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Interdiction Nullfied Interceptors are not acceptable!!!

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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#61 - 2013-09-27 22:09:36 UTC
This idea is great ! Stop complaining.

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Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#62 - 2013-09-27 22:09:42 UTC
Tippia wrote:
How exactly does this "move the game forward"? By introducing new tactics and proper operational manoeuvring and requiring something more clever than just dumping bubbles everywhere, thereby smartening up the game considerably for everyone involved.

Since tactics to catch these interceptors have already been developed (or more accurately have been there all along), not even the potential problem of making them difficult to kill exists. All around an excellent change of mechanics.



Tippia i have read many of your posts and I almost universally appreciate your opinions as well thought out even though i disagree with you almost 100% of the time.

What i really wanted to say though is great Avatar, a slight smug smile that makes me want to punch your avatar in the face.

I mean that in a good way ( not being sarcastic ).

Cheers!

Maldiro

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#63 - 2013-09-27 22:11:50 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
How does bubble immunity help the interceptor?
--- Hint: The interceptor class generally chases ships. If it warps to a gate chasing another ship, but ignores bubbles, that means it doesn't land near it's desired target, inhibiting its ability as chaser tackle.
…but the target is tackled, as intended, so it works out very nicely.


Not really... Inty chasing my Vexor. I warp to a celestial to run away, and land in a bubble 100 km's or more off the celestial. The inty lands at zero on the celestial, in a very different place. Yes, I'm in a bubble, but can easily get out of it before the inty can tackle me.

Tippia wrote:
Quote:
How exactly does this "move the game forward"?
By introducing new tactics and proper operational manoeuvring and requiring something more clever than just dumping bubbles everywhere, thereby smartening up the game considerably for everyone involved.

Since tactics to catch these interceptors have already been developed (or more accurately have been there all along), not even the potential problem of making them difficult to kill exists. All around an excellent change of mechanics.


Are you serious? This implementation isn't to create new tactics or "proper operational movement". It is simply a change to make nullsec travel safer. I figured you'd be one of the few to rally against making EvE safer and easier!

PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#64 - 2013-09-27 22:15:53 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


Are you serious? This implementation isn't to create new tactics or "proper operational movement". It is simply a change to make nullsec travel safer. I figured you'd be one of the few to rally against making EvE safer and easier!


It doesn't make it safer though. Cloaky nullified T3's exist that are far safer for travel purposes. Carriers, Blops+Blockade Runners, and Jump Freighters are even safer still as those ships, if only considering moving from point A to point B for logistical purposes need never come on grid with another hostile. Ever.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#65 - 2013-09-27 22:21:00 UTC
Tikitina wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

How does bubble immunity help the interceptor?
--- Hint: The interceptor class generally chases ships. If it warps to a gate chasing another ship, but ignores bubbles, that means it doesn't land near it's desired target, inhibiting its ability as chaser tackle.


For one, It allows inties to avoid the delaying tactics of Dictors dropping bubbles to help their group disengage a pursuing group as one example


And it allows interceptors to ignore bubble-wrapped gates that carebears use to make their system safe.
I will also really enjoy hornet gangs of interceptors that can't be held down by bubblers.

However, I still think this mechanic is designed to make nullsec travel safer, which is something I oppose.

Tikitina wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

How exactly does this "move the game forward"?
--- Hint: If your answer can be summed up as, it enables safer movement throughout nullsec for interceptors, why are you using an interceptor to begin with when a covops performs that role?


It creates the possibility of new gameplay by breaking some existing, what many consider stagnate, gameplay

Plus, the fact that intie pilots will have to account for their new found ability that can prevent them from catching someone who is caught by a bubble while they are not means that this new ability would be a dual edged sword, which is inline with what Eve is about.


I think you are stretching here.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#66 - 2013-09-27 22:26:44 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


Are you serious? This implementation isn't to create new tactics or "proper operational movement". It is simply a change to make nullsec travel safer. I figured you'd be one of the few to rally against making EvE safer and easier!


It doesn't make it safer though. Cloaky nullified T3's exist that are far safer for travel purposes. Carriers, Blops+Blockade Runners, and Jump Freighters are even safer still as those ships, if only considering moving from point A to point B for logistical purposes need never come on grid with another hostile. Ever.


I'll grant you that cloaky nullified t3's are the epidomy of "safe travel", right next to jump logistics. However, the former is expensive, not just in isk price, but in ship utility cost too. The later requires teamwork at the minimum, infrastructure at the maximum, and still has some serious drawbacks.

The drawback of nullified inties is nothing like that of nullified t3's. Apples and Oranges.

Really, as blasphemous as this is, you could do an MWD-Cloak inty and be just as safe as a nullified t3, and safer than a covops. lol at the fit, but I just don't see a good reason to implement nullified ceptors!
Wandering Deathstriker
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2013-09-27 22:26:49 UTC
My biggest problem is that my fleet of miner's will now get instantly caught in a mining belt before they can warp out to a pos... and there's nothing i can really do about it.

edit: without having multiple scout alts on top of my hauler and booster.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#68 - 2013-09-27 22:37:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Not really... Inty chasing my Vexor. I warp to a celestial to run away, and land in a bubble 100 km's or more off the celestial. The inty lands at zero on the celestial, in a very different place. Yes, I'm in a bubble, but can easily get out of it before the inty can tackle me.
…even when you consider the fact that he inty has been burning towards the bubble before you even got there? You're still tackled and you've at best bought yourself a couple of seconds. Oh, and if you're in a Vexor, why are you running away from a frigate?

