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High Sec Income vs Null Sec Income - the reality

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Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#141 - 2013-10-16 14:52:20 UTC
Eram Fidard wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:

and yes i think you probably do want to shoot those who can't or won't defend themselves as otherwise you would obviously go to low/null and enjoy being schooled by real PvPers as i am. Blink


I dunno, when in null you run the risk of finding someone mining or plexing or running anoms. Then since they "can't defend themselves" you have to fly all the way back with no kills.

Bushido.


eh? why wouldn't you kill it?

i would. have done actually. SB torps wrecking an noctis or exhumer is almost arousing.

if CVA make me KOS because of this then oh well. i'm not going to ***** about my niche gamestyle being cockblocked.

forums.  serious business.
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#142 - 2013-10-16 14:59:08 UTC
So, Skeln, what you're saying is that in the space of three posts, you have made yourself a hypocrite?

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Prince Kobol
#143 - 2013-10-16 15:00:03 UTC
TharOkha wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

The fact is in HS I do not need towers, do not need to log off, do not have to worry about people who are cloaked, hell I dont even have to dock up.

Its relative risk free isk that requires little to no effort and is not interrupted by CTA's, Reds, Neuts or Competition.


But its your way of EVE life. You have chosen it. You have choosed to live an alliance life. So please don't complain that you dont earn as average Hisec L4 runner just because you are interrupted by nullsec events.

Because i as averange ninja ratter/plexer earn waaay much better that doing boring HS L4s.

But ranting and begging CCP to nerf HS L4s just because of your player-made problems in null is just stupid.



Were am I complaining?

Were am I ranting?

Why would I want CCP to nerf one of my incoming streams?

Not very bright are you
Velicitia
XS Tech
#144 - 2013-10-16 15:00:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
(more quotes)
You seem to think that I need to have a reason to attack them, or that they need to have some assets worth attacking, etc.

No.

People don't do it for economic reasons(at least not right now). They do it to kill people. I don't care if all they are is a chat channel. I want to shoot at them. But because the method for me to do that is broken, then it does not matter what my intentions are, because they can just dodge it and avoid any PvP at all unless I suicide gank them. In which, my targets are considerably constrained.

I don't care if they aren't bothering me, or if they have any assets worth attacking, or whatever. Why should they be allowed to avoid PvP in a game like EVE?


Y'know ... you kinda sound like the carebears.

They think they're "entitled" to 100% safety.
You think you're "entitled" to dec anyone because "I want (easy) kills".

IMO, it's probably more the fault of the guys preying on the carebears than the carebears themselves.

I'm not saying the carebears should be immune to decs ... but there SHOULD be some balance such that the carebears do decide to go to war on their own (and probably die horribly because PVE fits gaing against different damage profiles) but at least they're up against players of their own "skill level" and aren't just getting in line to be slaughtered. And before you jump to conclusions, no I don't think wars should be "fair" or permitted based on arbitrary things (corp age, average age of the pilots, etc) -- I'm just saying that people have created an atmosphere surrounding wardecs that's the same as what's surrounding lowsec (you just go in there to die).

The only "real fix" (if it can be called that) would probably be some heavy-handed "you have to have a real reason for the dec application when you send it to CONCORD" which would just be bad overall and probably make decs all the worse...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#145 - 2013-10-16 15:08:09 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Hypercake Mix wrote:
I can safely do L4s solo with one account whenever I want and the session doesn't end with "I wish D-scan had a key-bind"


Post of the day.

it's really funny because i could say the same about my life in Rogue Drone regions in 2011. Collected 40+ billion ISK for like 6-7 months and haven't lost 1 carebear ship.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Dr0000 Maulerant
Union Nanide and Tooling
#146 - 2013-10-16 15:11:39 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


I am there to kill them. Plan and simple, if I wardec someone, I want kills.

There exists a broken mechanism that allows them to avoid any and all combat they do not choose to engage in(suicide ganking aside). That goes against the fundamental philosophy of EVE.

So, basically, I still do not understand why you, or anyone, thinks they should be able to just drop corp to avoid wardecs. Let alone how you claim to justify the abuse of this mechanic on a nigh constant basis.


lacrimo perfecto

Tell me again about how every playstyle you dont engage in "doesn't require any effort" and everyone who does it needs to die in a fire. Be sure to mention about how you tried it once but it was too easy/boring/ethnic-homophobic slur. 
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#147 - 2013-10-16 15:11:59 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
(more quotes)
You seem to think that I need to have a reason to attack them, or that they need to have some assets worth attacking, etc.

