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High Sec Income vs Null Sec Income - the reality

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Gustaf en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#521 - 2013-10-23 12:29:08 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Translates in my head to, we make way more doing Anoms and Combat Sites, why would we risk our ships doing an incursion?


Now we at least know you have a problem.


+1
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#522 - 2013-10-23 12:43:44 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Speaking of incursions I read this a while ago and thought it might shed some light on incursions vs anoms thing even though they're completely seperate, one solable, the other requiring fleets...

this ancient post by a single renter npc corper is irrefutable evidence of, uh, something

Ridicule again, I saw this in 0. numerous times, the Incursion was often ignored and people moved to other systems to do anoms if they could, sometimes fleets will get formed to do them, but not often as most people prefer to do anoms because they have the ships there to do them effectively rather than a ship to do the Incursion, but it is a very good point by Infinity Ziona and using ridicule just does not cut it...


But, if Infinity is ever going to obtain a high level in management like you did, isn't he going to have to learn how to deal with ridicule?


Twisted
Gustaf en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#523 - 2013-10-23 12:51:53 UTC
All I have to say is thanks to Tauranon for posting some hard numbers on mission income. They seem to be the only hard numbers this thread has.
Elistea
BLUE Regiment.
#524 - 2013-10-23 12:58:20 UTC
I must agree with Infinity on this.

HS income is pretty much in right place atm.

It has been some time since i was running L4s but as far as i remember i was earning something around 60-70 mil/h with my Paladin.
Incursions are definitely best way to make ISK in HS. (mby besides station trading) TBH i ran them a lot and i still do now and then. Best HQ fleets can reach income 180 mil/h.
Before u start complaining about how imbalanced this is, consider amount of work needed to keep 42 ppl fleet running continuosly and effectively. Being incursion FC i can tell you its not an easy task.

However all this is NOTHING compared what you can make in 0.0 or WH space.
I spent last 4 months living in 0.0 and i easyly average 1 bil/day. And that is just few hours of running sites/anomalies. That is despite constant danger (yea neighbours aren't very happy with me running sites in their systems Big smile ). Also constant availability of pewpew makes 0.0 ultimate and fun enviroment.

Thing is that in 0.0 you will lose ships either due to gangs or just random PVP. In HS you just slowly horde huge amounts of ISK without fun because they dont lose anything. I say; SO WHAT!? Let carebears live in HS with their boring income. If you feel like it or if you envy them, Gank EM!

Just dont say crap like HS is OP...
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#525 - 2013-10-23 13:08:19 UTC
Elistea wrote:
I must agree with Infinity on this.

HS income is pretty much in right place atm.

It has been some time since i was running L4s but as far as i remember i was earning something around 60-70 mil/h with my Paladin.
Incursions are definitely best way to make ISK in HS. (mby besides station trading) TBH i ran them a lot and i still do now and then. Best HQ fleets can reach income 180 mil/h.
Before u start complaining about how imbalanced this is, consider amount of work needed to keep 42 ppl fleet running continuosly and effectively. Being incursion FC i can tell you its not an easy task.


The thing is, we're not talking about the incusion FC. We're talking about the incursion runner.

Being an incursion running individual is easy. Set you alerts correctly, broadcast when yellow boxed, anchor on FC. Done.

Quote:

However all this is NOTHING compared what you can make in 0.0 or WH space.
I spent last 4 months living in 0.0 and i easyly average 1 bil/day. And that is just few hours of running sites/anomalies. That is despite constant danger (yea neighbours aren't very happy with me running sites in their systems Big smile ). Also constant availability of pewpew makes 0.0 ultimate and fun enviroment.

Thing is that in 0.0 you will lose ships either due to gangs or just random PVP. In HS you just slowly horde huge amounts of ISK without fun because they dont lose anything. I say; SO WHAT!? Let carebears live in HS with their boring income. If you feel like it or if you envy them, Gank EM!

Just dont say crap like HS is OP...


No one ever said you can't make isk in Null sec. I do so every night.

But sustainable 1 bil a day in null sec is very hard to do. So after 4 months you have 120 bil in your wallet right? Screen shots accepted.

