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High Sec Income vs Null Sec Income - the reality

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Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#421 - 2013-10-18 20:10:09 UTC
you could always make some alt on another account and wardec them.

forums.  serious business.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#422 - 2013-10-18 20:12:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Frostys Virpio
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

Welcome to video games, where sometime, the rules can't be dodged.


Nope, just wardecs. :P


It's not dodging the wardec, it's dropping from an entity at war. The war was never declared on yourself. You can;t even declare one yourself anyway. You need a corp to do so. Not my fault if you declare war on people who don;t think there is much value in the corp itself because you don;t defend yourself in a corp war but the corp.

EDIT : If you decide for example to declare awr on Lame Corp Name, the war history will show Lame Corp Name VS ROC Academy, not Frostys Virpio VS Kaarous Aldurald. If I stop supporting Lame Corp Name, Lame Corp Name will still be at war with ROC Academy. Well not really since it would lose it's last member and close but the point is still there. I am only supporting the corp like a contractor.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#423 - 2013-10-18 20:12:41 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:




I pointed out your standard tactics, and you keep doing them, and call other people crazy.


That's just the thing, You're not pointing out any tactics (at least for me), because I'm not using any. I'm having a conversation with other game players about why I think their perceptions are messed up.

Imagining motivations if evidence of a sick mind.


Quote:

Bet you voted in 2012 thinking that would make a difference too.


That's the other reason why I call crazy on this. How does anything I post here demonstrate what I think about my vote?

WTF is wrong with you lol?



I didn't call you crazy.

Answer my question.

In the end, you change nothing in the game. But your protesting reveals much.

It's not as easy as stuffing a ballot box at a GOP convention, is it?


Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#424 - 2013-10-18 20:22:30 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:

nah not stuff like that. but things like making pos a viable target instead of being able to take them down in the 24 hours, so there's something to fight over. or making being in a corp and fighting for the corp better than being in an npc corp, somehow. incentives to drive gameplay beat draconian restrictions


People will evaluate the cost of both side of the medal (defend POS or drop a new one later) and decide if they let it go pop or not. NPC corp restriction are only gonna affect new players unless you put a cap on forming new corp. Anybody who want a corp can have a corp.

I don't think we're on the level here. What I'm saying is, your argument that wars are intended as a corp-level thing is good, but at the moment they're still not all that interesting. Some changes, for example to the relationship between NPC corps and player corps, as well as the role of POS in highsec, could make wars a good part of the game and incentivise a more dynamic highsec, within the 'wars are a corp-level mechanic' thing and without having to harm individual choice. I'm not seeking to make up mechanics to force people into wars.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#425 - 2013-10-18 20:25:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

Welcome to video games, where sometime, the rules can't be dodged.


Nope, just wardecs. :P


It's not dodging the wardec, it's dropping from an entity at war. The war was never declared on yourself. You can;t even declare one yourself anyway. You need a corp to do so. Not my fault if you declare war on people who don;t think there is much value in the corp itself because you don;t defend yourself in a corp war but the corp.

EDIT : If you decide for example to declare awr on Lame Corp Name, the war history will show Lame Corp Name VS ROC Academy, not Frostys Virpio VS Kaarous Aldurald. If I stop supporting Lame Corp Name, Lame Corp Name will still be at war with ROC Academy. Well not really since it would lose it's last member and close but the point is still there. I am only supporting the corp like a contractor.

He's more than welcome to join my wardec corp. I'll be deccing NC. shortly on a permanent basis and inviting any and all to join. I started off deccing corporations but found either they all dropped or didn't undock.

So I decided to dec alliances. Imagine my surprise (no not really) when I discovered big alliances don't drop sov and disband because a little war dec corp decced them :)

One wonders why people complain so much about corps not fighting or disbanding when there are big alliances with lots of targets available who wont drop and will fight.

Maybe they're too scared to do it and prefer soft easy indy corps.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#426 - 2013-10-18 20:29:00 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

Welcome to video games, where sometime, the rules can't be dodged.


