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New dev blog: Hybrid weapon and Tech II ammo balancing

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Kiev Duran
Holey Amarrian Inquisition
Grand Inquisitors Federation
#741 - 2011-11-02 19:54:49 UTC
Phoenix Torp wrote:
Kiev Duran wrote:
While most people see these changes as a Gallente boost, let's not forget that Caldari use hybrids and could use a little love too.

The role that CCP seems to have envisioned for Caldari ships does not exist.

The Caldari, based on most ship bonuses, are put into the "medium damage from extreme range" role. A role that no longer truly exists on any level of play. This does not just affect railguns, but missiles also. However, I'll focus on hybrids as they are the focus of of this thread and devblog.

Extreme ranges are usually considered 150 - 250 km out, and the Caldari have several ships that can, in theory, reach out and touch someone from those ranges. The real question is why would you want to do this. Considering the simple facts that not everyone flys or enjoys flying Caldari means that several people in any sufficiently large fleet will not be able to shoot from more than about 100 - 120 km. The fleet's optimal range is only as long as the member with the shortest optimal range. This means that any Caldari pilots will be forced to fit for shooting at literally half of their optimals. This means that Caldari could potentially choose a new ammo so that he'd do more damage, but in many cases this can actually lead to a damage reduction or an insignificant increase in DPS (if not using faction ammo) as spike does do significant damage for it's range bonus. Furthermore, at any ranges exceeding the warp range, it is no trouble at all for a covert ops to place himself where the enemy fleet can simply warp to their optimals. With the changes to scanning, this can take any organised fleet as few as about 12 to 13 seconds.

In smaller scale and solo stuff long range just doesn't work because of the range of warp disruptors and scramblers.

The extreme range role simply doesn't (and perhaps cannot) exist


I have never understood how Caldari are rail boats. They have Optimal Range bonus, they should be Blasters platforms (BlasterRokh ;)


Basically Caldari boats suffer too much from low speed and horrible agility to get close enough and stay close enough to use blasters in most situations. Even in small gang stuff where Caldari blaster boats can work, you run into the problem of being thrashed by bigger ships due to the effect shield mods and the MWD has on your signature radius. Though this is most likely intended and shouldn't be changed without first re-evaluating the entire signature resolution/radius and explosion radius/velocity system of damage reductions (something that, in my opinion, doesn't need to happen).
Sam Bowein
Sense Amid Madness
#742 - 2011-11-02 20:02:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Sam Bowein
CCP Tallest wrote:
"Eagle is terrible, Deimos is terrible, Rokh is terrible, Proteus is terrible... etc."
Keep posting specific examples. We can't fix everything at once, but hearing the problems from you helps us prioritize what needs to be looked at


That's easy to do. Just download a software called EFT and create the following setups:
- a Rokh (tier 3 battleship) with 8x425mm Railguns II, and load Javelin ammo (T2 short range)
- an Apocalypse (tier 2 battleship) with 8xMega Pulse II, and load Scorch ammo (T2 long range)

And then compare:
- The Apoc does slightly more DPS
- The Apoc has more than twice the range in optimal (62km vs 27km)
- The Apoc is cap stable, the Rokh will cap out in 7min
- The Apoc has 77% powercore usage, the Rokh 101%
- The Apoc has 3x times more tracking than the Rokh (and remember, Javelin is short range, Scorch long range...)

Shoud I continue or did you get it ???? Now please, fix this. And don't forget to compensate for all the years hybrids have been ****** (that means MAKE HYBRID THE NEW FOTM, NOT JUST SOME HALF ASS BOOST)
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#743 - 2011-11-02 20:06:03 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
Hello all. Sorry for not replying more. I've been a tad busy. We're trying to get these changes to SISI so we can start playing around with them. Once this is on SISI, please post more feedback in the test server feedback forums.

Here are some responses to your concerns.

"Hail boost is too much"
Possibly... I might change it to a 25% falloff penalty instead of removing it completely.

"Tech II ammo needs to be rethought"
I agree that we need to take a better look at this. What I did was just reacting to some issues that I found to be very obvious when comparing them to tech 1 ammo.