No.

People don't do it for economic reasons(at least not right now). They do it to kill people. I don't care if all they are is a chat channel. I want to shoot at them. But because the method for me to do that is broken, then it does not matter what my intentions are, because they can just dodge it and avoid any PvP at all unless I suicide gank them. In which, my targets are considerably constrained.

I don't care if they aren't bothering me, or if they have any assets worth attacking, or whatever. Why should they be allowed to avoid PvP in a game like EVE?


Y'know ... you kinda sound like the carebears.

They think they're "entitled" to 100% safety.
You think you're "entitled" to dec anyone because "I want (easy) kills".


Would you like to know what the difference is? The difference is, the way I view this is the established design intent and philosophy of EVE.

Theirs runs counter to it.

Quote:
IMO, it's probably more the fault of the guys preying on the carebears than the carebears themselves.

I'm not saying the carebears should be immune to decs ... but there SHOULD be some balance such that the carebears do decide to go to war on their own (and probably die horribly because PVE fits gaing against different damage profiles) but at least they're up against players of their own "skill level" and aren't just getting in line to be slaughtered. And before you jump to conclusions, no I don't think wars should be "fair" or permitted based on arbitrary things (corp age, average age of the pilots, etc) -- I'm just saying that people have created an atmosphere surrounding wardecs that's the same as what's surrounding lowsec (you just go in there to die).

The only "real fix" (if it can be called that) would probably be some heavy-handed "you have to have a real reason for the dec application when you send it to CONCORD" which would just be bad overall and probably make decs all the worse...


These two paragraphs mean nothing, and are just rambling.

It's the "fault" of the people who want to pretend this a single player game, or that they can be immune to the actions of others. The climate is not dictated by the predator. We just go where the prey is.

Wardeccing should be just like bounties, since their intent is the same. If I feel like putting a bounty on you, you don't get to say "nope!" abuse a mechanic, and avoid it entirely. (instead you have to repeatedly destroy noobships, but I digress) It does actually stick, and you have to do something about it if you want it gone.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#148 - 2013-10-16 15:12:32 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
(more quotes)
You seem to think that I need to have a reason to attack them, or that they need to have some assets worth attacking, etc.

No.

People don't do it for economic reasons(at least not right now). They do it to kill people. I don't care if all they are is a chat channel. I want to shoot at them. But because the method for me to do that is broken, then it does not matter what my intentions are, because they can just dodge it and avoid any PvP at all unless I suicide gank them. In which, my targets are considerably constrained.

I don't care if they aren't bothering me, or if they have any assets worth attacking, or whatever. Why should they be allowed to avoid PvP in a game like EVE?


Y'know ... you kinda sound like the carebears.

They think they're "entitled" to 100% safety.
You think you're "entitled" to dec anyone because "I want (easy) kills".

IMO, it's probably more the fault of the guys preying on the carebears than the carebears themselves.

I'm not saying the carebears should be immune to decs ... but there SHOULD be some balance such that the carebears do decide to go to war on their own (and probably die horribly because PVE fits gaing against different damage profiles) but at least they're up against players of their own "skill level" and aren't just getting in line to be slaughtered. And before you jump to conclusions, no I don't think wars should be "fair" or permitted based on arbitrary things (corp age, average age of the pilots, etc) -- I'm just saying that people have created an atmosphere surrounding wardecs that's the same as what's surrounding lowsec (you just go in there to die).


I'm sorry, but this sound like the "more people would leave high sec if people weren't mean to them by shooting at their spaceships in a spaceships game"

You can qualify it all you want, but you are supporting a bad mechanic (wardecs) on the grounds of unequallity. There is no such thing in EVE, nothing is stopping those carebars from using some of their isk to hire mercs, or banding together with others in a high sec alliance, or learning how to "go guerrilla" with their operations (one of my buds has a high sec mining corp and when they get wardecced they switch to ventures and do low sec lol).

Quote:

The only "real fix" (if it can be called that) would probably be some heavy-handed "you have to have a real reason for the dec application when you send it to CONCORD" which would just be bad overall and probably make decs all the worse...