Nope, just wardecs. :P


It's not dodging the wardec, it's dropping from an entity at war. The war was never declared on yourself. You can;t even declare one yourself anyway. You need a corp to do so. Not my fault if you declare war on people who don;t think there is much value in the corp itself because you don;t defend yourself in a corp war but the corp.

EDIT : If you decide for example to declare awr on Lame Corp Name, the war history will show Lame Corp Name VS ROC Academy, not Frostys Virpio VS Kaarous Aldurald. If I stop supporting Lame Corp Name, Lame Corp Name will still be at war with ROC Academy. Well not really since it would lose it's last member and close but the point is still there. I am only supporting the corp like a contractor.


Fortunately for everyone who lives in Molden Heath and the surrounding area, I am not in charge in ROC Academy. I am a line member, and not a super active one at that.

Secondly, I would ask you why they allow corps at all in highsec then. They can't have much in the way of assets as is, they functionally have no assets to defend, no incentive to do so, or de-incentive for failing to do so. I mean, ok, corp hangars, psh.

They have nothing to attack except their players. I mean, unless they make it so a corp that disbands during a wardec can have their hangars looted, there is no point to it except for kills.

You have no logical ground to stand on. What, precisely, I am fighting for if I declare war on Random Highsec corp #48125? Hmm? Am I trying to steal their choice Veldspar spot? I mean, I can't hurt their actual production of items, I can't damage any other assets they have.

Unless you create incentives for the attacker, it's about nothing but getting kills. If they were anything to me besides floating killmails, maybe it would be different.

But you can't steal their assets, such as they are.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#427 - 2013-10-18 20:41:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Frostys Virpio
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

You have no logical ground to stand on. What, precisely, I am fighting for if I declare war on Random Highsec corp #48125? Hmm? Am I trying to steal their choice Veldspar spot? I mean, I can't hurt their actual production of items, I can't damage any other assets they have.



Any assets they have in space if yours to take/shoot once the wardec is active. It's always been that way because thats how the rules were made. If you want them to cahge, you are more than welcome to make a proposition to CCP and see if they want it implemented. In the mean time, wardec are a corp on corp declaration. If you don;t see thier use, then don't use them. I personally have no use for a cov-op frigs and guess what, I don;t use cov-op frigs.

Wardec are not what you want, I get it but if you want that to change, convincing me that they were designed wrongly is not advancing your point. What you need to do convince CCP that they did the wardec wrong because right now, I'm pretty sure they are working as intended, wich mean as a medium to wage war between corp/alliance and other corp/alliance.

Even if you were able to loot thier corp hangar, the wardecced corp would just move whatever they have there in thier personal hangar so it's useless to give that feature.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Unless you create incentives for the attacker, it's about nothing but getting kills. If they were anything to me besides floating killmails, maybe it would be different.




If all you want are kills, you can save yourself the wardec fee by moving to low sec, null sec or WH space. Tons of kills to be had there and people can't use the individual protection there. Deccing an alliance is also a good way. They usually ahve much more stuff worth defending in space and are a bigger hassle to disband/reform.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#428 - 2013-10-18 21:58:18 UTC
Quote:
Any assets they have in space if yours to take/shoot once the wardec is active. It's always been that way because thats how the rules were made. If you want them to cahge, you are more than welcome to make a proposition to CCP and see if they want it implemented. In the mean time, wardec are a corp on corp declaration. If you don;t see thier use, then don't use them. I personally have no use for a cov-op frigs and guess what, I don;t use cov-op frigs.


That's the thing. I don't use them. It's easier to arrange for neutral reps and awox instead, thanks to the wardec mechanics allowing them to dodge decs so easily. That, or suicide gank their miners.

Because that's what people do when they want to inflict damage. If the "right way" to do it doesn't exist or is unviable, they find ways around. Because the wardec system is totally inadequate.

And if it weren't for such extreme measures as awoxing and suicide ganking... *drumroll* highsec would be completely safe. That's reason enough to fix wardecs.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Doc Severide
Doomheim
#429 - 2013-10-18 22:13:42 UTC
I don't really care about multiple 10's of billions. I have enough ISK to do exactly everything I WANT to do. It's all I need, I never want for anything...Can I afford a Super Cap, nope, but I fly solo so I don't care....I luv this game...