"Eagle is terrible, Deimos is terrible, Rokh is terrible, Proteus is terrible... etc."
Keep posting specific examples. We can't fix everything at once, but hearing the problems from you helps us prioritize what needs to be looked at.

"Reduce hybrid ammo size"
That's a pretty good idea. I'll look into it.

"Armor rigs should not reduce speed"
Possibly... I definitely considered it and haven't completely dismissed it.

"This isn't enough, we need bigger boosts to damage"
That is entirely possible but I believe this is a good starting point.


Thank you for the feedback, CCP Tallest. Looking forward to an updated list of changes,

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 
Kiev Duran
Holey Amarrian Inquisition
Grand Inquisitors Federation
#744 - 2011-11-02 20:17:28 UTC
Sam Bowein wrote:

Shoud I continue or did you get it ???? Now please, fix this. And don't forget to compensate for all the years hybrids have been ****** (that means MAKE HYBRID THE NEW FOTM, NOT JUST SOME HALF ASS BOOST)


No. As much as I want to be pre-trained for the new "best" setup, this does not need to (and should not) happen. Making hybrids the new fotm will only get them directly nerfed or nerfed by neglect in future patches. Balancing everything in regards to everything else asap should be the desired outcome, as no one race should ever be required to be viable in any aspect in the game. Lasers and projectiles have had their fun in the sun and that's fine; hopefully soon, all weapon types will be equally viable for all forms of combat, whether they be lasers, projectiles, hybrids, or even missiles.
m3talc0re X
The Motley Crew of Disorder
The Gorram Shiney Alliance
#745 - 2011-11-02 21:09:58 UTC
Okay, this is all well and good. But when the hell are we going to get the other turrets reloading/changing ammo as quickly as lasers or at least faster than they are now. 10s is stupid...
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#746 - 2011-11-02 21:21:15 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
thoth rothschild wrote:
The best deimos fix is already on tranquility. it is called adrestia. perfect blaster boat, perfect hybrid fix

now compare adrestia with deimos and it will be clear why it is perfect.

Either that or the proteus. 900dps with 180k EHP, or 400dps with 400k ehp. Basically those two ships are the only blaster ships ive flown that work.


Too bad a Proteus costs about 1B and a Hurricane about 25M (but thats just a side note) :P
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#747 - 2011-11-02 21:26:28 UTC
Lekgoa wrote:

Train Reading Comprehension to 4 and reread my post. The point was that with no falloff penalty Hail hits farther than Null, which is just plain silly.

As for my numbers, they use 4 guns + 1 damage mod + 2 damage rigs on both ships. Both are cold dps.


The wolf is a weird boat with two direct damage bonuses as well as a falloff bonus. The enyo SHOULD have two damage bonuses as well to compete, but only has one. I started a thread to nerf Minmatar so don't read this the wrong way but this isn't the best ship to do an example off of.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#748 - 2011-11-02 22:47:44 UTC
Hamox wrote:
Too bad a Proteus costs about 1B and a Hurricane about 25M (but thats just a side note) :P


Proteus fitted is around 1B +/- yes but Canes base T2 fitted at 25M ??? Shocked


Let me know where I'll buy a few dozens Lol
Ugleb
Jotunn Risi
#749 - 2011-11-02 23:01:46 UTC
What if some of the blaster boats were given a bonus to warp scram range? Not on a level with the dedicated recons/EAF's but something to let them shut down the targets mwd more easily so that they can catch up to it.

This thought probably involves changing the bonuses on alot of ships mind you. ;)

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Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#750 - 2011-11-02 23:01:52 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Hamox wrote:
Too bad a Proteus costs about 1B and a Hurricane about 25M (but thats just a side note) :P


Proteus fitted is around 1B +/- yes but Canes base T2 fitted at 25M ??? Shocked


Let me know where I'll buy a few dozens Lol


OK I'm sorry, I overdrawed it a little.
Naked Proteus is only about 600M-700M and Cane with T2 fitting is more than 25M (naked cane is around 25M).

