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New dev blog: Hybrid weapon and Tech II ammo balancing

First post First post
Author
CCP Tallest
C C P
C C P Alliance
#701 - 2011-11-02 16:43:47 UTC
Hello all. Sorry for not replying more. I've been a tad busy. We're trying to get these changes to SISI so we can start playing around with them. Once this is on SISI, please post more feedback in the test server feedback forums.

Here are some responses to your concerns.

"Hail boost is too much"
Possibly... I might change it to a 25% falloff penalty instead of removing it completely.

"Tech II ammo needs to be rethought"
I agree that we need to take a better look at this. What I did was just reacting to some issues that I found to be very obvious when comparing them to tech 1 ammo.

"Eagle is terrible, Deimos is terrible, Rokh is terrible, Proteus is terrible... etc."
Keep posting specific examples. We can't fix everything at once, but hearing the problems from you helps us prioritize what needs to be looked at.

"Reduce hybrid ammo size"
That's a pretty good idea. I'll look into it.

"Armor rigs should not reduce speed"
Possibly... I definitely considered it and haven't completely dismissed it.

"This isn't enough, we need bigger boosts to damage"
That is entirely possible but I believe this is a good starting point.

[b]★ EVE Game Designer ★ ♥ Team Super Friends ♥[/b]

Digital Gaidin
Manetheren Rising
#702 - 2011-11-02 16:45:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Digital Gaidin
CCP Tallest wrote:
Hello all. Sorry for not replying more. I've been a tad busy. We're trying to get these changes to SISI so we can start playing around with them. Once this is on SISI, please post more feedback in the test server feedback forums.

Here are some responses to your concerns.

"Hail boost is too much"
Possibly... I might change it to a 25% falloff penalty instead of removing it completely.

"Tech II ammo needs to be rethought"
I agree that we need to take a better look at this. What I did was just reacting to some issues that I found to be very obvious when comparing them to tech 1 ammo.

"Eagle is terrible, Deimos is terrible, Rokh is terrible, Proteus is terrible... etc."
Keep posting specific examples. We can't fix everything at once, but hearing the problems from you helps us prioritize what needs to be looked at.

"Reduce hybrid ammo size"
That's a pretty good idea. I'll look into it.

"Armor rigs should not reduce speed"
Possibly... I definitely considered it and haven't completely dismissed it.

"This isn't enough, we need bigger boosts to damage"
That is entirely possible but I believe this is a good starting point.

First, thanks for a response and reading our thoughts!!! Big smile

To respond directly to your response though...

Tech 2 changes are nice (across the board), even if they will shake up the LP Store markets some as a few faction ammo types will become second rate. Those aren't really a hybrid fix though, as has already been pointed out, as much as a general "T2 Ammo kinda sucks" fix for many of the non-used ammo types.

Regarding specific ship setups and how they can be fixed, these are directly related to the core philosophy behind the use of blasters, and this is exactly what people are complaining about. Blasters need a reason to be used, as their lack of weapon damage types combined with range, capacitor usage, and targeted hulls (slow, fat, armor tanked, and lacking the slots to make for a manageable tank/buffer while increasing damage via magstabs to the levels necessary) just do not make a compelling reason to use them over something else. You can fix armor rigs, nudge gallente ships faster, etc... but there needs to be a compelling reason to use a weapon system for it to actually be used.,,, else you end up nudging and nudging until the system just becomes overpowered and invalidates other weapon systems.