A tech1 battleship or assault battlecruier farming the best anoms can make 60 to 100 mil an hour in null sec. A Vindicator in guristas or serp space can push 130 to 150. All not counting the rare escalations or officer spawns. If you are in congested space in an active time zone, good luck getting to the DED sites before other people. Even then you gotta move loot out of null to sell it.

And the whole time you will at least be glancing at local.

On and On and On. There are multiple reasons why experienced null sec players have high sec alts for isk making. It's because of the math: High Sec isk spends just as well as any others, for a fraction of null secs hassle (especially is you're smart and keep your isk making alts in npc corps, no taxes on LP.....).
Elistea
BLUE Regiment.
#526 - 2013-10-23 13:40:47 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

But sustainable 1 bil a day in null sec is very hard to do. So after 4 months you have 120 bil in your wallet right? Screen shots accepted.


Ofc i don't run these every day. For Example last Fri-Sun made 6,5 bil. Thing is i do also PVP on other toons so i put a lot of isk into ships&stuff. Also u need fair bit of luck and patience.


Jenn aSide wrote:

A tech1 battleship or assault battlecruier farming the best anoms can make 60 to 100 mil an hour in null sec. A Vindicator in guristas or serp space can push 130 to 150. All not counting the rare escalations or officer spawns. If you are in congested space in an active time zone, good luck getting to the DED sites before other people. Even then you gotta move loot out of null to sell it.

And the whole time you will at least be glancing at local.


I run only DED sites and data/relic sites. Rarely escalation sites. Ignoring anomalies completely.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#527 - 2013-10-23 15:04:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Tauranon wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:



Now they have decided to switch to incursions as an argument, despite specifically stating in the original thread that started all this that I was not talking about incursions and despite specifying that I was talking about missions in this threads original post.

I think its just an ego thing and they also are a bit upset that I exposed their isk printing machine most likely.


Some L4 stats for you to consider. All times are dock-dock, which I did because my agent has a habit of putting missions in the same place. (note my personal conversion was actually ~1400 because I can't be bothered moving from a navy).

@ conversion 1000 isk/lp
Dread pirate scarlet. Jumps : 2+2. Hull : Dominix. Elapsed : 25. Loot : 1 implant. effective isk/hr : 93m
Smash Supplier. Jumps 0 Hull : Dominix : Elapsed : 6 Loot : nil. Effective isk/hr 99m
Serp assault. Jumps 0 Hull : Dominix : Elapsed : 9 Loot : nil Effective isk/hr : 79m
Serp Blockade. Jumps 0 Hull : Dominix : Elapsed : 23 Loot : nill Effective isk/hr : 78m

@conversion 3300 isk/lp (best anyone has admitted to)
Dread pirate scarlet. Jumps : 2+2. Hull : Dominix. Elapsed : 25. Loot : 1 implant. effective isk/hr : 130m
Smash Supplier. Jumps 0 Hull : Dominix : Elapsed : 6 Loot : nil. Effective isk/hr 234m
Serp assault. Jumps 0 Hull : Dominix : Elapsed : 9 Loot : nil Effective isk/hr : 181m
Serp Blockade. Jumps 0 Hull : Dominix : Elapsed : 23 Loot : nill Effective isk/hr : 118m

average for an hours running in those missions at best conversion : 141m isk/hr.

How to make sure you are only doing tasty missions. use an alt to trigger more missions. Doubles the number you can free reject. find a location with 2 agents, for even smoother isk (as your rejects will be dominated by the many free ones you have)

Use the site to find the best conversions. Hint some of them are pretty stable.

Now consider how long it took to find your spot, and how much you fell behind the best converters in that time, and then reconsider when your loot streaks, which it will.

Well I just got a highsec wormhole to null. Scanned down a site, H-Crew thing I never did before because I thought it was a gas mining site. Anyway I warp to it to make a book mark and theres a bunch of npcs there so I kill them. Get my alt to hack the cans. 50 million isk strong crash bpc, cool... next can, 320 million isk skillbook... got interrupted so not sure what else is in the other cans... given that took all of 10 minutes, by your logic I guess I'm making an average of 370 million by 6

Edit: went back and got another book, nuerotoxin control, 260 million, so that's hafl a billion now? Really is this luck...