The real fix (eliminating or giving much high penalties to NPC corps, plus having "wardecs" follow individual pilots for a period of time after they leave the crop) won't happen because CCP has to keep a bunch of squeamish video game players happy. This is also why most MMOs are themepark games.
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#149 - 2013-10-16 15:13:02 UTC
Eram Fidard wrote:
So, Skeln, what you're saying is that in the space of three posts, you have made yourself a hypocrite?


well eram, you have taken one thing that is slightly like another thing and said it's the same as another thing.

i'm not against piracy or ganking i just don't see why high sec war mechanics should be changed to allow players to grief carebears and noobs in relative safety. if i head on down to null on my todd i am in considerable danger as a neutral and especially if i **** people off.

that's why they call them 'gankbears' they're at no risk if their wartargets are weak, hiding under the wing of CONCORD.

forums.  serious business.
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#150 - 2013-10-16 15:18:57 UTC
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Eram Fidard wrote:
So, Skeln, what you're saying is that in the space of three posts, you have made yourself a hypocrite?


well eram, you have taken one thing that is slightly like another thing and said it's the same as another thing.

i'm not against piracy or ganking i just don't see why high sec war mechanics should be changed to allow players to grief carebears and noobs in relative safety. if i head on down to null on my todd i am in considerable danger as a neutral and especially if i **** people off.

that's why they call them 'gankbears' they're at no risk if their wartargets are weak, hiding under the wing of CONCORD.


Just wanted to make it clear that you think people in high sec should be safe.

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#151 - 2013-10-16 15:20:36 UTC
Eram Fidard wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Eram Fidard wrote:
So, Skeln, what you're saying is that in the space of three posts, you have made yourself a hypocrite?


well eram, you have taken one thing that is slightly like another thing and said it's the same as another thing.

i'm not against piracy or ganking i just don't see why high sec war mechanics should be changed to allow players to grief carebears and noobs in relative safety. if i head on down to null on my todd i am in considerable danger as a neutral and especially if i **** people off.

that's why they call them 'gankbears' they're at no risk if their wartargets are weak, hiding under the wing of CONCORD.


Just wanted to make it clear that you think people in high sec should be safe.


This. It's a completely binary equation so long as CONCORD exists in it's current, overpowered state.

Either I can wardec whomever I please, or else highsec is completely safe barring suicide ganks.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#152 - 2013-10-16 15:21:35 UTC
Eram Fidard wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Eram Fidard wrote:
So, Skeln, what you're saying is that in the space of three posts, you have made yourself a hypocrite?


well eram, you have taken one thing that is slightly like another thing and said it's the same as another thing.

i'm not against piracy or ganking i just don't see why high sec war mechanics should be changed to allow players to grief carebears and noobs in relative safety. if i head on down to null on my todd i am in considerable danger as a neutral and especially if i **** people off.

that's why they call them 'gankbears' they're at no risk if their wartargets are weak, hiding under the wing of CONCORD.


Just wanted to make it clear that you think people in high sec should be safe.


that's exactly the opposite of what i just said.

forums.  serious business.
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#153 - 2013-10-16 15:23:45 UTC
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Eram Fidard wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
Eram Fidard wrote:
So, Skeln, what you're saying is that in the space of three posts, you have made yourself a hypocrite?


well eram, you have taken one thing that is slightly like another thing and said it's the same as another thing.

i'm not against piracy or ganking i just don't see why high sec war mechanics should be changed to allow players to grief carebears and noobs in relative safety. if i head on down to null on my todd i am in considerable danger as a neutral and especially if i **** people off.

that's why they call them 'gankbears' they're at no risk if their wartargets are weak, hiding under the wing of CONCORD.


Just wanted to make it clear that you think people in high sec should be safe.


that's exactly the opposite of what i just said.


If they're weak, they should be safe, but not if they're strong, right?

Sandbox.

Just stop talking already.

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#154 - 2013-10-16 15:24:41 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Velicitia wrote:

Y'know ... you kinda sound like the carebears.

They think they're "entitled" to 100% safety.
You think you're "entitled" to dec anyone because "I want (easy) kills".


Would you like to know what the difference is? The difference is, the way I view this is the established design intent and philosophy of EVE.

Theirs runs counter to it.

this difference is only in your mind. That's why other people see it another way.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

It's the "fault" of the people who want to pretend this a single player game, or that they can be immune to the actions of others.