Everyone is always repeating the mantra "Don't Trust Anyone" ad nauseum... If I can't trust the guys I play with, why bother playing with them at all? Fly Solo...
Angeal MacNova
Holefood Inc.
Warriors of the Blood God
#430 - 2013-10-18 22:23:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Angeal MacNova
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
Any assets they have in space if yours to take/shoot once the wardec is active. It's always been that way because thats how the rules were made. If you want them to cahge, you are more than welcome to make a proposition to CCP and see if they want it implemented. In the mean time, wardec are a corp on corp declaration. If you don;t see thier use, then don't use them. I personally have no use for a cov-op frigs and guess what, I don;t use cov-op frigs.


That's the thing. I don't use them. It's easier to arrange for neutral reps and awox instead, thanks to the wardec mechanics allowing them to dodge decs so easily. That, or suicide gank their miners.

Because that's what people do when they want to inflict damage. If the "right way" to do it doesn't exist or is unviable, they find ways around. Because the wardec system is totally inadequate.

And if it weren't for such extreme measures as awoxing and suicide ganking... *drumroll* highsec would be completely safe. That's reason enough to fix wardecs.



The war dec system does a pretty good job actually.

As far as consensual fights go, when one country attacks another, the defending country has multiple options.

-Fight back
-Surrender (Give into the terms)
-Disperse (entire tribes and villages have dispersed when attacked)

Same with EVE.

With you, there is no second option because you're out to kill. There are no terms to surrender to. So that leaves them with two choices, fight or disperse. You just don't like the fact that they have that option to disperse. Much like people from war torn countries can immigrate to other countries to get away, corp member can drop player corp and fall into the npc corp to get away. You want to kill them after that, you'll have to catch them outside a station and face CONCORD if you manage to at least attack them.

Quite frankly all I see from you are ganker tears and they are sweet.

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#431 - 2013-10-18 22:35:12 UTC
Angeal MacNova wrote:



The war dec system does a pretty good job actually.

As far as consensual fights go, when one country attacks another, the defending country has multiple options.

-Fight back
-Surrender (Give into the terms)
-Disperse (entire tribes and villages have dispersed when attacked)

Same with EVE.

With you, there is no second option because you're out to kill. There are no terms to surrender to. So that leaves them with two choices, fight or disperse. You just don't like the fact that they have that option to disperse. Much like people from war torn countries can immigrate to other countries to get away, corp member can drop player corp and fall into the npc corp to get away. You want to kill them after that, you'll have to catch them outside a station and face CONCORD if you manage to at least attack them.

Quite frankly all I see from you are ganker tears and they are sweet.


The definition of tears has changed, then. As I mentioned in the post you quoted, I don't even wardec. I awox or I suicide gank anyway. Would I like (read as LOVE) a better way to introduce risk to the complacent? Sure. Do I need it to live? Hardly.

I do find your comparison of dec dodgers to war refugees very amusing however. I guess that makes CONCORD the United Nations? (if only they were as ineffective, I would be in heaven) I am curious as to why the real world references keep coming out though.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Angeal MacNova
Holefood Inc.
Warriors of the Blood God
#432 - 2013-10-19 02:07:02 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Angeal MacNova wrote:



The war dec system does a pretty good job actually.

As far as consensual fights go, when one country attacks another, the defending country has multiple options.

-Fight back
-Surrender (Give into the terms)
-Disperse (entire tribes and villages have dispersed when attacked)

Same with EVE.

With you, there is no second option because you're out to kill. There are no terms to surrender to. So that leaves them with two choices, fight or disperse. You just don't like the fact that they have that option to disperse. Much like people from war torn countries can immigrate to other countries to get away, corp member can drop player corp and fall into the npc corp to get away. You want to kill them after that, you'll have to catch them outside a station and face CONCORD if you manage to at least attack them.

Quite frankly all I see from you are ganker tears and they are sweet.