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#528 - 2013-10-23 15:19:57 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Well I just got a highsec wormhole to null. Scanned down a site, H-Crew thing I never did before because I thought it was a gas mining site. Anyway I warp to it to make a book mark and theres a bunch of npcs there so I kill them. Get my alt to hack the cans. 50 million isk strong crash bpc, cool... next can, 320 million isk skillbook... got interrupted so not sure what else is in the other cans... given that took all of 10 minutes, by your logic I guess I'm making an average of 370 million by 6


I haven't seen resistance like yours since kindergarten lol.

Did you factor in time taken to scan down a worm hole to somewhere you'd like to go into that? And what interrupted you, because it it was something in game, guess what does NOT happen in high sec.

Do you consider why sooo many other people who do PVE aren't doing what you're doing (rhetorical question, as you demonstrate you are unable to consider the situations other people have to deal with). Why do you think soooo many null sec players have high sec isk making alts? Hint, random is random.

This is what one of the posters means about your character flaws. If you were a researcher in a scientific field you'd go broke as your ill conceived conclusions were torn apart during peer review.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#529 - 2013-10-23 15:28:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Jenn aSide wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Well I just got a highsec wormhole to null. Scanned down a site, H-Crew thing I never did before because I thought it was a gas mining site. Anyway I warp to it to make a book mark and theres a bunch of npcs there so I kill them. Get my alt to hack the cans. 50 million isk strong crash bpc, cool... next can, 320 million isk skillbook... got interrupted so not sure what else is in the other cans... given that took all of 10 minutes, by your logic I guess I'm making an average of 370 million by 6


I haven't seen resistance like yours since kindergarten lol.

Did you factor in time taken to scan down a worm hole to somewhere you'd like to go into that? And what interrupted you, because it it was something in game, guess what does NOT happen in high sec.

Do you consider why sooo many other people who do PVE aren't doing what you're doing (rhetorical question, as you demonstrate you are unable to consider the situations other people have to deal with). Why do you think soooo many null sec players have high sec isk making alts? Hint, random is random.

This is what one of the posters means about your character flaws. If you were a researcher in a scientific field you'd go broke as your ill conceived conclusions were torn apart during peer review.

Well I my alt was in Period Basis, he scanned down a wormhole, took 20 minutes to find one, that had a null hole to high sec and to Tribute. That took another 20 minutes. Then my alt red rovered it to the place I wanted to go, scanned 3 systems till he found another highsec entry 20 minutes. Then it took 5 minutes to get from Jita to the high sec entrance (ended up being 4 jumps from Jita)... went to the site that my alt had saved 2 jumps over 2 minutes. 10 minutes to run and 10 to hack.

So 120 minutes for over 500 million in loot... (in case you didn't read it, I went back and got another 260 million skillbook, nuerotoxin thing).

Oh got interrupted by a scanner but he left, must have been looking for data and relics.

I think what you're missing Jen, is you Null guys don't have to be hiding, scanning down wormholes and doing all this travelling. You undock, go do your plexes, have region wide intel systems etc etc.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Gustaf en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#530 - 2013-10-23 15:28:30 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I guess I'm making an average of 370 million by 6

Edit: went back and got another book, nuerotoxin control, 260 million, so that's hafl a billion now? Really is this luck...


It all makes sense now. You got lucky scanning around a few times, had difficulty gloating by yourself, lonely in your basement (or whatever light-less cave it is that you live), went out to find a public space in which to brag about your accomplishments. You have literally spent the better part of several days now glued to your monitor, compulsively hitting the Refresh button on this thread. Alternate explanation: you are a pathalogical liar, vastly overexaggerating your spoils and underexaggerating the time you spent getting them. You enjoy lying in a public space, in order to get that hard-earned love from strangers that you never could quite get in another way. Equally plausible. Summary: congratulations, you earned a gold star. We're all so proud of you.

Am I on the right track?
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#531 - 2013-10-23 15:30:22 UTC
Gustaf en Gravonere wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I guess I'm making an average of 370 million by 6

Edit: went back and got another book, nuerotoxin control, 260 million, so that's hafl a billion now? Really is this luck...


