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Dev Blog: Player Owned Customs offices in Hi-Sec

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Aliath Sunstrike
#141 - 2013-10-01 18:19:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliath Sunstrike
Weaselior wrote:
Aliath Sunstrike wrote:

The problem is (as always and in US history) is that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer and we all suffer from the short-sighted greed that is your master plan or that plan of anyone being so space-rich they run out of ideas except to terrorize other people.

i didn't start out able to buy and sell you hundreds of times i worked my way to the top



Yes you probably did....IN A BALANCED SYSTEM which you took for granted and are now apparently set upon destroying. That is the presumption I am trying to get across - a la theory crafting. Just keep that in mind.

Not bashing the hi-sec POCO idea, just trying to advance the conversation with this axiom in the minds of the readers and controllers (CCP and the goons :)


Also - with that - I am out of this thread. Too much real life time wasted. EVE is great and all but this game turns to work really quick sometimes. Today - case in point.

You are all welcome for the education I provided you free of charge.

What?

Continuous player since 2007.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#142 - 2013-10-01 18:20:44 UTC
Michael Turate wrote:
Superb changes, you little anti-social guys need to pick a side and then buy a microphone. Remember that CCP makes the sandbox and the dimensions and rules of the sandbox are down to their designs. There has been YEARS of notice that high sec changes were coming and that the sandbox would be adjusted to make co-operative play work better than lone wolfing. Eve played as a socially co-operative experience was always the stated aim of the developers, the game is much better played that way in any case. This is the future and there's no going back now, more to follow I'm sure, explosions incoming.


You obviously don't understand the point of a Sandbox. EVE is not about "socially co-operative experience", it is about "socially co-operative experience" AND "lone wolfing", it is about choice; and with this, CCP takes away a lot of choice in order for some entities to impose their values and ideas on others.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#143 - 2013-10-01 18:23:51 UTC
I don't think denying acces in HI Sec should be an option.

Hi sec should be a place where new players can try out stuff like PI, having acces denied isn't realy good PR.

I'm not sure about the other changes:

one part says yeah go for it an other part is abit weary about the big alliances taking over and destroying part of the gameplay.

I'm not sure which of these to sides have won in my head.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#144 - 2013-10-01 18:24:16 UTC

A few things:

If you rep a POCO you aren't associated with (i.e. aren't part of the owning corp/alliance, nor an allie, nor at war), do you get a suspect flag?


And for others worried about GSF: Generally speaking, entire coallitions will not be able to partake in a "Highsec Poco" operations, since all member alliances won't declare war. This could create interesting "suspect timer" situations.

Also, competing for highsec resources is an Excellent addition to the game!!!
Wyn Pharoh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#145 - 2013-10-01 18:26:29 UTC
I'm so glad to hear that there will still be some NPC tax on PI goods! It's a rather clever compromise that will allow a player group to takeover a POCO and attract some traffic if they keep the overall tax rate modest. Anything over the top would be financially absurd, especially considering the vast number of planets available. By keeping at least 5% NPC tax, with best skills, Null, WH and Lowsec entities will have a much lower financial incentive to try and abuse holding these POCO's for their own use. There are significant costs involved with PI outside of Hisec, so it makes sense to ensure there is some ceiling in place to keep Hisec production from overtaking all PI production overall.

I am pretty concerned about the idea of attaching POCO conflicts to wardecs. The speculation that wardec costs will act as a shield for larger entities to bully POCO holdings with impunity is no idle speculation. The wardec mechanics themselves have quite a few critics, and throwing POCO mechanics into the mess will isolate and/or inflame a fair number of folks.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#146 - 2013-10-01 18:33:48 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
And for others worried about GSF: Generally speaking, entire coallitions will not be able to partake in a "Highsec Poco" operations, since all member alliances won't declare war. This could create interesting "suspect timer" situations.

Also, competing for highsec resources is an Excellent addition to the game!!!


somebody gets why we literally have no ability to monopolize hisec pocos

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
None ofthe Above
#147 - 2013-10-01 18:34:38 UTC  |  Edited by: None ofthe Above
Andski wrote:
Elana Maggal wrote:
Influence - monopolize no.


who says we're aiming to monopolize anything


Any chance to take advantage, you guys will take. That's the goon way, no?

Not tinfoiling here. Just looking at the track record. Even when you are out to improve the game, you do it by showing how bad something can be exploited. I don't even resent you for it. It's just is what it is.