The definition of tears has changed, then. As I mentioned in the post you quoted, I don't even wardec. I awox or I suicide gank anyway. Would I like (read as LOVE) a better way to introduce risk to the complacent? Sure. Do I need it to live? Hardly.

I do find your comparison of dec dodgers to war refugees very amusing however. I guess that makes CONCORD the United Nations? (if only they were as ineffective, I would be in heaven) I am curious as to why the real world references keep coming out though.


Curious about the real world comparison? Because I started with an equal comparison to real world war and games in general (sports and board games like risk). You came back with a small mention of the sports thing and a greater emphasis on real world. Since that seemed to be the one you prefered, I ran with it.

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#433 - 2013-10-19 03:04:43 UTC
always dodge the dec

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#434 - 2013-10-19 05:12:29 UTC
Back in my day we just lined up and fought. Barring that we lined up and dared the aggressors to undock.

Eve is so different now. These days we line up and dare the aggressors to decloak.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#435 - 2013-10-20 08:04:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
You'll have to make that argument to the developers not to me. "relatively safe" is in no way similiar to "dangerous everywhere". In fact the two terms together are an oxymoron.... another word you may wish to look up.

Also, if a mod swings past I think this thread has derailed so far from its original purpose that it could be locked. I accomplished my intended goal of showing that null > high in terms of profitability.

no, you only compared selected hours of doing plexes to... you didn't compare them to anything. and gave no proof. and didn't consider any other factors related to income, population, group requirements, risk, investment or expenditure in highsec or null, except to claim that highsec is riskier than null somehow which is false

also noone used those two phrases together so i have no idea why you're going on about english we all learned in highschool

hey guys i did two anoms and got a rare drop. 300mil isk/hr just ranom anoms in nullsec

I beat you, I did 5 anoms and got lots of rare drops. 3.5 billion on a Saturday afternoon.. So Rare its Common

So missioners and miners in highsec... what was your income in comparison to this? I think its more than fair to say significantly more nerfed since that's what's been happening to high sec peeps for years. Am I right?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#436 - 2013-10-20 08:17:05 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Back in my day we just lined up and fought. Barring that we lined up and dared the aggressors to undock.

Eve is so different now. These days we line up and dare the aggressors to decloak.

Huh?

Didn't test leave to faction warfare

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#437 - 2013-10-20 08:21:41 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
You'll have to make that argument to the developers not to me. "relatively safe" is in no way similiar to "dangerous everywhere". In fact the two terms together are an oxymoron.... another word you may wish to look up.

Also, if a mod swings past I think this thread has derailed so far from its original purpose that it could be locked. I accomplished my intended goal of showing that null > high in terms of profitability.

no, you only compared selected hours of doing plexes to... you didn't compare them to anything. and gave no proof. and didn't consider any other factors related to income, population, group requirements, risk, investment or expenditure in highsec or null, except to claim that highsec is riskier than null somehow which is false

also noone used those two phrases together so i have no idea why you're going on about english we all learned in highschool

hey guys i did two anoms and got a rare drop. 300mil isk/hr just ranom anoms in nullsec

I beat you, I did 5 anoms and got lots of rare drops. 3.5 billion on a Saturday afternoon.. So Rare its Common

So missioners and miners in highsec... what was your income in comparison to this? I think its more than fair to say significantly more nerfed since that's what's been happening to high sec peeps for years. Am I right?


You literally got more rare spawns in 5 anoms than I have got in the last 5 years.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#438 - 2013-10-20 08:32:34 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
You'll have to make that argument to the developers not to me. "relatively safe" is in no way similiar to "dangerous everywhere". In fact the two terms together are an oxymoron.... another word you may wish to look up.