The nuclear option COMBINED with enough tracking to fight at 500m with traversal seems like the one niche where Blasters can excel. Crank up the damage to where Gallente ships can really excel in ONE area better than all others, and a real use will exist (even if it isn't what many are looking for). Today I have real reasons to fly Amarr, Minmatar, and Caldari hulls in a variety of combat situations. For those of us who love Gallente, all we ask is that Gallente get given a real reason to fly their hulls (beyond running missions in drone boats). Preferably, whatever it is that is provided, some of us would ask that it doesn't invalidate the existing paradigms that are in place for other races' ships and their corresponding weapon systems.
Creat Posudol
German Oldies
#703 - 2011-11-02 16:50:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Creat Posudol
Sizeof Void wrote:
Hungry Eyes wrote:

the issue at hand is this:

when a gallente ship jumps and catches a minnie ship, it still does about the same dps. the only difference - the minnie ship has started applying 100% of its dps and has been hitting you perfectly during your approach.

What approach? You don't jump a Gallente blasterboat outside of blaster range and try to approach a Minmatar ship. It isn't going to happen because the Minmatar ship is usually fast enough to keep its distance.

You jump the blaster boat within blaster range, get it? There is no approach, and thus no issue in your hand.


You keep repeating this argument. Are you aware that it also means that every Gallente blaster ship will always (!!!) lose if it is surprised or simply not the aggressor? This does happen, you know? What kind of a 'balance' is it, if you are pretty much guaranteed to lose unless you are the aggressor? Sure, aggressing should give you an advantage, but it can't be the main deciding factor in pretty much all battles including a certain race...

Nyla Skin wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:
is void t2 ammo also getting fixed so it would be worth using?

edit, you seamed to have missed it from this line in the blog
Quote:
Javelin, Gleam and Quake (all sizes): Removed tracking speed penalty, added 25% tracking speed bonus

Yea I find it psychologically fascinating how CCP still keeps buffing the OTHER ammo in the dev blog thats supposed to be about buffing gallente..

The ammo thats in the most need of fixing is the T2 BLASTER ammo, CCP. Remove the tracking penalty. Pretty please.


First of, this is a hybrid boost. Caldari uses those too you know? Especially Rails!

And for gods sake, the Long-Range T2 ammo has needed this change for a long time now. It's only fair to apply it to all weapon systems equally. This does of course require that blaster and rail balancing works and the weapon systems do end up balanced! If that is the case it would be unfair to have only applied this change to one of them...

I do agree on the tracking penalty for close range T2 ammo as well though. Doesn't have to be turned into a bonus, but should at least not make tracking more difficult than it already is at those ranges...
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#704 - 2011-11-02 16:59:47 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:

"Eagle is terrible, Deimos is terrible, Rokh is terrible, Proteus is terrible... etc."
Keep posting specific examples. We can't fix everything at once, but hearing the problems from you helps us prioritize what needs to be looked at.



I approve of getting it to SISSI to start testing it. With regards to specifics for the Deimos:

It's too large. 160m signature radius as it slowly charges it's enemies means not much will fail to hit it.
It's too slow. It goes half the speed of a Vagabond and has 25% of the range. Comparing ships and even the Eagle goes faster then it - before you add plates or anything else.
It's bonuses should be looked at. With less cap going to the guns is the MWD bonus all that neccesary? I would suggest either the much maligned web bonus OR an overheat bonus OR a warp core stab point ala blockade runners for leaving when the stars don't line up.
Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#705 - 2011-11-02 17:03:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Raimo
Hi Tallest, thanks for your reply!

CCP Tallest wrote:


"Armor rigs should not reduce speed"
Possibly... I definitely considered it and haven't completely dismissed it.

"This isn't enough, we need bigger boosts to damage"
That is entirely possible but I believe this is a good starting point.


The 2 most important points from your post, IMHO. Please do consider these carefully before going live (and ok, Hail too)

(And do consider overload damage buff combined with a very small straight damage boost as a possibility for blasters, too. But they really do need more damage)
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#706 - 2011-11-02 17:04:34 UTC  |  Edited by: thoth rothschild
The best deimos fix is already on tranquility. it is called adrestia. perfect blaster boat, perfect hybrid fix

now compare adrestia with deimos and it will be clear why it is perfect.
Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#707 - 2011-11-02 17:04:38 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:

I approve of getting it to SISSI to start testing it. With regards to specifics for the Deimos:

It's too large. 160m signature radius as it slowly charges it's enemies means not much will fail to hit it.
It's too slow. It goes half the speed of a Vagabond and has 25% of the range. Comparing ships and even the Eagle goes faster then it - before you add plates or anything else.
It's bonuses should be looked at. With less cap going to the guns is the MWD bonus all that neccesary? I would suggest either the much maligned web bonus OR an overheat bonus OR a warp core stab point ala blockade runners for leaving when the stars don't line up.