Was a stupid answer from my side anyways becouse the question was how to improve die-most, so we should compare die-most with proteus (nevertheless I think the Proteus also needs some rethinking at some aspects) ;)
Evelgrivion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#751 - 2011-11-02 23:22:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Evelgrivion
CCP Tallest wrote:
"Armor rigs should not reduce speed"
Possibly... I definitely considered it and haven't completely dismissed it.


My personal outlook is that this is a horrible idea; armor buffering has been a detrimental mechanic to Eve Online for a long time now by providing minimal penalties to the ship while dramatically increasing their staying power on the battlefield. If anything, there are too few penalties as things stand to adding trimarks and armor plates to ships.

I would not change the speed modification aspect of trimark rigs, but I would definitely consider adding a stacking nerf to armor plates and rigs; you get far too much bang for your buck with a set of rigs, 1600mm plates, and pushing it way over the edge, slave pirate implants.

The same sort of health percentile stacking penalties should be applied to shield extending modules and rigs as well.
Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#752 - 2011-11-02 23:22:35 UTC
Kiev Duran wrote:
While most people see these changes as a Gallente boost, let's not forget that Caldari use hybrids and could use a little love too.

*snip*


Yeah, don't forget about us! I understand that Gallente are the primary users of Hybrid guns, but just a little under half of the subcap ship of the Caldari line are (supposed to be) hybrid gun platforms...

While I like in concept the extreme range niche the Caldari have, the truth is it doesn't have place in EVE. There are many reasons for that... On grid scanning and heterogeneous fleet compositions are the most important imho... On grid scanning may be fixed, fleet composition is hard to overcome since it depends on trained skills as well...

Also, beside battleships, trying to outrange your enemy by setup alone is useless... If you're a frigate then a cruiser will outrange you (even if it's not a caldari cruiser), if you're a cruiser a BS will outrange you... Since sniper ships normally aren't nimble enough to dictate range, this leaves the "Sniper" niche to only battleships (Yeah I know, there are sniper hac gangs... Guess what is the most common counter to a sniper hac gang? A sniper battleship gang). Pidgeon-holing the caldari into extreme range sniping, while suffering heavily on the damage side seems quite daft.

The only way I can see an extreme range sniper setup working is if downgrading ammo trading range for damage is feasible. Like noted before, right now Spike deals much more damage than most T1 (and often faction) ammo, even with quite short ranges... Perhaps a bigger damage modifier on the lower ranged ammo could help caldari getting on par with the other snipers, while still retaining the "extreme range" philosophy...

Otherwise a completely different philosophy must be implemented.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#753 - 2011-11-02 23:32:46 UTC
I've just EFTed up two ships fit for the blaster role of getting up close and applying a cubic litre of DPS.

Ship A has 720 DPS, 1471 m/s, 134 m/s/s average acceleration under MWD and 38k EHP.
Ship B has 727 DPS, 2484 m/s, 227 m/s/s average acceleration under MWD and 36k EHP.

These two ships have very similar DPS. But one is over 1 km/s faster and much more agile, at the cost of 2k EHP. Given that the blaster role involves getting up close quickly and applying DPS, what are these two ships and which fulfils the blaster role better?
Evelgrivion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#754 - 2011-11-02 23:37:14 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
I've just EFTed up two ships fit for the blaster role of getting up close and applying a cubic litre of DPS.

Ship A has 720 DPS, 1471 m/s, 134 m/s/s average acceleration under MWD and 38k EHP.
Ship B has 727 DPS, 2484 m/s, 227 m/s/s average acceleration under MWD and 36k EHP.

These two ships have very similar DPS. But one is over 1 km/s faster and much more agile, at the cost of 2k EHP. Given that the blaster role involves getting up close quickly and applying DPS, what are these two ships and which fulfils the blaster role better?


Ship B is better at the job; this is a non-question. But, which ship is which?
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#755 - 2011-11-02 23:43:26 UTC
Evelgrivion wrote:
I would not change the speed modification aspect of trimark rigs, but I would definitely consider adding a stacking nerf to armor plates and rigs; you get far too much bang for your buck with a set of rigs, 1600mm plates, and pushing it way over the edge, slave pirate implants.



Yeah because every armor pilot undocks every day with his slave set to blow/get blown in cheap throw away stuff.