As long as Eve has common market and global economics it is NOT single player game. And no one can be "immune to the actions of others". So where is your problem?

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The climate is not dictated by the predator. We just go where the prey is.

i always like it when people pretend to be "NPC-like objects" in this game and be proud of itLol

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Wardeccing should be just like bounties, since their intent is the same. If I feel like putting a bounty on you, you don't get to say "nope!" abuse a mechanic, and avoid it entirely. (instead you have to repeatedly destroy noobships, but I digress) It does actually stick, and you have to do something about it if you want it gone.

- wardec: you pay relatively small amount of ISK to wardec and you have killrights on corp members, corp members can evade wardec by hopping corporations
- bounty: you spend YOUR OWN ISK to put bounty on someone, 20% of those receives killer of your target. Bounty itself doesn't provide you with any killrights.

As far as i see these systems are TOO DIFFERENT to be "one like other".

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#155 - 2013-10-16 15:26:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Desturned
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
I've heard that only 2 or 3 Low Sec Incursions have ever been completed, and absolutely not one ever in Null.

Yeah....that sure sounds appealing.


The ones in 0.0 are usually left to expire unless they interfere with logistics (they cynojam the entire constellation, which can be an issue) and in the cases where people actually run them, they aim to rush them and kill the mothership ASAP rather than farming them. A big issue is that incursions in hisec don't actually interfere with anything - you don't get incursion rats on the gates, concord and faction police work perfectly fine - and it's pretty dumb that something that should all but shut a constellation down is a non-factor.

I think one way to actually fix incursions would be to drastically reduce payouts once the mothership spawns. Of course people will whine about it, but they're much too farmed.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
#156 - 2013-10-16 15:27:36 UTC
It isn't the security status that determines your income - it is your creativity and resourcefulness that determines it.

Stop bitching and get creative. Stop living in just one place. Learn to leverage one region and sec status versus another. Move aroud. Stop asking for people to hold your ******* hand and work for your money.

Primary Test Subject • SmackTalker Elite
Signal11th
#157 - 2013-10-16 15:27:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Signal11th
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Bill Saisima wrote:
What I don't really see in the calculations are traveling (time lost for looking for sites, scanning them, waiting for a 2 hour gate camp to clear or go 25 jumps in other direction if possible at all). Requires 2 accounts, one with cloaky / scanner something.
Also 2 bil / hour doesn't equal 7 bil per month, I make 7 bil per month in hisec.
Living in null means protecting your space, for the 3 hours I am in game in an evening quite possibly 2 or 3 are ops where I lose money not gain.
So in long term high sec is just as competitive because of the non existant dependencies and much easier bottlenecks.

There's no travel time. I AFK in null. When I do play I scan down a site that's nearby, takes 10 minutes. Run the site. Whether that's a low end or a high end site. The bounties alone are equivalent to missioning. If I get an escalation I have 24 hours to go do it. So I slowly jump to the location, scan and run anything that is in the way. If someone comes in and camps I afk and do real life stuff.

As for 7 billion not being 2 billion an hour. I didn't say that I consistently make 2 billion an hour. I made 2 billion yesterday in 2 hours so that was 1 billion per hour.

Yesterday I played for 2 hours, why continue when I just made 2 billion. Sometimes I play for one site if I don't have time. I probably play 2 hours per night on weeknights and maybe 10 hours on weekends.

20 hours / 7 billion is a very healthy 350 million isk per hour. That doesn't include bounties.




Even fleet staging point which is one of the easier ones has two escalations which take 30 mins each with a single ship (currently a 1048dps rattlesnake) and the last room where I drop a carrier in it. All this take times which to be honest I'm not doubting the amount you can make (even then you seem to be very lucky getting drops "all the time" but your ISK per hour is complete bumpkum.

Not to mention the sites where you need at least 2000dps to kill the "structure" at the end.

I scan for two hours most days and am lucky to see even 5-10 sites which probably only 2 of these are worth running.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#158 - 2013-10-16 15:30:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Quote:
this difference is only in your mind. That's why other people see it another way.


Quite the opposite, actually. If you see it differently, then that's all made up in your head (and you've probably spent too long in highsec).

There is no getting around outright stated design intent. "Be the villain", and all that. That's an important distinction.