I grant you that taking over every last Poco is probably more effort :effort: than the CFC would care to put into this.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Elana Maggal
Chandra Labs
#148 - 2013-10-01 18:35:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Elana Maggal
Putting aside the trash talking (which was amusing) let me repeat something I said in an earlier post:

The flaw in the current plans is the ability for Big Alliances and Power players to MONOPOLIZE a single planet's custom office.

You need to have some economic competition - you know, a free market.

Which means you either need to have several OFFICES at a single custom's space that an Eve player can select what rate he wants to do his transaction with OR you can have several custom offices at a single planet - each controlled separately.

The Big Alliances will probably still take over the key planets in hi-sec, (Plasma planets for example) - but if a hi-sec player has a choice of which custom's tariff he has to pay - the Big Alliances will have to compete economically for the best rates.

Along with the Big Alliances having to compete with each other - there should also be one NPC Custom office that is set at a very high tax rate - that players can go to - if they do not want to deal with the Big Alliance turd's controlling their game play in hi-sec (which supposedly is suppose to be relatively free from nul-sec sociopathic alliance leader control)
Elana Maggal
Chandra Labs
#149 - 2013-10-01 18:36:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Elana Maggal
Andski wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
And for others worried about GSF: Generally speaking, entire coallitions will not be able to partake in a "Highsec Poco" operations, since all member alliances won't declare war. This could create interesting "suspect timer" situations.

Also, competing for highsec resources is an Excellent addition to the game!!!


somebody gets why we literally have no ability to monopolize hisec pocos


Except there is no competition - there is only ONE customs office at each planet. THAT IS A MONOPOLY on resource access (an absolute monopoly on imports.)

If there were several custom offices at each planet - or one structure with several offices that players could select from, there then might be some healthy economic competition. ... Might be.
None ofthe Above
#150 - 2013-10-01 18:37:41 UTC
Kinis Deren wrote:
Quickly scanned through thread and didn't see this being asked:

Has any provision been made for new player PI access as part of the NPE?


Nope

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#151 - 2013-10-01 18:38:42 UTC
if you don't like the guys running the poco on a planet, you can kill the poco or set up on another planet

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Elana Maggal
Chandra Labs
#152 - 2013-10-01 18:41:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Elana Maggal
Andski wrote:
if you don't like the guys running the poco on a planet, you can kill the poco or set up on another planet


BS Not so easy.

But then again PI is crap anyway. And these new proposed rules just make it even more dense crap.
None ofthe Above
#153 - 2013-10-01 18:42:35 UTC
Also while you at this, it might be smart to work on PI itself.

Just a simple things even like an "Apply" button on that "You have unapplied changes. Discard/Cancel" dialog.

Otherwise, set up simplification and in game help come to mind.

Traditional thing CCP has done to attract attention to something they want people doing and being a conflict driver is to throw mad ISK at it. One wonders if that will happen here at the eleventh hour. (Cf. Incursions, FW, Anomalies at various times)

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Meizu Kho
Kho Incorporated
The Lone Space Wolves
#154 - 2013-10-01 18:43:25 UTC
Elana Maggal wrote:
Andski wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
And for others worried about GSF: Generally speaking, entire coallitions will not be able to partake in a "Highsec Poco" operations, since all member alliances won't declare war. This could create interesting "suspect timer" situations.

Also, competing for highsec resources is an Excellent addition to the game!!!


somebody gets why we literally have no ability to monopolize hisec pocos


Except there is no competition - there is only ONE customs office at each planet. THAT IS A MONOPOLY on resource access (an absolute monopoly on imports.)

If there were several custom offices at each planet - or one structure with several offices that players could select from, there then might be some healthy economic competition.


there are other planets out there and in eve destroying the POCO and setting up your own is the economic competition. Your problem is not a problem and your solution is not a solution cause when a corp would set up both POCO's on a planet you'd ask for a third and then a fourth etc all in the name of competition while it's just laziness.
Mangala Solaris
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#155 - 2013-10-01 18:46:43 UTC
Elana Maggal wrote:
Andski wrote:
if you don't like the guys running the poco on a planet, you can kill the poco or set up on another planet


BS Not so easy.


You want a POCO gone, RvB would do it, assuming it wasnt one of ours. We'll happily undertake the content you do not want too, it'll just cost is all.
Maynard GKrebs
Old School Hipsters
#156 - 2013-10-01 18:47:22 UTC
If CCP needs the ISK sink from PI to keep inflation in check, they should leave things as they are. All of hi-sec is a level playing field with the risks/rewards between hi-, low- and null-sec determining who mines where. Allowing player entities to add a layer of taxation over the NPC tax will only discourage hi-sec PI.