While the MWD bonus is actually somewhat good, I'd *love* to see the bolded bit implemented instead! :D
Capqu
Half Empty
#708 - 2011-11-02 17:07:19 UTC
as a taranis pilot

+20% tracking

-30% cap use

-12% power grid on light neutron blasters (what most people use)

+3 CPU

-5% inertia

sounds a bit good


also could you please add some speed to some/one of the proteus subsystems most commonly used with blasters? and please remove the tracking penalty on void, it's still not better than faction antimatter in most cases for that reason
Kumq uat
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#709 - 2011-11-02 17:07:56 UTC
Digital Gaidin wrote:
CCP Tallest wrote:
Hello all. Sorry for not replying more. I've been a tad busy. We're trying to get these changes to SISI so we can start playing around with them. Once this is on SISI, please post more feedback in the test server feedback forums.

Here are some responses to your concerns.

"Hail boost is too much"
Possibly... I might change it to a 25% falloff penalty instead of removing it completely.

"Tech II ammo needs to be rethought"
I agree that we need to take a better look at this. What I did was just reacting to some issues that I found to be very obvious when comparing them to tech 1 ammo.

"Eagle is terrible, Deimos is terrible, Rokh is terrible, Proteus is terrible... etc."
Keep posting specific examples. We can't fix everything at once, but hearing the problems from you helps us prioritize what needs to be looked at.

"Reduce hybrid ammo size"
That's a pretty good idea. I'll look into it.

"Armor rigs should not reduce speed"
Possibly... I definitely considered it and haven't completely dismissed it.

"This isn't enough, we need bigger boosts to damage"
That is entirely possible but I believe this is a good starting point.

First, thanks for a response and reading our thoughts!!! Big smile

To respond directly to your response though...

Tech 2 changes are nice (across the board), even if they will shake up the LP Store markets some as a few faction ammo types will become second rate. Those aren't really a hybrid fix though, as has already been pointed out, as much as a general "T2 Ammo kinda sucks" fix for many of the non-used ammo types.

Regarding specific ship setups and how they can be fixed, these are directly related to the core philosophy behind the use of blasters, and this is exactly what people are complaining about. Blasters need a reason to be used, as their lack of weapon damage types combined with range, capacitor usage, and targeted hulls (slow, fat, armor tanked, and lacking the slots to make for a manageable tank/buffer while increasing damage via magstabs to the levels necessary) just do not make a compelling reason to use them over something else. You can fix armor rigs, nudge gallente ships faster, etc... but there needs to be a compelling reason to use a weapon system for it to actually be used.,,, else you end up nudging and nudging until the system just becomes overpowered and invalidates other weapon systems.

The nuclear option COMBINED with enough tracking to fight at 500m with traversal seems like the one niche where Blasters can excel. Crank up the damage to where Gallente ships can really excel in ONE area better than all others, and a real use will exist (even if it isn't what many are looking for). Today I have real reasons to fly Amarr, Minmatar, and Caldari hulls in a variety of combat situations. For those of us who love Gallente, all we ask is that Gallente get given a real reason to fly their hulls (beyond running missions in drone boats). Preferably, whatever it is that is provided, some of us would ask that it doesn't invalidate the existing paradigms that are in place for other races' ships and their corresponding weapon systems.


This times a million
Digital Gaidin
Manetheren Rising
#710 - 2011-11-02 17:09:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Digital Gaidin
As a follow-up to some ship buffing for Gallente...