It all makes sense now. You got lucky scanning around a few times, had difficulty gloating by yourself, lonely in your basement (or whatever light-less cave it is that you live), went out to find a public space in which to brag about your accomplishments. You have literally spent the better part of several days now glued to your monitor, compulsively hitting the Refresh button on this thread. Alternate explanation: you are a pathalogical liar, vastly overexaggerating your spoils and underexaggerating the time you spent getting them. You enjoy lying in a public space, in order to get that hard-earned love from strangers that you never could quite get in another way. Equally plausible. Summary: congratulations, you earned a gold star. We're all so proud of you.

Am I on the right track?

You want more screen shots?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Gustaf en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#532 - 2013-10-23 15:34:03 UTC
Oh and since you're actively looking for a peeing contest, during the same time you were out getting your skillbook, I ran a bunch of missions on one monitor, made about 350m isk (yes i converted the LP in a very efficient way), on another monitor, made enough real world money to buy 25 PLEX, so I guess I made 13 billion ISK in about 2 hours. Now let me go make a thread and share it with the world! All of you too should go become computer consultants! Yay!!!!
Gustaf en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#533 - 2013-10-23 15:35:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Gustaf en Gravonere
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Gustaf en Gravonere wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I guess I'm making an average of 370 million by 6

Edit: went back and got another book, nuerotoxin control, 260 million, so that's hafl a billion now? Really is this luck...


It all makes sense now. You got lucky scanning around a few times, had difficulty gloating by yourself, lonely in your basement (or whatever light-less cave it is that you live), went out to find a public space in which to brag about your accomplishments. You have literally spent the better part of several days now glued to your monitor, compulsively hitting the Refresh button on this thread. Alternate explanation: you are a pathalogical liar, vastly overexaggerating your spoils and underexaggerating the time you spent getting them. You enjoy lying in a public space, in order to get that hard-earned love from strangers that you never could quite get in another way. Equally plausible. Summary: congratulations, you earned a gold star. We're all so proud of you.

Am I on the right track?

You want more screen shots?


you mean screen shots of the endless hours you spent between your small victories? sure. along with that, post up a webcam link so we can watch you sleep at night. Better yet, let's all pull out some benjamins from our wallets, lay them on our desks, and take a picture of them. I'll even set up a picture hosting website to make it more convenient for us to post. Or we can also get out our dicks, and photograph them. It'll be about as awesome as this thread.

P.S. none of us have ever heard of Photoshop. I promise.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#534 - 2013-10-23 15:41:30 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Well I my alt was in Period Basis, he scanned down a wormhole, took 20 minutes to find one, that had a null hole to high sec and to Tribute. That took another 20 minutes. Then my alt red rovered it to the place I wanted to go, scanned 3 systems till he found another highsec entry 20 minutes. Then it took 5 minutes to get from Jita to the high sec entrance (ended up being 4 jumps from Jita)... went to the site that my alt had saved 2 jumps over 2 minutes. 10 minutes to run and 10 to hack.

So 120 minutes for over 500 million in loot... (in case you didn't read it, I went back and got another 260 million skillbook, nuerotoxin thing).

Oh got interrupted by a scanner but he left, must have been looking for data and relics.

I think what you're missing Jen, is you Null guys don't have to be hiding, scanning down wormholes and doing all this travelling. You undock, go do your plexes, have region wide intel systems etc etc.


Now, ask yourself WHY those same null residents with all those advantages have high sec alts. I know your not interesting in the reality of the situation but there it is.

You display a standard "plank" of prejudice. That is, you can see another sides advantages, but are unable to see that same side's disadvantages. The flip side of the coin is how people with a prejudice can't understand their own advantages, but can clearly see someone else's.

The above is no skin off my back, but I marvel at the fact that you can't see your own reasoning flaws when everyone else can.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#535 - 2013-10-23 15:42:23 UTC
Gustaf en Gravonere wrote:
Oh and since you're actively looking for a peeing contest, during the same time you were out getting your skillbook, I ran a bunch of missions on one monitor, made about 350m isk (yes i converted the LP in a very efficient way), on another monitor, made enough real world money to buy 25 PLEX, so I guess I made 13 billion ISK in about 2 hours. Now let me go make a thread and share it with the world! All of you too should go become computer consultants! Yay!!!!