Quote:
Are you serious? This implementation isn't to create new tactics or "proper operational movement".
Yes it is. While you're stuck going in and out of and around bubbles, the intys just fly straight through to set up a catch in a different position. You have to develop new delaying tactics as well as new capturing tactics, and the traps you've set up to keep your space safe are no longer as effective (which makes nullsec travel more dangerous in and of itself — even more so when it will now be full of encounters with tacklers).

Wandering Deathstriker wrote:
My biggest problem is that my fleet of miner's will now get instantly caught in a mining belt before they can warp out to a pos... and there's nothing i can really do about it.
Keep an eye on all your intel tools, maybe? They may be fast, but they're not going to teleport into your belts without you knowing it…
Billy Colorado
Evasion Gaming
#69 - 2013-09-27 22:46:51 UTC
When I chase to a bubble, I want to land in that bubble with the thing I'm chasing... Didn't see this implication at first.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#70 - 2013-09-27 23:09:24 UTC
"But, but... travel through 0.0 will become too safe!"

Because it wasn't already.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
XavierVE
No Corporation for Old Spacemen
#71 - 2013-09-27 23:14:35 UTC
OP, nice try, but you can't get through the heads of the blob. They're too focused on gate-camping, which this doesn't impact at all. Interceptors have always been immune to gate camps via the absolute ease of gate-crashing.

Often run 6-12 man roams through hostile sov null over the last four years. You run into giant home defense blobs all the time. Currently, you can run away from those blobs using general fleet tactics that have been around forever. Dropping bubbles behind you to slow down your pursuers, bubbling on the jump in to slow down giant blobs.

Now any home defense blob worth it's salt is going to have 3-4 interceptors. Good luck taking a small gang through null, no more defensive bubbles, no more mad dashes away from the giant blob. Interceptors will go through your defensive bubbles without an issue, tackling your ships or forcing you to kill the inty... which causes aggression. Even if you make it to a safe, the gang chasing you then gets ahead of you and you're forced into loggoffski.

This is the single dumbest change they've ever brought into the game in regards to small gang FC's and a tremendous buff to home defense blobs.

The stated reason for this change was to make it so anchoring a giant spam of bubbles around gates doesn't make you 100% safe to PvE in null. So, rather than do the simple approach of making it so you can't ANCHOR a bubble within 40km of a gate, they go and **** up small gang dynamics by making interceptors nullified to bubbles.

Stupid, stupid change. And unfortunately for me, the absolute final straw for this game.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#72 - 2013-09-27 23:24:15 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


Are you serious? This implementation isn't to create new tactics or "proper operational movement". It is simply a change to make nullsec travel safer. I figured you'd be one of the few to rally against making EvE safer and easier!


It doesn't make it safer though. Cloaky nullified T3's exist that are far safer for travel purposes. Carriers, Blops+Blockade Runners, and Jump Freighters are even safer still as those ships, if only considering moving from point A to point B for logistical purposes need never come on grid with another hostile. Ever.


I'll grant you that cloaky nullified t3's are the epidomy of "safe travel", right next to jump logistics. However, the former is expensive, not just in isk price, but in ship utility cost too. The later requires teamwork at the minimum, infrastructure at the maximum, and still has some serious drawbacks.

The drawback of nullified inties is nothing like that of nullified t3's. Apples and Oranges.

Really, as blasphemous as this is, you could do an MWD-Cloak inty and be just as safe as a nullified t3, and safer than a covops. lol at the fit, but I just don't see a good reason to implement nullified ceptors!


Yes, a noobship cyno alt is the epitome of teamwork. Roll Honestly, aside from cost, there's nothing your MWD-Cloaky inty does better than a cloaky nullified T3. And at least cloaky nullified t3's can sorta do something else for the money. A cloaked inty won't be able to tackle for ****.
XavierVE wrote:
And unfortunately for me, the absolute final straw for this game.

What will happen to your stuff, if you don't mind my asking?
i-AA
Cream Pie Carpet Munchers
#73 - 2013-09-27 23:24:27 UTC
Stfu .. Are you scared now *****???

Gtfo pussy gate camping like a ****** then..

**** off and gtfo
Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#74 - 2013-09-27 23:25:50 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
CCP Fozzie and CCP Rise then went on to talk about features coming out with Rubicon, EvE's winter expansion:

While many of the ideas were pretty nifty, this little gem came out:

Interceptor changes: bubble immunity planned. Interdiction nullified, basically. Dropping average HP a little bit, very small cargo bays.

I'm sorry, but Interdiction Nullified ships are generally a BAD thing (i.e. too safe). Furthermore, giving Nullified to fast aligning interceptors is over-the-line, unless the Nullifier mechanics are revised.

