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Dev Blog: Player Owned Customs offices in Hi-Sec

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Author
Peter Powers
Terrorists of Dimensions
#21 - 2013-10-01 15:26:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Peter Powers
CCP SoniClover wrote:

That wouldn't really work. A POCO owner could then have an alt corp be at war with the corp that owns the POCO and then transfer it to the alt corp when the POCO comes under threat.


EDIT: removed first idea since the second is so much better

I can see that this would be a way to exploit that behavior, however there must be a solution...

Just juggling a few thoughts arround,

Another idea would be to make pocos carry their wars with 'em
meaning you can transfer them to anyone else, but who ever takes them (needs to be something he agrees to) will INSTANTLY have the same wars like the owner of the POCO
Advantages:
  • Transfer is possible
  • Paying off War to wardeccer is possible (needs to think about what hes doing though, because he could get more wars through it)
  • Transfer to an own corp wont save it

  • Disadvantages
  • if implemented weirdly it might cause huge war cascades


  • thinking of it, i really like the second idea. what do you think?

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    Callic Veratar
    #22 - 2013-10-01 15:26:12 UTC
    Guess I might as well delete my PI now...
    Vincent Athena
    Photosynth
    #23 - 2013-10-01 15:27:38 UTC
    CCP SoniClover wrote:
    Peter Powers wrote:
    there is one thing that bothers me:

    if the poco can't be transfered during war, that kinda means i can't have
    a war-loser transfer his poco (or all his pocos) to me as a reparation payment.
    (otherwise i have to drop war first which kinda would allow him to sell 'em to someone else take 'em down or whatever)

    so if you really implement this limitation it would be nice if there was at least a "transfer to war oponnent" button or something like that.


    That wouldn't really work. A POCO owner could then have an alt corp be at war with the corp that owns the POCO and then transfer it to the alt corp when the POCO comes under threat.

    Yes they could. But that would not end the war vs the real agressor. If transferring a POCO was part of surrender terms, it would end the war.

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    Exploration Frontier inc
    Tactical-Retreat
    #24 - 2013-10-01 15:30:09 UTC
    What if, to perform a transfer to a war opponent, the poco has to be shot for a fraction of its HP at a precise time, a notification informing every opponent.

    This way the most important PvP force (involved in the war) present at this moment would be the one winning the POCO. Which would allow for both extraction and take over of POCOs during wars. It could also make sure that fights actually happens at POCOs, not at the undock of stations...

    The possibility to transfer to war opponent would be in the send surrender offer. So that you can offer money AND POCOs to end a war. If you choose to also give a POCO, the offender needs to win the match at the POCO (meaning being able to deal like 10% of its HP to it), otherwise the offer is cancelled.

    If there are multiple POCOs, there are successive timers, with something like 1 hour between each.

    To prevent the defender for spamming surrender to its alt corp hoping that it would work one time, there would be a collateral not returned if the surrender offer is invalid.

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    Panhead4411
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    The Possum Lodge
    #25 - 2013-10-01 15:30:21 UTC
    So does this mean that in order to take down any current HS POCO's, we'll be tanking our standing with Interbus?

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    Vincent Athena
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    #26 - 2013-10-01 15:31:00 UTC
    Lakshata Chawla wrote:
    So... You're keeping the NPC tax rates on the pocos, even if they're owned by a player?

    There doesn't seem to be any incentive to do PI in highsec then since you can probably just find a nice C1, have no tax, and actually just mine the resources yourself.

    If you want to remove NPC pocos, remove the NPC tax on pocos as well.

    There is alot to be said for this. Low sec planets are already better than high sec ones due to the better resources.

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    #27 - 2013-10-01 15:31:27 UTC
    Lakshata Chawla wrote:
    So... You're keeping the NPC tax rates on the pocos, even if they're owned by a player?

    There doesn't seem to be any incentive to do PI in highsec then since you can probably just find a nice C1, have no tax, and actually just mine the resources yourself.

    If you want to remove NPC pocos, remove the NPC tax on pocos as well.


    They're lowering the tax to 5% via skillbook. I shouldn't have to lay out all the ways doing PI in a c1 is different than doing it in hisec.

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    #28 - 2013-10-01 15:34:02 UTC
    Panhead4411 wrote:
    So does this mean that in order to take down any current HS POCO's, we'll be tanking our standing with Interbus?


    No standing/security or suspect flag hit will happen.

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    Luc Chastot
    #29 - 2013-10-01 15:35:26 UTC
    So people will just stop using Customs Offices in hs. Ok.

    Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

    Vincent Athena
    Photosynth
    #30 - 2013-10-01 15:38:12 UTC
    One interesting side effect of this is it supplies an income stream to high sec PvP corps. Consider:
    A high sec industrial corp can easily shoot down an interbus CO and put up their own. But then they open themselves up to war decs. Generally, nothing that industrialist players do is compatible with war. Better to have friends in a PvP corp give you a low tax rate on POCOs they own and defend.

    Result: Most all POCOs will be owned by PvP oriented corps or alliances.

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    Amarr Empire
    #31 - 2013-10-01 15:42:52 UTC
    New skill make no sense again.
    You should simply make so that everyone has half cost for NPCs.
    Or use existing trade skills here.
    Elemenohpee
    Output Industries
    #32 - 2013-10-01 15:43:23 UTC
    So all that's going to happen is a large nullsec entity hits a whole bunch of highsec customs offices and puts up their own pocos setting 60% tax, meaning I pay 70% tax overall.