Proteus - Give them a setup that allows 125m3 drone bandwidth
Hyperion - Increase drone bandwidth to 125m3
Myrmidon - Increase drone bandwidth to 100m3 (or 125m3)
Eos - Increase drone bandwidth to 100m3 (or 125m3)

All blaster boats - Either increase speed to match their desired prey (before modules come into play), or keep their speed as is and increase base armor hitpoints. Their mixed slot layout provides some real versatility in PvP, but they don't have the survivability to be anything but glass cannons unless they gimp their DPS for a half-assed tank, and neither option lets them compete in a foot race when nano'd setups come into play.

Drones - A few nudges in the direction of making drones faster and more survivable on the battlefield will increase Gallente desirability in a range of engagements. Give Heavy Drones the speed of Medium drones, and medium drones half way between where they are now and light drones. Bump up the usefullness of combat utility drones, and possibly consider introducing smaller web drones into the game. This change, while affecting everyone, will have the most benefit towards Gallente hulls.

For Hybrids - Ask yourself on any blaster boat why I should fit blasters instead of Projectiles. If you find yourself still wanting to fit Autocannons (so your tank is cap stable, so your range is extended, so you can switch damage types, etc.) than something is still wrong with blasters. The ship I think about the most for this is the Myrmidon. I can put a nice tank on this and use my drone DPS as the primary weapon system, but Projectiles are just gravy on top while Hybrids complicate the setup. I am not saying blasters should be projectiles (far from it), but I would never trade 500 DPS at under 10km range for a 180 DPS at 10km and the ability to do some damage at 25km unless I was goofing around. Blasters should be UBER on blaster ships, and moderate to good on non-blaster ships if being used in their target engagement range. Lasers and Projectiles already satisfy this for their uses and targeted range, lets give Hybrids some use here as well!

And for the good things, as most of our energy has been focused on what we think can be done better...
* Hybrid ammo size reduction is good!
* Hybrid capacitor reduction needed is good!
* Hybrid tracking increases are good, however I question whether they will make fighting between 500-2500m any better than it is today, and/or fix the issues when under 10km when the target is unwebbed...
* Gallente ship speed increases - maybe, though seems superficial unless they can really break speed against their desired targets (assuming those targets aren't nanoed as the Gallente doesn't have the slots to increase his speed without some serious tradeoffs - tradeoffs being good but forcing those tradeoffs to be effective is bad). I still think keeping them where they are and increasing base armor would be better with a nuclear option for blasters, but I'm a little biased towards that solution as I think its a really good idea Cool

If you want to bring Projectiles down to earth, you could take the nerfing idea of making all their ammo types Explosive/Kinetic only. If you don't go the nuclear option for blasters, it might help level the playing field - especially in the very close range bracket where blasters operate!
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#711 - 2011-11-02 17:12:28 UTC
thoth rothschild wrote:
The best deimos fix is already on tranquility. it is called adrestia. perfect blaster boat, perfect hybrid fix

now compare adrestia with deimos and it will be clear why it is perfect.


I WANT THAT !!

I'd need a full hangar of those s'il vous plait CCP Pirate

Would like to use magic stuff, blow it and get blown all teeth out yelling "BAAANZAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII"
MiliasColds
Strategic Incompetence
Blue Sun Interstellar Technologies
#712 - 2011-11-02 17:23:33 UTC
huh, the adrestia is the perfect fix, it has the nuclear, the snatch and grab, the speed, and the tracking to use the guns.... + some range bonus to actually have reach. i mean THAT is a blaster platform :)
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#713 - 2011-11-02 17:30:15 UTC
thoth rothschild wrote:
The best deimos fix is already on tranquility. it is called adrestia. perfect blaster boat, perfect hybrid fix

now compare adrestia with deimos and it will be clear why it is perfect.