Also, if a mod swings past I think this thread has derailed so far from its original purpose that it could be locked. I accomplished my intended goal of showing that null > high in terms of profitability.

no, you only compared selected hours of doing plexes to... you didn't compare them to anything. and gave no proof. and didn't consider any other factors related to income, population, group requirements, risk, investment or expenditure in highsec or null, except to claim that highsec is riskier than null somehow which is false

also noone used those two phrases together so i have no idea why you're going on about english we all learned in highschool

hey guys i did two anoms and got a rare drop. 300mil isk/hr just ranom anoms in nullsec

I beat you, I did 5 anoms and got lots of rare drops. 3.5 billion on a Saturday afternoon.. So Rare its Common

So missioners and miners in highsec... what was your income in comparison to this? I think its more than fair to say significantly more nerfed since that's what's been happening to high sec peeps for years. Am I right?


You literally got more rare spawns in 5 anoms than I have got in the last 5 years.

They're not rare lol. Have you done a Pith Penal Complex before? The dot is always there. Screaming overseer is always there and always drops loot. I have never not gotten loot from him.

The Guristas Military Operations complex always has a DG cruiser, a DG battleship, and the last DG overseer. First two don't always drop loot but do often, the last one always drops loot.

The Guristas Base frequently has a DG battleship but if it doesn't and it escalates, which is often, the chain has always had DG BS's in the next few missions.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#439 - 2013-10-20 10:18:39 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

They're not rare lol. Have you done a Pith Penal Complex before? The dot is always there. Screaming overseer is always there and always drops loot. I have never not gotten loot from him.

The Guristas Military Operations complex always has a DG cruiser, a DG battleship, and the last DG overseer. First two don't always drop loot but do often, the last one always drops loot.

The Guristas Base frequently has a DG battleship but if it doesn't and it escalates, which is often, the chain has always had DG BS's in the next few missions.



Piths Penal. (ded 8) runs : 5 OPE : 400m Loot : 580m
The maze. (ded 10) runs : 1 OPE : 124m Loot : 0m
Reinvig (ded 6) runs : 5 OPE : 255m Loot : 2340m
Military Operations Complex (ded 7) runs 1 : OPE : 61m Loot : 95m
Guristas Base Runs 4 commander : 1 escalation : 1

I'd suspect that MOC is below a gurista scout outpost (highsec ded 4) in per run expectation in all honesty, and a scout outpost takes like 10 minutes to run, which MOC certainly doesn't.

and all ded 8s are notorious for pretty meh drop rates including piths penal, and that is beginning to bear out here.

and reinvig is not even null specific, can be found in low.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#440 - 2013-10-20 10:31:22 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

They're not rare lol. Have you done a Pith Penal Complex before? The dot is always there. Screaming overseer is always there and always drops loot. I have never not gotten loot from him.

The Guristas Military Operations complex always has a DG cruiser, a DG battleship, and the last DG overseer. First two don't always drop loot but do often, the last one always drops loot.

The Guristas Base frequently has a DG battleship but if it doesn't and it escalates, which is often, the chain has always had DG BS's in the next few missions.



Piths Penal. (ded 8) runs : 5 OPE : 400m Loot : 580m
The maze. (ded 10) runs : 1 OPE : 124m Loot : 0m
Reinvig (ded 6) runs : 5 OPE : 255m Loot : 2340m
Military Operations Complex (ded 7) runs 1 : OPE : 61m Loot : 95m
Guristas Base Runs 4 commander : 1 escalation : 1

I'd suspect that MOC is below a gurista scout outpost (highsec ded 4) in per run expectation in all honesty, and a scout outpost takes like 10 minutes to run, which MOC certainly doesn't.

and all ded 8s are notorious for pretty meh drop rates including piths penal, and that is beginning to bear out here.

and reinvig is not even null specific, can be found in low.

That's very difficult to believe. Those BPC's dropped from 3 of the 3 Penal Complexes I ran. The last two my alt sold also dropped from the last 2 Penal so that's 5/5. I'm not a particularly lucky person so Its not luck and the odds of it being luck are pretty low yeah?

The only BPC that I haven't seen before, that Guristas Tower, could be called rare. I imagine the Serp Prison drop rate for Vindi BPC's are similiar to Guristas Penal and they're worth a billion + so however much you like to make it look, combat anoms are extremely generous to the point its really not worthwhile doing anything else.

Personally I'd like to see the drop rates cut in half...

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)