Nothing is stopping you from playing the game the wrong way. Heck, I can boot up Super Mario Wii right now and run him into the first pit I see, over and over again, every single time. But I'm still playing the game wrong, and I'm still wrong if I write a letter to Nintendo asking them to change it into a spelunking game.

Quote:
As long as Eve has common market and global economics it is NOT single player game. And no one can be "immune to the actions of others". So where is your problem?


Reading comprehension, apparently. But to answer the question you just gave me based on your misinterpretation of what I said, I am fully aware that this is not a single player game, nor that anyone is immune.

The problem comes from the people who are doggedly determined to behave as if those things were true, and get butthurt and try to rally CCP about it when I point out to them that they are wrong using weaponry.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#159 - 2013-10-16 15:30:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Infinity Ziona wrote:
There is always a lot of talk on the forums from the null sec cartel crowd about the profitability of high sec mission running, especially in comparison to null sec.

There are often calls to nerf nerf nerf missions in high sec and buff null sec to encourage people to move out of high sec.

About a month ago somebody ask me to test out my theory that null sec income is already vastly superior to high sec, which I believed to be true, based on my observations of null seccers running sanctums in complete safety in deep null.

So I took it upon myself to grab a couple of battleships, sneak them through a wormhole and run some sanctums myself in Goonsec.

I made around 80 million isk per hour. However I suspected that I could do quite a lot better so I did a bit of research and fitted out a passive Proteus and run some combat sites.

I made between 100 and 500 million an hour depending on the drops but the going was quite slow and I had a lot of sites stolen before completion since I'm plexing in hostile space. So I did some more research and discovered that a properly fit Ishtar can run virtually any serpentis / guristas null site.

Yesterday I made 1 billion isk in 45 minutes running The Maze, a few minutes before that I ran a Guristas Military Operations Complex and made an additional 500 million or so. Apart from the modules I looted 2 faction BS BPC's worth 600 million. I think in total I made 2 billion on both sites. About 2 hours worth of combat sites.

I can easily make a billion isk per day running between 2 and 5 sites. Sure some don't drop anything, but the majority do. The Guristas Military Operations site has 3 guaranteed (1 Hac, 2 BS) dread guristas spawns plus a 100 million in OE. The Maze is guaranteed to drop 160 mill OE and will usually drop Pith X-Type loot worth hundreds of millions.

The most common sites can be run in minutes, with a good chance at a DG battleship or an escalation to a DG BS.

I will never waste my time running L4 missions, or even L5 missions when even as a ninja plexer, who needs to cloak up for hours sometimes when Goons come into system with their silly probes, can make a billion or more a day.

Can you imagine how much alliance peeps are making having stations, fitting, friends and complete safety that I don't have the luxury of having.

Given that, what is this rubbish about L4's and their amazing profitablity??? Curious minds would like to know.




You have experienced similar to my experiences, though I did it with a T1 BC and experienced limitations in capability.


The deep dark truth is that the argument of high sec missions being some magical ISK fountain upon which hordes of carebears are suckling on and killing the game is a straw man.

The same people making that argument are also the same people who spread this notion that nullsec is a land of instadeath every 2 minutes if you are not in an alliance, that nobody stands a chance "out there".


My theory is that the people in game doing this are also the people doing similar things in real life: people working for governmental and corporate organizations whose main function is to keep people enslaved by lies and propaganda. They do a pretty good job in RL, and come to the game with a lot of practice. Look at how fast they jumped into this thread with the same boilerplate comments. Propagandists forget that there's a pattern to their rhetoric that becomes apparent over time. Not everybody need be one of them, because a lot of people lacking independent thought will start living in the false paradigm and then start defending it while parroting the same lies. We call them "mockingbirds".


So once someone breaks through this membrane of lies, they find out where the true ISK fountain really is.


If the truth were known, nullsec would become just as dangerous as highsec. Perhaps even more. Nullsec is sold on a greater carebearism. The larger alliances only manage their numbers by selling the same end results (piles of ISK) to their members as they claim is the big draw of highsec.

If it became commonplace for people to roam and seek fortune in nullsec without bending the knee to the alliances, then nullsec becomes a festering cauldron of PVP. The ISK fountains shut down, and nullsec becomes exactly what the SOV holders say it presently is to scare people away (or scare them into membership).

There are some nullsec alliances who don't follow this motus operandi. I've met them. So I must make the disclaimer that not everybody in nullsec is part of the Big Nullsec Lie.