Reason 1:
  • Interceptors are generally sent ahead of fleet to "catch" targets. This includes purposely warping them into bubbles where enemy "traps are", with the intention of tackling targets before they can run. This has mixed results depending on the inty pilot skills, but by making inties nullified, you prevent using this tactic!!!

    • Reason 2:
  • This is a dumbing down of the game. It allows inty pilots that stupidly warp gate-to-gate when hostiles are in system, rather than using bookmarks and celestials, to move about more safely. Nullsec travel already has covert ops ships, interdiction nullified ships, and MJD-cloak BSs to move around nullsec very safely. Interceptors themselves are currently very adept at navigating unhindered through nullsec, so why would we want to make them even safer?

    • Reason 3:
  • The number one method to gank inties is to surprise the gate-to-gate traveler with a drag bubble. This is a great way to catch scouts for a gang, which is very accessible even to very young solo frigate pilots.

    • At the end of the day, serious gate campers will still use sensor boosted tacklers to catch inties before they warp, so this really won't really change your big gate camps. Instead, you are
  • encouraging carebears to bubble wrap their systems gates, as a cheap inty will get them through the gate if they desire.
  • making travel safer, especially for the "I don't know how to avoid drag bubbles" crowd.
  • helping inties infringe on the covops role, by making it easier for inties to navigate hostile groups.

    • Potential change to the Interdiciton Nullifier System that could balance out interdiction nullified inties:
  • A long time ago, Interdiction Nullified subsystems were "accidentallied" by CCP, such that a nullified cruiser could warp out of a bubble, but if warped to a celestial with a bubble on it, they'd still be affected by the bubbles pull.

    • P.S. Since most people seem to misunderstand my point: This isn't about "wah my bubble camps can be bypassed". This is about WHY ARE WE MAKING NULLSEC TRAVEL SAFER AND EASIER. We already have covops and nullified t3's for the risk adverse carebears. Why add inties to that list?


    this will bring much more players to nullsec, and thats a good thing... nullsec is empty, thats why more poeple need to go there, the only one risk averse is you like it seems, you are scared to have more people out there

    Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
    Mr Epeen
    It's All About Me
    #75 - 2013-09-27 23:33:25 UTC
    I didn't read the thread so not sure if this has been mentioned.

    CCP can start over-complicating mechanics like they have in the past and in the end have to go back and fix it all over. Or they can use the simple solution.

    The simple solution is to get rid of bubbles.

    Mr Epeen Cool
    SpoonRECKLESS
    Beach Boys
    The Minions.
    #76 - 2013-09-27 23:37:57 UTC
    As someone said (I forgot who) adapt or die, Or become a forum whiner for life.

    Blue
    Gizznitt Malikite
    Agony Unleashed
    Agony Empire
    #77 - 2013-09-27 23:40:08 UTC
    Harry Forever wrote:

    this will bring much more players to nullsec, and thats a good thing... nullsec is empty, thats why more poeple need to go there, the only one risk averse is you like it seems, you are scared to have more people out there


    Your assumptions about me are blatantly wrong, as I am not some risk adverse, bubble humping wannabe PvP'er.

    Nullsec is empty, and I would LOVE to see more players out and about in the baron wastelands that exist around the (mythical) blue donut. If you think making interceptors able to travel about unmolested is going to get more people into nullsec, you come across as very oblivious to the state of things.

    The changes to scanning, hacking, and archaeology sites brought a lot of players to nuulsec. The new exploration ships might get more solo explorers out there. The new deployable structures will have quite a bit of utility for guerrilla fighters too. But if you really want to "populate" nullsec, we need to address Sov mechanics. Ideally with a use it or easily lose it mentality, which is much easier said than implemented.
    Gizznitt Malikite
    Agony Unleashed
    Agony Empire
    #78 - 2013-09-27 23:41:35 UTC
    Mr Epeen wrote:
    I didn't read the thread so not sure if this has been mentioned.

    CCP can start over-complicating mechanics like they have in the past and in the end have to go back and fix it all over. Or they can use the simple solution.

    The simple solution is to get rid of bubbles.

    Mr Epeen Cool


    Oh please god NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Bubbles are one of best tactical tools in the game, and removing them is asinine!
    Athelas Loraiel
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #79 - 2013-09-27 23:56:43 UTC
    good idea to have intys resistant to bubbly, maybe add some warp pause only.

    after all, they can move out of it rather fast so it wont change much.

    as to the drag bubbles, I'd get rid of them too, we need more brawling, less "mechanics usage"
    Kaarous Aldurald
    Black Hydra Consortium.
    #80 - 2013-09-28 02:20:31 UTC
    You're all being silly. Of all the crazy things being thrown out about Rubicon, this is really the least worrisome.

    Most of the interceptors were more than fast enough to blow past a gatecamp in the first place, so it doesn't make anything much safer than it already was. It does make chasing a little easier, though. All in all, a good change, at least as long as we make sure they can't fit Cynos anymore, because that would suck.

    "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

    One of ours, ten of theirs.

    Best Meltdown Ever.