If CCP doesn't need the ISK sink, they should allow the POCO owners all the tax at whatever rate they want. A lower-than-NPC tax rate would incentivise PI at a planet.

IMO adding yet another skill to lower NPC taxes is a Bad Idea - the original idea behind PI was to give new players a low-effort source of recurring income. As it stands now, getting the most from PI already requires a full month's skill training. Adding to that training burden only takes us farther from PI's original purpose.
Elana Maggal
Chandra Labs
#157 - 2013-10-01 18:49:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Elana Maggal
Meizu Kho wrote:
[quote=Elana Maggal][quote=Andski][quote=Gizznitt Malikite]
there are other planets out there and in eve destroying the POCO and setting up your own is the economic competition. Your problem is not a problem and your solution is not a solution cause when a corp would set up both POCO's on a planet you'd ask for a third and then a fourth etc all in the name of competition while it's just laziness.


Economic competition. Not military competition.

There is no competition militarily between hi-sec players and a big alliance. If you think there is you're deluding yourself.

Healthy economic competition means resources that can't be monopolized. Here clearly you have resources that will be monopolized by those who have more military power aka the Big Alliance players.

If will really **** up the PI economy good.

It's hard to believe CCP supports this crap. And wants to call it a sand box for everyone. Sand box my ass CCP.
Adunh Slavy
#158 - 2013-10-01 18:56:09 UTC
Disappointed that the NPC taxes are still in place. Hopefully someday this "half way" step will be eliminated. We want the sticky fingers of NPC government and regulations out of our sandbox.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#159 - 2013-10-01 18:58:24 UTC
Elana Maggal wrote:
Andski wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
And for others worried about GSF: Generally speaking, entire coallitions will not be able to partake in a "Highsec Poco" operations, since all member alliances won't declare war. This could create interesting "suspect timer" situations.

Also, competing for highsec resources is an Excellent addition to the game!!!


somebody gets why we literally have no ability to monopolize hisec pocos


Except there is no competition - there is only ONE customs office at each planet. THAT IS A MONOPOLY on resource access (an absolute monopoly on imports.)

If there were several custom offices at each planet - or one structure with several offices that players could select from, there then might be some healthy economic competition. ... Might be.


I suppose you could say there is no competition for moongoo either, since you can only put one POS at a moon? On a very, very local scale you are correct, but not in the larger scheme of things.

There are 1090 High sec systems and 817 Low sec represented in the "Empire Regions" chart on dotlan:
Regional Planet Distribution Charts

If we assume 50% of the empire planets are in highsec, then in any empire region you will have 100's of planets you can use in any region.
FYI, from the chart, there are 16285 planets in empire space, and we can safely estimate 8000 of those are in highsec. At 100m per poco, it would take 800 billion isk to claim them all, and it would be a logistical nightmare protect them.

The main question is, who will pay 500 million ISK to attack the GSF POCOs? Truth be told, many groups will gladly pay that for the large number of targets they get presented with. Add to that the desire to get in "fleet fights" with GSF in a "you can't hotdrop here" situation, and it is quite possible GSF will simply make themselves big targets by zealously claiming highsec POCOs.


None ofthe Above
#160 - 2013-10-01 18:58:30 UTC
Wild idea here

It would be interesting to see some other mechanism for taking over POCOs than just blowing them up.

While it's very EVE, it doesn't make much sense in high sec. Interbus takes control from CONCORD and then both entities just let people blow them up with impunity? Messes with my immersion and suspension of disbelief.

Hacking? That's been proposed many times before for abandoned installations. Would make sense if you could steal the POCO that way, but not leave it there as stolen property obviously functioning in High Sec.

In this case a free market solution could also be interesting, the other tenet of EVE beside destruction:

AUCTIONS

Add the ability to go to an Interbus CO and start an auction. Offer ISK, and the highest bidder's corp (no NPCs corps allowed I suppose) within the next say...week gets the unit. Could even advertize in space like the reinforced installations do.

Might be interesting to also allow POCOs to put themselves up for auction. That would make for a truly enriching mechanic in the long run. I wouldn't mind doing that for PI Installations either.

High Sec POCOs of course could still be destroyed under wardec.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.