Drugs are bad for you.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#536 - 2013-10-23 15:51:20 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Well I my alt was in Period Basis, he scanned down a wormhole, took 20 minutes to find one, that had a null hole to high sec and to Tribute. That took another 20 minutes. Then my alt red rovered it to the place I wanted to go, scanned 3 systems till he found another highsec entry 20 minutes. Then it took 5 minutes to get from Jita to the high sec entrance (ended up being 4 jumps from Jita)... went to the site that my alt had saved 2 jumps over 2 minutes. 10 minutes to run and 10 to hack.

So 120 minutes for over 500 million in loot... (in case you didn't read it, I went back and got another 260 million skillbook, nuerotoxin thing).

Oh got interrupted by a scanner but he left, must have been looking for data and relics.

I think what you're missing Jen, is you Null guys don't have to be hiding, scanning down wormholes and doing all this travelling. You undock, go do your plexes, have region wide intel systems etc etc.


Now, ask yourself WHY those same null residents with all those advantages have high sec alts. I know your not interesting in the reality of the situation but there it is.

You display a standard "plank" of prejudice. That is, you can see another sides advantages, but are unable to see that same side's disadvantages. The flip side of the coin is how people with a prejudice can't understand their own advantages, but can clearly see someone else's.

The above is no skin off my back, but I marvel at the fact that you can't see your own reasoning flaws when everyone else can.

Honestly Jenn, if I could stand the politics and make this much loot I'd be out there in an Alliance farming my ass off till I had enough to lose 50 **** fit XLASB SB Proteus every day of the week.

Makes no sense to me. They're scared unless they're in a fleet of at least 50 other people?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#537 - 2013-10-23 15:57:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
The main reason why 0.0 people have NPC or their own corp mission alts in hisec.

When alliances have ops they insist that people go to them, this can often take the form of insisting that all characters not on the op log out. So it is wise to have a toon that can do missions in case this happens, some people of course have mission alts so that if they see a CTA they do not want to do they just log in the mission toon and make ISK. Note many corps change their tax rate to 100% when ops are on.

Another thing, lots of 0.0 combat is shooting structures with the possibility of something happening, so a clever player will have a mission alt because if he sets him up to tank well he can leave it to its own devices should something go down, while if he tried to do the same in 0.0 he may have issues.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#538 - 2013-10-23 16:00:23 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Honestly Jenn, if I could stand the politics and make this much loot I'd be out there in an Alliance farming my ass off till I had enough to lose 50 **** fit XLASB SB Proteus every day of the week.


No you would not. because you'd have responsibilities to your corp and alliance mates.

Why is it so hard for you to try and understand why it doesn't work the way you think it does. If it did, why don't you think thousands of other people arne't doing the same thing? is it hard to understand that the information from which you form judgements is incomplete. A smart person knows they are missing something when things work so well yet no one else is trying the same thing.

I think what you are missing is the "introspective sense" truly wise people cultivate to help them understand situations better. I say cultivate because it's learned behavior, and you never learned.

Quote:

Makes no sense to me. They're scared unless they're in a fleet of at least 50 other people?


i know things don't make sense to you. You don't listen, so you'll never know. and no one can do a thing about that but you of course.

I'm a professional PVEr. I make good, sometimes great isk in null (and low). Ask yourself why I have high sec alts (if you have any interest in learning that is).
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#539 - 2013-10-23 16:02:00 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
The main reason why 0.0 people have NPC or their own corp mission alts in hisec.

When alliances have ops they insist that people go to them, this can often take the form of insisting that all characters not on the op log out. So it is wise to have a toon that can do missions in case this happens, some people of course have mission alts so that if they see a CTA they do not want to do they just log in the mission toon and make ISK. Note many corps change their tax rate to 100% when ops are on.

Another thing, lots of 0.0 combat is shooting structures with the possibility of something happening, so a clever player will have a mission alt because if he sets him up to tank well he can leave it to its own devices should something go down, while if he tried to do the same in 0.0 he may have issues.


And what are some other reasons? A more truthful person would consider those reason rather than just the self serving ones.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#540 - 2013-10-23 16:05:29 UTC
Lol. You know which alliances have mandatory CTAs? Dead ones.

Guys guys, I heard all about nullsec from this dude who was there in 2006.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal