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Dev Blog: Player Owned Customs offices in Hi-Sec

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Daenna Chrysi
Omega Foundry Unit
Southern Legion Alliance
#161 - 2013-10-01 19:08:02 UTC
Elana Maggal wrote:
Meizu Kho wrote:
[quote=Elana Maggal][quote=Andski][quote=Gizznitt Malikite]
there are other planets out there and in eve destroying the POCO and setting up your own is the economic competition. Your problem is not a problem and your solution is not a solution cause when a corp would set up both POCO's on a planet you'd ask for a third and then a fourth etc all in the name of competition while it's just laziness.


Economic competition. Not military competition.

There is no competition militarily between hi-sec players and a big alliance. If you think there is you're deluding yourself.

Healthy economic competition means resources that can't be monopolized. Here clearly you have resources that will be monopolized by those who have more military power aka the Big Alliance players.

If will really **** up the PI economy good.

It's hard to believe CCP supports this crap. And wants to call it a sand box for everyone. Sand box my ass CCP.



Having a standings demand for this would even things out to some degree, as it would reduce the number of people to who it would be worth while to kill pocos. Sure still big alliances could screw over the small guy, this being a sandbox always would leave loophole for that, but having a standings demand would reward hard work, with the chance of gaining profits from pocos.

I like to think that the sandbox should not be about being able to do everything in one go, it can make the game more interesting if you have to earn the right to do some things. Just like you have to be able to hold sov to build a super capital, similarly you should earn the right to hold pocos in highsec through earning the trust of the faction you have been working for.

Just like we have to decide the skills we want from the 28years worth of training, similarly some things should open further progress in game, through earning with hard work. I dont mean wow like grind for higher and higher lvls, just that there would be some things that are extra hard to get into.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#162 - 2013-10-01 19:08:59 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
I don't think denying acces in HI Sec should be an option.

Hi sec should be a place where new players can try out stuff like PI, having acces denied isn't realy good PR.

I'm not sure about the other changes:

one part says yeah go for it an other part is abit weary about the big alliances taking over and destroying part of the gameplay.

I'm not sure which of these to sides have won in my head.


Which brings a question to mind.

CCP: Players cannot mess with rookies in the rookie systems. Does that mean owners of POCOs in rookie systems cannot set the access to the POCO to something that denies access to rookies? Or set the tax so high they basically make no ISK while trying PI?

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#163 - 2013-10-01 19:09:45 UTC
CCP Paradox wrote:
Panhead4411 wrote:
So does this mean that in order to take down any current HS POCO's, we'll be tanking our standing with Interbus?


No standing/security or suspect flag hit will happen.


For Player Owned Customs Offices:

If you rep a POCO you aren't associated with (i.e. aren't part of the owning corp/alliance, nor an allie, nor at war), do you get a suspect flag?

If the answer isn't YES, we have a problem! Because I can then bring in a fleet of scythes from a friendly alliance and rep a poco under complete safety.


Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#164 - 2013-10-01 19:18:28 UTC
Around 10,400 planets but yes, a huge undertaking to just POCO them once. People can believe me or not. We do not intend to try to monopolize all the highsec pocos. Large effects on the system do not require that. No one should be worried about monopolies outside of certain specific criteria. Griefing, oh yes. Monopolies not so much.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
None ofthe Above
#165 - 2013-10-01 19:20:18 UTC  |  Edited by: None ofthe Above
CCP Paradox wrote:
Panhead4411 wrote:
So does this mean that in order to take down any current HS POCO's, we'll be tanking our standing with Interbus?


No standing/security or suspect flag hit will happen.


Not even a suspect flag? Oh come on! I can't shoot at the people blowing up the CO I am using? That's not EVE!

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Elana Maggal
Chandra Labs
#166 - 2013-10-01 19:24:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Elana Maggal
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Elana Maggal wrote:
Andski wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
And for others worried about GSF: Generally speaking, entire coallitions will not be able to partake in a "Highsec Poco" operations, since all member alliances won't declare war. This could create interesting "suspect timer" situations.

Also, competing for highsec resources is an Excellent addition to the game!!!


somebody gets why we literally have no ability to monopolize hisec pocos


Except there is no competition - there is only ONE customs office at each planet. THAT IS A MONOPOLY on resource access (an absolute monopoly on imports.)

If there were several custom offices at each planet - or one structure with several offices that players could select from, there then might be some healthy economic competition. ... Might be.


I suppose you could say there is no competition for moongoo either, since you can only put one POS at a moon? On a very, very local scale you are correct, but not in the larger scheme of things.

There are 1090 High sec systems and 817 Low sec represented in the "Empire Regions" chart on dotlan:
Regional Planet Distribution Charts

If we assume 50% of the empire planets are in highsec, then in any empire region you will have 100's of planets you can use in any region.
FYI, from the chart, there are 16285 planets in empire space, and we can safely estimate 8000 of those are in highsec. At 100m per poco, it would take 800 billion isk to claim them all, and it would be a logistical nightmare protect them.