With the changes in exploration, anybody who has the stones to use wormholes can get past the gank pipelines and bubble camps and spend weeks out there entirely alone. I was doing pre Odyssey exploration in nullsec with a T1 BC and making ISK, now it's even easier. And the SOE ships will make it even better.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#160 - 2013-10-16 15:40:46 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
There is always a lot of talk on the forums from the null sec cartel crowd about the profitability of high sec mission running, especially in comparison to null sec.

There are often calls to nerf nerf nerf missions in high sec and buff null sec to encourage people to move out of high sec.

About a month ago somebody ask me to test out my theory that null sec income is already vastly superior to high sec, which I believed to be true, based on my observations of null seccers running sanctums in complete safety in deep null.

So I took it upon myself to grab a couple of battleships, sneak them through a wormhole and run some sanctums myself in Goonsec.

I made around 80 million isk per hour. However I suspected that I could do quite a lot better so I did a bit of research and fitted out a passive Proteus and run some combat sites.

I made between 100 and 500 million an hour depending on the drops but the going was quite slow and I had a lot of sites stolen before completion since I'm plexing in hostile space. So I did some more research and discovered that a properly fit Ishtar can run virtually any serpentis / guristas null site.

Yesterday I made 1 billion isk in 45 minutes running The Maze, a few minutes before that I ran a Guristas Military Operations Complex and made an additional 500 million or so. Apart from the modules I looted 2 faction BS BPC's worth 600 million. I think in total I made 2 billion on both sites. About 2 hours worth of combat sites.

I can easily make a billion isk per day running between 2 and 5 sites. Sure some don't drop anything, but the majority do. The Guristas Military Operations site has 3 guaranteed (1 Hac, 2 BS) dread guristas spawns plus a 100 million in OE. The Maze is guaranteed to drop 160 mill OE and will usually drop Pith X-Type loot worth hundreds of millions.

The most common sites can be run in minutes, with a good chance at a DG battleship or an escalation to a DG BS.

I will never waste my time running L4 missions, or even L5 missions when even as a ninja plexer, who needs to cloak up for hours sometimes when Goons come into system with their silly probes, can make a billion or more a day.

Can you imagine how much alliance peeps are making having stations, fitting, friends and complete safety that I don't have the luxury of having.

Given that, what is this rubbish about L4's and their amazing profitablity??? Curious minds would like to know.




You have experienced similar to my experiences, though I did it with a T1 BC and experienced limitations in capability.


The deep dark truth is that the argument of high sec missions being some magical ISK fountain upon which hordes of carebears are suckling on and killing the game is a straw man.

The same people making that argument are also the same people who spread this notion that nullsec is a land of instadeath every 2 minutes if you are not in an alliance, that nobody stands a chance "out there".


My theory is that the people in game doing this are also the people doing similar things in real life: people working for governmental and corporate organizations whose main function is to keep people enslaved by lies and propaganda. They do a pretty good job in RL, and come to the game with a lot of practice. Look at how fast they jumped into this thread with the same boilerplate comments. Propagandists forget that there's a pattern to their rhetoric that becomes apparent over time. Not everybody need be one of them, because a lot of people lacking independent thought will start living in the false paradigm and then start defending it while parroting the same lies. We call them "mockingbirds".


So once someone breaks through this membrane of lies, they find out where the true ISK fountain really is.


If the truth were known, nullsec would become just as dangerous as highsec. Perhaps even more. Nullsec is sold on a greater carebearism. The larger alliances only manage their numbers by selling the same end results (piles of ISK) to their members as they claim is the big draw of highsec.

If it became commonplace for people to roam and seek fortune in nullsec without bending the knee to the alliances, then nullsec becomes a festering cauldron of PVP. The ISK fountains shut down, and nullsec becomes exactly what the SOV holders say it presently is to scare people away (or scare them into membership).

There are some nullsec alliances who don't follow this motus operandi. I've met them. So I must make the disclaimer that not everybody in nullsec is part of the Big Nullsec Lie.


With the changes in exploration, anybody who has the stones to use wormholes can get past the gank pipelines and bubble camps and spend weeks out there entirely alone. I was doing pre Odyssey exploration in nullsec with a T1 BC and making ISK, now it's even easier. And the SOE ships will make it even better.


Why in hell am I ratting in null when I could be making a fortune selling tinfoil in high sec?