It's not because SC/Titan pilots HAVE to use those (see the diff of price tag for the hulls?) that each and every amarr/gallente pilot uses them, if you know a lot of them send them in to low/null sec pee vee pee with their uber sets, I'll be glad to free them of that pain.

And no, speed trade off is not adapted to blaster ships precisely, has for armor hit points you should know by now armor doesn't self regenerates.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#756 - 2011-11-02 23:43:26 UTC
A few primers for ship balancing...

Maybe the active tanking bonus on Gallente t1 hulls (and commandships) needs to be re thought? (as every one of those ships is a problem one)

Compare an active tanking Hyperion as best as you can with an active tanking Abaddon even with the PG reduction.

Maybe the caldari optimal range bonus needs to be rethought?

Myrmidon needs less turrets and more drones, so it behaves less like a brutix or a vexor.

Maybe the Eos should become the field commandship? (with more drones)

Maybe ALL fleet commandships should get HP bonuses? (together with on grid boosting only, this would be a excellent commandship buff)

Work out what the differences between effective tracking of pulses or autocannons at optimal, optimal+fall off is compared with blasters, then tell me whether a 20% tracking bonus was enough.



Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#757 - 2011-11-02 23:44:53 UTC
Evelgrivion wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
I've just EFTed up two ships fit for the blaster role of getting up close and applying a cubic litre of DPS.

Ship A has 720 DPS, 1471 m/s, 134 m/s/s average acceleration under MWD and 38k EHP.
Ship B has 727 DPS, 2484 m/s, 227 m/s/s average acceleration under MWD and 36k EHP.

These two ships have very similar DPS. But one is over 1 km/s faster and much more agile, at the cost of 2k EHP. Given that the blaster role involves getting up close quickly and applying DPS, what are these two ships and which fulfils the blaster role better?


Ship B is better at the job; this is a non-question. But, which ship is which?


Obvious is too obvious, ship B is Winmatar.
Lekgoa
Free State Project
#758 - 2011-11-02 23:53:46 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:

The wolf is a weird boat with two direct damage bonuses as well as a falloff bonus. The enyo SHOULD have two damage bonuses as well to compete, but only has one. I started a thread to nerf Minmatar so don't read this the wrong way but this isn't the best ship to do an example off of.


That's fair. Even without bonuses though, autos with RF EMP (or Hail w/o falloff penalty) outrange similarly-sized blasters with Null. I don't want blasters to be able to hit out to Barrage range, but their long-range ammo should at least outrange autos' short-range ammo.
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#759 - 2011-11-02 23:57:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Mekhana
@Tanya Powers

Quite so.

Meanwhile, on this other ring we got ships with superior EHP, comparable DPS and can switch instantly between close range ammo and long range ammo. Their long range ammo lets them hit up to 50km away.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#760 - 2011-11-03 00:03:53 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Evelgrivion wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
I've just EFTed up two ships fit for the blaster role of getting up close and applying a cubic litre of DPS.

Ship A has 720 DPS, 1471 m/s, 134 m/s/s average acceleration under MWD and 38k EHP.
Ship B has 727 DPS, 2484 m/s, 227 m/s/s average acceleration under MWD and 36k EHP.

These two ships have very similar DPS. But one is over 1 km/s faster and much more agile, at the cost of 2k EHP. Given that the blaster role involves getting up close quickly and applying DPS, what are these two ships and which fulfils the blaster role better?


Ship B is better at the job; this is a non-question. But, which ship is which?


Obvious is too obvious, ship B is Winmatar.


Yeah, Ship A is the Deimos, Ship B is a ******** Vagabond lolfit, with 425s and quad gyros, fit up for the blaster "role". You can quibble over certain aspects of the fits but the basics are there.

Of course, nobody uses a Vaga like this, but that's because going into scramble range is so dangerous, and the Vaga has the speed and range to not need to do this. But it kinda demonstrates that even if you massively nerfed the Vaga, restricting its falloff such that it couldn't apply DPS from outside scramble range (i.e., turned it into a blasterboat), it'd would still be arguably better than the Deimos. This illustrates the scale of the AC-blaster balance problem.