The main question is, who will pay 500 million ISK to attack the GSF POCOs? Truth be told, many groups will gladly pay that for the large number of targets they get presented with. Add to that the desire to get in "fleet fights" with GSF in a "you can't hotdrop here" situation, and it is quite possible GSF will simply make themselves big targets by zealously claiming highsec POCOs.




You pretend there is like a Plasma planet in every sector, or that a hi-sec corp will simply get-up and go somewhere else just to find non monopolied Big Alliance custom office in some other system.

That's crazy talk. Let me tell you something: PI is barely worth the gameplay effort as it is. This just pretty much hands over the big profits from PI to the big alliances - as if these guys don't get enough profit from their moon goo from nul-sec.

It closes down options for hi-sec players, it makes the sand box SMALLER. It monopolizes resources and acts as if it's some kind of free market ****. It ain't. It's a MONOPOLY.
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#167 - 2013-10-01 19:28:41 UTC
Elana Maggal wrote:
Andski wrote:
maybe you can compete with the big alliances by starting a big alliance of your own


Maybe I want to play in a sand box that I can do my own thing without goons dictating what I can and can't do and monopolizing key game play elements.


It is a sandbox, you can do your own thing, and Goons can't dictate what you can and can't do, BUT CCP has repeatedly stated that your success in any endeavor isn't guaranteed. Welcome to the sandbox.Twisted

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#168 - 2013-10-01 19:30:14 UTC
The sandbox isn't getting smaller, we're just getting bigger shovels

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
Elana Maggal
Chandra Labs
#169 - 2013-10-01 19:32:48 UTC
>> You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land.
>> The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons.

Yeah - common clay morons. That's the way we are viewed by the goon turds. Who seem to think a free market is getting CPP to creating sandbox rules that benefit them and **** everyone else over.

How like the RL economy in the US.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#170 - 2013-10-01 19:35:51 UTC
Elana Maggal wrote:
>> You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land.
>> The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons.

Yeah - common clay morons. That's the way we are viewed by the goon turds. Who seem to think a free market is getting CPP to creating sandbox rules that benefit them and **** everyone else over.

How like the RL economy in the US.



Well those plebs aren't going to oppress themselves.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
JinSanJong
Doomheim
#171 - 2013-10-01 19:38:09 UTC  |  Edited by: JinSanJong
So whats stopping goonswarm or any other large null sec alliance taking over EVERY poco in high sec in no time? Because you know damn well that this is going to happen. Yet again another implementation for the nullsec alliances to make massive passive income! Arrgghhh

Not only does it cost billions to even war dec them, they can bring 100s of subcaps to defend them. Well done CCP well done.




Who thought of this absolute stupid idea?
Elana Maggal
Chandra Labs
#172 - 2013-10-01 19:45:34 UTC
JinSanJong wrote:
So whats stopping goonswarm or any other large null sec alliance taking over EVERY poco in high sec in no time? Because you know damn well that this is going to happen. Yet again another implementation for the nullsec alliances to make massive passive income! Arrgghhh

Not only does it cost billions to even war dec them, they can bring 100s of subcaps to defend them. Well done CCP well done.




Who thought of this absolute stupid idea?


A CCP goon wearing a Monocle?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#173 - 2013-10-01 19:45:58 UTC
JinSanJong wrote:
So whats stopping goonswarm or any other large null sec alliance taking over EVERY poco in high sec in no time?


the fact that we'd have to grind thousands of interbus COs or POCOs belonging to players who beat us to them, the fact that we'd have to drop close to a trillion ISK in POCOs, and place pocos on every planet

this is a ridiculous idea that we haven't even entertained because it's a waste of time

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#174 - 2013-10-01 19:50:21 UTC
JinSanJong wrote:
So whats stopping goonswarm or any other large null sec alliance taking over EVERY poco in high sec in no time? Because you know damn well that this is going to happen. Yet again another implementation for the nullsec alliances to make massive passive income! Arrgghhh

Not only does it cost billions to even war dec them, they can bring 100s of subcaps to defend them. Well done CCP well done.




Who thought of this absolute stupid idea?
Can I have your stuff?

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Elana Maggal
Chandra Labs
#175 - 2013-10-01 19:53:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Elana Maggal
It all just boils down to giving more power and ownership to the Big Alliances in hi-sec. Making hi-sec play out like nul-sec, and making the false assumption that this is how your hi-sec gaming base will want to play.

It's a shallow vision of Eve - and creates a sand box that a few big bullies end up controlling. And it sure isn't going to increase your subscription base - this kind of garbage.
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#176 - 2013-10-01 19:55:45 UTC
Elana Maggal wrote:
>> You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land.
>> The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons.

