These days it seems more like "train Retreiver, don't worry about anything else, we're just gonna stay docked up or disband the corp if we get dec'd"

    One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
    Skeln Thargensen
    Doomheim
    #180 - 2013-10-16 17:30:19 UTC
    Vyktor Abyss wrote:
    I can't really comment on High Sec vs Null since I live in FW low sec which is quite profitable making me able to PLEX my account monthly without too much effort - at least in a FW plex you run into PVP to break up the boredom.


    yeah, and you only have to waste token rats from what i recall so you can have a solo PvP fit. it's much more suited to low sec than L4s.

    and the douchbaggery around fw is just spectacular. smartbombing BS on outgates, pirate plex invasions, station camping high sec LE stores etc. it's very 'eve'

    forums.  serious business.