Either that or the proteus. 900dps with 180k EHP, or 400dps with 400k ehp. Basically those two ships are the only blaster ships ive flown that work.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction

Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#714 - 2011-11-02 17:44:09 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
thoth rothschild wrote:
The best deimos fix is already on tranquility. it is called adrestia. perfect blaster boat, perfect hybrid fix

now compare adrestia with deimos and it will be clear why it is perfect.

Either that or the proteus. 900dps with 180k EHP, or 400dps with 400k ehp. Basically those two ships are the only blaster ships ive flown that work.



I'd like an extra mid slot instead of utility high "power core multiplier" sub: +1 low +1 mid (instead of high and not being hard point)

So I could fit mwd+scram+web+cap inj instead of having to choose between either web either scram, the point on pvp with this little babe is to have the long range scram so no way I change the sub ! -but you can add an extra mid. Lol
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#715 - 2011-11-02 17:45:06 UTC  |  Edited by: thoth rothschild
I've got another example for poor gallente ships
astarte & eos.


astarte is underwhelimg compared to it's sister the sleipnir. less range, less speed, less tank,
eos is the poorest gallente shiip of all. information link is least used, 75m³ dronewidth is without any words, speed and tank is both poor.

Sorry Guys i will use bold font now.

The problem is not the weapon system but the combination of ship hulls and weapon system.
Shmekla
Federal Defense Union
#716 - 2011-11-02 18:00:48 UTC
I'm sure that someone already noted it here (did not read whole thread).
My vision of blaster boats: they are agile (definitely need boost), high dps (maybe current dps is ok) and tracking ships (definitely need boost).

Agility, not speed, is important for blaster ships. if you can gain speed faster than other that mean you can faster get it scramble/web range or leave disruptor range. Leave speed for minmatar. Agility is for gallente.
5% better agility is not enough.

Your speed gain should be like dash, and you should have change moving vector fast. Much quicker that other ships, because it's "all or nothing" type.

Important tactical range is from 0 up to 24km. Taking in mind scramble and web range it becomes 10-24km that blaster boats has troubles in. Using agility and acceleration blaster boat should cover ~8-10km of that range faster than minmatar or amar ships.

That way minmatar pilot knows that he has ~4 km safe range if he gets to close, agile ship could burs towards him and scram/web him. In other side galente pilots know that if minmatar are to far for burst (minmatar would get his speed before galente could reach him) he always could use his agility, turn fast and burst in opposite direction and get out of disruptor range.

Digital Gaidin
Manetheren Rising
#717 - 2011-11-02 18:05:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Digital Gaidin
Shmekla wrote:
I'm sure that someone already noted it here (did not read whole thread).
My vision of blaster boats: they are agile (definitely need boost), high dps (maybe current dps is ok) and tracking ships (definitely need boost).

Agility, not speed, is important for blaster ships. if you can gain speed faster than other that mean you can faster get it scramble/web range or leave disruptor range. Leave speed for minmatar. Agility is for gallente.
5% better agility is not enough.

Your speed gain should be like dash, and you should have change moving vector fast. Much quicker that other ships, because it's "all or nothing" type.

Important tactical range is from 0 up to 24km. Taking in mind scramble and web range it becomes 10-24km that blaster boats has troubles in. Using agility and acceleration blaster boat should cover ~8-10km of that range faster than minmatar or amar ships.

That way minmatar pilot knows that he has ~4 km safe range if he gets to close, agile ship could burs towards him and scram/web him. In other side galente pilots know that if minmatar are to far for burst (minmatar would get his speed before galente could reach him) he always could use his agility, turn fast and burst in opposite direction and get out of disruptor range.


It doesn't fix the Hybrid issue, but I think this is an elegant solution to the Gallente ship issue.

The dash potential would need to be significant and would also need to be counterbalanced with chasing potential, as Gallente ships would align crazy fast when pursuing or running between systems... especially if used in a pack where Lachesis could be your tacklers and ships fit a nano setup with a shield buffer so they can free up their lows for gank and speed (with even more insane align potential).