Yeah - common clay morons. That's the way we are viewed by the goon turds. Who seem to think a free market is getting CPP to creating sandbox rules that benefit them and **** everyone else over.

How like the RL economy in the US.

Those same rules apply to you as well. Just because you can't be arsed to take advantage of them, doesn't mean you get to whine and complain about how it's unfair to you.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Coras Aldeland
K32 Industries
#177 - 2013-10-01 19:59:36 UTC
"We are introducing a new trainable skill, Customs Code Expertise, which will reduce the NPC portion of the tax rate, but 10% per level (so at level 5 the NPC export tax rate will be 5% rather than 10%)."

I believe you intended to say that it would reduce the tax rate BY 10% per level?


As for the whole idea itself....I suspect it will quickly find a happy medium quickly or be a complete disaster. I hope for the first option.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#178 - 2013-10-01 20:05:32 UTC
Elana Maggal wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Elana Maggal wrote:
Andski wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
And for others worried about GSF: Generally speaking, entire coallitions will not be able to partake in a "Highsec Poco" operations, since all member alliances won't declare war. This could create interesting "suspect timer" situations.

Also, competing for highsec resources is an Excellent addition to the game!!!


somebody gets why we literally have no ability to monopolize hisec pocos


Except there is no competition - there is only ONE customs office at each planet. THAT IS A MONOPOLY on resource access (an absolute monopoly on imports.)

If there were several custom offices at each planet - or one structure with several offices that players could select from, there then might be some healthy economic competition. ... Might be.


I suppose you could say there is no competition for moongoo either, since you can only put one POS at a moon? On a very, very local scale you are correct, but not in the larger scheme of things.

There are 1090 High sec systems and 817 Low sec represented in the "Empire Regions" chart on dotlan:
Regional Planet Distribution Charts

If we assume 50% of the empire planets are in highsec, then in any empire region you will have 100's of planets you can use in any region.
FYI, from the chart, there are 16285 planets in empire space, and we can safely estimate 8000 of those are in highsec. At 100m per poco, it would take 800 billion isk to claim them all, and it would be a logistical nightmare protect them.

The main question is, who will pay 500 million ISK to attack the GSF POCOs? Truth be told, many groups will gladly pay that for the large number of targets they get presented with. Add to that the desire to get in "fleet fights" with GSF in a "you can't hotdrop here" situation, and it is quite possible GSF will simply make themselves big targets by zealously claiming highsec POCOs.




You pretend there is like a Plasma planet in every sector, or that a hi-sec corp will simply get-up and go somewhere else just to find non monopolied Big Alliance custom office in some other system.

That's crazy talk. Let me tell you something: PI is barely worth the gameplay effort as it is. This just pretty much hands over the big profits from PI to the big alliances - as if these guys don't get enough profit from their moon goo from nul-sec.

It closes down options for hi-sec players, it makes the sand box SMALLER. It monopolizes resources and acts as if it's some kind of free market ****. It ain't. It's a MONOPOLY.


First off, POCO's in nullsec won't have the 10% NPC tax rate (5% with skills). This is a HUGE deal, as Big Alliances have logistics chains setup to really minimize the efforts required to move PI goods back and forth.

Highsec POCO's will also see a general reduction in cost of usage. Sure, some entities may block Plasma planets to "block usage", but even if goons setup every POCO at 5% tax rates, and your an unskilled new player, 15% (5 to goons, 10 to NPC) is still cheaper than 17%.

This change makes highsec PI more viable.
This change adds highsec targets to spark wars over.
This adds a new income stream for entrepreneurial groups.
This adds a new method to conduct economic manipulation of markets (instead of Ice interdiction, we get Enriched Uranium Interdictions).

How can you possibly think this is bad for the game?
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#179 - 2013-10-01 20:10:16 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

First off, POCO's in nullsec won't have the 10% NPC tax rate (5% with skills). This is a HUGE deal, as Big Alliances have logistics chains setup to really minimize the efforts required to move PI goods back and forth.

Highsec POCO's will also see a general reduction in cost of usage. Sure, some entities may block Plasma planets to "block usage", but even if goons setup every POCO at 5% tax rates, and your an unskilled new player, 15% (5 to goons, 10 to NPC) is still cheaper than 17%.

This change makes highsec PI more viable.
This change adds highsec targets to spark wars over.
This adds a new income stream for entrepreneurial groups.
This adds a new method to conduct economic manipulation of markets (instead of Ice interdiction, we get Enriched Uranium Interdictions).

How can you possibly think this is bad for the game?

This guy gets it.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Swidgen
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#180 - 2013-10-01 20:13:18 UTC
Callic Veratar wrote:
Guess I might as well delete my PI now...

Come on, admit it... it wasn't really much fun anyway.