    It then costs me 500 mill to dec them to hit their poco, which I wont bother doing as to make that back from hisec pi will take months.

    So basically your giving large null alliances free isk.

    GG

    Maybe if you hold sov you shouldn't be able to hold highsec pocos?
    Kel hound
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #33 - 2013-10-01 15:45:38 UTC
    Quote:
    The NPC tax will continue for hi sec POCOs (as we want low sec POCOs to still be competitive). The tax rate stays the same, at 10% for export and 5% for import. This is then in addition to whatever tax the player owner sets.


    Wow, I was... so pumped for this until I read that. The highsec factory planet is never coming back is it...
    Obil Que
    Star Explorers
    Solis Tenebris
    #34 - 2013-10-01 15:45:44 UTC
    Any changes to the deployment of POCOs in regards to anchoring time/upgrade time?

    I could see a fairly interesting development of people warping in logi + hauler or even using a blockade runner to "ninja drop" a POCO in place where another fleet had done the work of removing the Interbus. It certainly makes for contemplating some interesting tactics on how this would work but the very short timer for anchoring and upgrading a POCO makes it possible and once it is in place, the wardec mechanic makes it all but impossible to remove as you need to wait out the wardec timer.
    Ripard Teg
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #35 - 2013-10-01 15:50:17 UTC
    CCP Paradox wrote:
    Woo! Feedback time :)

    Ahem. *cough cough*

    Blink

    Seriously, the CSM is also looking forward to hearing player feedback on this one, particularly on the "null-sec take-over of high-sec POCOs" question that's already come up on page one. Can high-sec entities make it more trouble than it's worth to GSF or other null-sec entities to defend against reinforced POCOs over and over again? Or will the cost of the war-dec itself be the primary shield?

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    mynnna
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #36 - 2013-10-01 15:51:30 UTC
    Elemenohpee wrote:
    So all that's going to happen is a large nullsec entity hits a whole bunch of highsec customs offices and puts up their own pocos setting 60% tax, meaning I pay 70% tax overall.

    It then costs me 500 mill to dec them to hit their poco, which I wont bother doing as to make that back from hisec pi will take months.

    So basically your giving large null alliances free isk.

    GG

    Maybe if you hold sov you shouldn't be able to hold highsec pocos?


    Nah, why would we do that? Then no one uses them and we don't actually make any isk for them. Unless you're saying you're dumb enough to pay a 70% tax anyway.

    Here's what really happens.

    You train the skill right away, lowering the NPC portion of the tax to 5%.

    Then, we seize the POCOs right away, at least some of them, and set our own tax to something - probably, as it happens, 5%.

    Then RvB or someone contests our pocos and in the ongoing monthlong war, they're constantly being destroyed and reinforced, such that everyone who was using them before moves to different systems.

    Lol

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    Kinis Deren
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    D0GS OF WAR
    #37 - 2013-10-01 15:52:52 UTC
    Guess what the goon horde and hangers on will be doing this winter LOL.
    Aryth
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #38 - 2013-10-01 15:58:15 UTC
    As the person that developed the highsec poco plans...Your fears of Goons taking over all the highsec pocos are completely unfounded. It isn't required or desired.

    What you should really be worried about hasn't even been brought up yet.

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    #39 - 2013-10-01 15:58:31 UTC
    Ripard Teg wrote:
    CCP Paradox wrote:
    Woo! Feedback time :)

    Ahem. *cough cough*

    Blink

    Seriously, the CSM is also looking forward to hearing player feedback on this one, particularly on the "null-sec take-over of high-sec POCOs" question that's already come up on page one. Can high-sec entities make it more trouble than it's worth to GSF or other null-sec entities to defend against reinforced POCOs over and over again? Or will the cost of the war-dec itself be the primary shield?

    The cost is one shield. Also the reason many players live in high sec rather than moving elsewhere is they do not enjoy combat. Its unlikely they will initiate something they do not enjoy. Thats another shield.

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    #40 - 2013-10-01 15:59:24 UTC
    Ripard Teg wrote:
    CCP Paradox wrote:
    Woo! Feedback time :)

    Ahem. *cough cough*

    Blink

    Seriously, the CSM is also looking forward to hearing player feedback on this one, particularly on the "null-sec take-over of high-sec POCOs" question that's already come up on page one. Can high-sec entities make it more trouble than it's worth to GSF or other null-sec entities to defend against reinforced POCOs over and over again? Or will the cost of the war-dec itself be the primary shield?


    This was also the issue in my own mind.

    Whereas the cargo capacity of the command center is only 500 m3, this makes the alternative "rocket launch" delivery system impractical for any significant PI operation. Thus, any high-sec PI of any real significance must still be done using the POCOs. Any large power block can squeeze this process, and most carebears will react not with wardecs but by stopping PI and going to do something else.

    Other power blocks could contest this, but I doubt many high-sec based alliances will. I foresee this bringing wars between nullsec organizations into high-sec more often (which is fine if that's the intention), but not necessary more war BY high-sec entities.

    And of course, with nullsec PI per planet much higher than in high-sec, nullsec power blocks can shut-down high-sec PI "just for LOLs" with minimal impact on their fuel production (unless high-sec PI has a bigger share of the market than I think it does).