Then again, if you ran Railguns on super fast aligning ships it might redefine sniper warfare. On second thought, would need some serious testing to make sure it doesn't cause abuse. Example: Fit Artillery with gyro's and nano's on a very fast aligning Gallente battleship with a weaker shield buffer... interesting potential...
Lee Vanden
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#718 - 2011-11-02 18:17:22 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
thoth rothschild wrote:
The best deimos fix is already on tranquility. it is called adrestia. perfect blaster boat, perfect hybrid fix

now compare adrestia with deimos and it will be clear why it is perfect.

Either that or the proteus. 900dps with 180k EHP, or 400dps with 400k ehp. Basically those two ships are the only blaster ships ive flown that work.



I'd like an extra mid slot instead of utility high "power core multiplier" sub: +1 low +1 mid (instead of high and not being hard point)

So I could fit mwd+scram+web+cap inj instead of having to choose between either web either scram, the point on pvp with this little babe is to have the long range scram so no way I change the sub ! -but you can add an extra mid. Lol


The diemos needs an extra midslot too, for the same reason.
Shmekla
Federal Defense Union
#719 - 2011-11-02 18:18:38 UTC
Digital Gaidin wrote:

It doesn't fix the Hybrid issue, but I think this is an elegant solution to the Gallente ship issue.

+1 from me, though that dash potential would need to be significant and would also need to be counterbalanced with chasing potential, as Gallente ships would align crazy fast when pursuing or running between systems... especially if used in a pack where Lachesis could be your tacklers and ships fit a nano setup with a shield buffer so they can free up their lows for gank and speed (with even more insane align potential).


I agree that hybrids needs boost, especially in tracking (you coming close full speed at your prey and start orbiting and what... you can not track, it's double edge sword- you must use speed to get close and because of these same speed you can not track... )
i just want to point maybe new concept to blaster boats. There should be ~20 km dead zone around blaster boat because of their agility.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#720 - 2011-11-02 18:22:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
thoth rothschild wrote:
I've got another example for poor gallente ships
astarte & eos.


astarte is underwhelimg compared to it's sister the sleipnir. less range, less speed, less tank,
eos is the poorest gallente shiip of all. information link is least used, 75m³ dronewidth is without any words, speed and tank is both poor.

Sorry Guys i will use bold font now.

The problem is not the weapon system but the combination of ship hulls and weapon system.


Seconded. The Eos is very hard to justify in a fleet because of the hull issue, compared to it's command ship counterparts which add real value:


  1. Given that the Information Warfare bonuses are mainly beneficial to enhance ECM boats and help counter ECCM - it is best used in Shield Gangs
  2. Sadly - It isn't a shield based ship, although it can fit one, it won't win any 'Prettiest Pig at the Faire' awards.
  3. It's excellent drone capability was nerfed badly so that the ship no longer had any real advantages to offer. Should allowed to run 5 large drones like before.


My suggestion is give the Eos +1 medium slot to allow for hull type changes, and a more shield HP, and an increase in drone bandwidth to make it attractive to fly once more.

In the same way, the Claymore also needs armor tank balancing in the same way Eos needs shield balancing as both of these command ships sort of awkwardly sit in the twilight zone.

Indeed, you could argue that bumping the Claymore low slots by +1 and increasing it's armor HP would go some way to offering some of the speed boost that Blaster pilots are asking for in this thread, while making the Claymore tactically relevant in an armor gang. The only way to fly a Claymore at present in Armor gangs is to stay well away from the fight, typically with the logistics and the tank requirements removes any real DPS from the fit. It isn't exactly... 'fun'.

I don't want to digress from the hybrid thread here, but see the Eos and Claymore suffering from the same sort of issue, with the Claymore offering some of the features blaster pilots are asking for - AKA speed.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans