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New dev blog: Hybrid weapon and Tech II ammo balancing

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Author
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
#721 - 2011-11-02 18:33:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Torp
thoth rothschild wrote:
After 35 pages i really think the only possible solution will be

=> minmatar with hybrids and gallente with projectiles.
(Giving Aretha the rifle and Bolt the shotgun)


The minmatar playstile (Shield&Speed) would perfectly fit with blasters. hit hard and run ... While gallente (Armor Tank) likes the range control which projectiles do provide. Easy fix.

Whoever had the idea to give armor tanks short range weapons should receive a falcepalm.
To be fair, in the beginning Ships like the Thorax had a function like the modern cynaball but that is long long in the past....


After reading all the posts (included the reply of CCP) i only get three ideas:
- Making that armor rigs (and i suppose that armor modules, right?) don't receive speed penalties doesn't solve the problem. Armor are also used by Amarr. Try to catch an Amarr without additional weight and uber-range, then you will know the new FOTM. Ah, and insta-reload for fitting range. And I recognize I thought it was a great idea, but can't alow that.
- The quoted idea of switching weapon systems between Minmatar and Gallente. And to hit with the bone of the justice to the stupid that thought in these planning of the races...
- The idea of dropping hybrids, reimburse hybrid SP and make Gallente Laser ships and Caldari Projectile ships. I thought in this classification as Gallente are always more trained for cap usage than Caldari. And lasers are a hole of cap.

That or... enabling a feature to ignore that trolls of Digital Gaidin and Sizeof Void about giving stupid ideas like that "NUCLEAR feature" or the stating of hybrids as a "tiny niche" for 4 stupids that doesn't use Projectile or Lasers.
PD: I've got almost 5M SP in Hybrid.
PD2: I've discovered how to hide posts from a user. Owwwwwwww Yeah!!!!

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp

fukier
Brave Collective
#722 - 2011-11-02 18:39:20 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
here are the fixes for hybrids:

blasters:

concept shotguns (short range arties...)

1. Increase base damage by 50%
2. Decrease rate of fire by 30%
3. Increase falloff by 15%
4. increase tracking by 37.5%

railguns: Concept long range auto cannons

1. Increase base damage by 15%
2. Increase rate of fire by 15%
3. decrease activation cost by 40%
4. increase tracking by 37.5%

ammo:

Simular boost that projectile ammo got

concept choice between what damage type you want to do between thermal and Kinetic (i.e. antimater does 80% thermal damage 20% kin damage, uranium does 80% kin damage and 20% thermal damage)

also include a tracking bonus built into the ammo

Caldari boost:
remove the optimal range bonus for hybrid turrets and replace with a rate of fire bonus

gallente boost:
remove the falloff bonus and tracking bonus and replace with a speed pulpusion moduel mass reduction per level

change the internal rep bonus to include a bonus incomming remote rep

General fix:
change the speed reduction affect on armor rigs and replace with an agility reduction
change reload time from 10 seconds to 5 seconds



CCP TBH this is the fix... just do this and tweek a bit on sisi and presto two races are fixed... we dont need to spend months on working on minor fixes we should pump out a real fix and then balance it...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Kiev Duran
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#723 - 2011-11-02 18:40:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiev Duran
While most people see these changes as a Gallente boost, let's not forget that Caldari use hybrids and could use a little love too.

The role that CCP seems to have envisioned for Caldari ships does not exist.

The Caldari, based on most ship bonuses, are put into the "medium damage from extreme range" role. A role that no longer truly exists on any level of play. This does not just affect railguns, but missiles also. However, I'll focus on hybrids as they are the focus of of this thread and devblog.

Extreme ranges are usually considered 150 - 250 km out, and the Caldari have several ships that can, in theory, reach out and touch someone from those ranges. The real question is why would you want to do this. Considering the simple facts that not everyone flies or enjoys flying Caldari means that several people in any sufficiently large fleet will not be able to shoot from more than about 100 - 120 km. The fleet's optimal range is only as long as the member with the shortest optimal range. This means that any Caldari pilots will be forced to fit for shooting at literally half of their optimals. This means that Caldari could potentially choose a new ammo so that he'd do more damage, but in many cases this can actually lead to a damage reduction or an insignificant increase in DPS (if not using faction ammo) as spike does do significant damage for it's range bonus. Furthermore, at any ranges exceeding the warp range, it is no trouble at all for a covert ops to place himself where the enemy fleet can simply warp to their optimals. With the changes to scanning, this can take any organised fleet as few as about 12 to 13 seconds.

In smaller scale and solo stuff long range just doesn't work because of the range of warp disruptors and scramblers.

The extreme range role simply doesn't (and perhaps cannot) exist
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#724 - 2011-11-02 18:41:17 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
Hello all. Sorry for not replying more. I've been a tad busy. We're trying to get these changes to SISI so we can start playing around with them. Once this is on SISI, please post more feedback in the test server feedback forums.

Here are some responses to your concerns.

"Hail boost is too much"
Possibly... I might change it to a 25% falloff penalty instead of removing it completely.

"Tech II ammo needs to be rethought"
I agree that we need to take a better look at this. What I did was just reacting to some issues that I found to be very obvious when comparing them to tech 1 ammo.

"Eagle is terrible, Deimos is terrible, Rokh is terrible, Proteus is terrible... etc."
Keep posting specific examples. We can't fix everything at once, but hearing the problems from you helps us prioritize what needs to be looked at.

"Reduce hybrid ammo size"
That's a pretty good idea. I'll look into it.

"Armor rigs should not reduce speed"
Possibly... I definitely considered it and haven't completely dismissed it.

"This isn't enough, we need bigger boosts to damage"
That is entirely possible but I believe this is a good starting point.


Well, where to start?

T2 ammo does need to reworked. Barrage and Scorch offer too much of a performance gain over T1 ammo. It's a tenet of Eve that new players should be useful; you should not be required to train a T2 weapon before being able to contribute. But the step up from T1 to Scorch and Barrage is simply too large. Simialrly, don't introduce a T2 ammo for one weapon system that intrudes directly into the role of another weapon. Example - Hail turns ACs into blasters, Scorch turns Pulse into Beam, well, Beam with MF anyway.

Don't balance T2 ammos just by looking at their stats - you don't fly ammo, you fly ships with guns that fire ammo. If AC boats are underpowered at blaster range and you think a good solution is to increase their damage at blaster range, then consider a T2 ammo that turns ACs into blasters. Of course, it's fundamental balance that ACs need to be bad at blasters' range, because otherwise there's no damn point in blasters... oh.

Eagle is terrible. Much slower than the other two sniper HACs, much less damage than the Zealot and much less alpha than the Muninn, with no EHP advantage. There is no reason to fly it even after your proposed changes. To compensate for its very low speed and lack of alpha it needs much more rail DPS and ease of fitting - or give it mobility equal to that supposed Amarr brick, the Zealot.

Deimos is terrible. Insufficient speed to get into blaster optimal (unlike the Vaga), insufficient combination of range and tracking to hit frigates (unlike the Vaga), very poor survivability thanks to having to go into web range (unlike the Vaga). There is no reason to fly it even after your proposed changes (unlike the Vaga). There is no way of balancing the Deimos with the Vagabond without addressing the fundamental absurdity of having the shortest-range guns on slow ships.

Astarte is terrible. See Deimos comparison with Sleipnir, and the general obsolescence of field CS in favour of T3s as link platforms and tier 2 BCs as general combatants.

Rokh is terrible. It is designed for a niche of very long range sniping that does not exist, thanks to on-grid warping and instant probing. Even if this niche did exist, the Tachyon Apocalypse can do the Rokh's long-range job just as well while also having the option of more DPS at close range. At closer ranges, it is thoroughly outclassed by Scorch Apocs and artillery. There is no reason to fly it even after your proposed changes. If you want the Rokh to be useful, you need to eliminate instant on-grid probing and warping and then evict the Apocalypse from the Rokh's niche.

Ferox is terrible. It's supposed to be a cheap rail sniper, but the artillery Hurricane is far superior at this. I know there's a tier issue here too, but the fact remains that the supposed sniper BC is completely outclassed by another with no range bonuses. Crazy.

Megathron isn't terrible as such, it's just that there's no reason to fly it when you need more range in gang/fleet but don't want to give up the ability to apply great DPS at blaster range (lasers) and more mobility and survivability solo (Tempest, or something that isn't a slowarse BS).

The hybrid frigates are basically fine. Don't change them! Your proposed changes run the risk of making game balance and diversity worse, by tilting frigates towards hybrids while not giving anyone a reason to fly a heavier hybrid subcapital.

T1 cruisers that aren't the Blackbird are terrible, because they've been completely obsoleted by tier 2 battlecruisers possessing much more, better-tracking DPS, more EHP and having the slots to be fit to be faster and more agile. "Better than cruisers at being cruisers" is the phrase, and it's killed them.
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
#725 - 2011-11-02 18:42:58 UTC
Kiev Duran wrote:
While most people see these changes as a Gallente boost, let's not forget that Caldari use hybrids and could use a little love too.

The role that CCP seems to have envisioned for Carlari ships does not exist.

The Caldari, based on most ship bonuses, are put into the "medium damage from extreme range" role. A role that no longer truely exists on any level of play. This does not just affect railguns, but missiles also. However, I'll focus on hybrids as they are the focus of of this thread and devblog.

Extreme ranges are usually considered 150 - 250 km out, and the Caldari have several ships that can, in theory, reach out and touch someone from those ranges. The real question is why would you want to do this. Considering the simple facts that not everyone flys or enjoys flying Caldari means that several people in any suffeciently large fleet will not be able to shoot from more than about 100 - 120 km. The fleet's optimal range is only as long as the member with the shortest optimal range. This means that any Caldari pilots will be forced to fit for shooting at literally half of their optimals. This means that Caldari could potentially choose a new ammo so that he'd do more damage, but in many cases this can actually lead to a damage reduction or an insignifigant increase in DPS (if not using faction ammo) as spike does do signifigant damage for it's range bonus. Furthermore, at any ranges exceeding the warp range, it is no trouble at all for a covert ops to place himself where the enemy fleet can simply warp to their optimals. With the changes to scanning, this can take any organised fleet as few as about 12 to 13 seconds.

In smaller scale and solo stuff long range just doesn't work because of the range of warp disruptors and scramblers.

The extreme range role simply doesn't (and perhaps cannot) exist


I have never understood how Caldari are rail boats. They have Optimal Range bonus, they should be Blasters platforms (BlasterRokh ;)

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#726 - 2011-11-02 18:53:12 UTC
Phoenix Torp wrote:


I have never understood how Caldari are rail boats. They have Optimal Range bonus, they should be Blasters platforms (BlasterRokh ;)


Ironically, you can argue that blasters work better on Caldari hulls and rails work better on Gallente hulls. Range bonuses and shield tanks help offset blasters' drawbacks of poor range and slowing rigs and armour; the non-existence of long-range sniping forces railboats to operate at closer range where the Gallente damage bonus is more useful than the Caldari optimal bonus.

Not that it really matters, you'd be insane to use either when you could be using projectiles, with a side helping of lasers.
Durie
Perkone
Caldari State
#727 - 2011-11-02 18:55:43 UTC
I really like the idea of blasters as the shotguns of EVE. However in most games shotguns are pretty terrible competitively (compared to assault rifles/rocket launchers/etc). So, I thought about what situations (in other games) would a player choose to wield a shotgun and came up with dealing tons of damage at point blank range to large targets or dealing with swarms of smaller enemies. What would people think about making blasters effective weapons against smaller ships/drones? (like flak cannons/shot guns) While this sort of treads on smartbomb territory, I think it could create an interesting niche where blasters would be effective against larger or smaller targets but less effective than autocannons against ships of the same size.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#728 - 2011-11-02 18:56:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Hungry Eyes
tallest, thanks for reading. please take your time on these changes. dont rush to roll out something incomplete just to please the players temporarily.

remember, blaster are COMPLETELY robbed of their role by PULSES and AC'S currently. given what youve done so far, blasters will remain unused, i promise you. the rail buff is better, but you have to have another look at hybrid ammo to give people more viable options (ideally different damage types).

- if you're gonna keep blaster range the same, significantly increase the damage, and speed and/or resilience of ALL blaster boats
- you can fix blaster range by playing around with hybrid ammo, especially Null; in this case, closely keep an eye on the damage and maybe the ships dont need as much tweaking

DO NOT FORGET -

there are some ridiculously OP Minmatar boats that can put out impressive damage with impressive tracking and falloff, while maintaining top speeds and decent tanks. Machariel, I'm looking at you. seriously consider dealing with autocannons as well.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#729 - 2011-11-02 19:02:44 UTC
Phoenix Torp wrote:
I have never understood how Caldari are rail boats. They have Optimal Range bonus, they should be Blasters platforms (BlasterRokh ;)


Back when rails and range sniping was valid tactic.
Since then, lasers and projectiles had great buffs and sniping tactic is no longer valid.

Then becomes worst with blasters, while the +optimal might be nice on paper doesn't compensate the fact that the ship is slow, terribad agility, sign explosion if it ever uses mwd, can't fit a decent active tank or passive one with all modules required to make blasters work, overall is a terrible ship with blasters.

With the new blaster fitting requirements and stats it can maybe become something interesting to use. Needs some tests on sisi thou.
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#730 - 2011-11-02 19:13:25 UTC
I think Tallest is beginning to realize the laundry list of requisite changes to bring hybrid ships up to par is massive.

I hope he also realizes that the simple alternative is to take a look at projectiles and sorch first, necessitating fewer and less extensive buffs to hyrbids. At present, I don't see how a rokh, eagle, diemost, etc. is going to compete. They'll use a bit less cap, but still die to neuts (popular additions to any minmatar loadout). They'll be slightly more mobile, but still fail to catch speedy minmatar ships. Rails will have slightly more dps, but they'll still be dramatically sub-par to artillery and lasers at realistic engagement ranges. Blasters will still have problems applying their dps in any engagement.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#731 - 2011-11-02 19:20:39 UTC
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
I think Tallest is beginning to realize the laundry list of requisite changes to bring hybrid ships up to par is massive.

I hope he also realizes that the simple alternative is to take a look at projectiles and sorch first, necessitating fewer and less extensive buffs to hyrbids. At present, I don't see how a rokh, eagle, diemost, etc. is going to compete. They'll use a bit less cap, but still die to neuts (popular additions to any minmatar loadout). They'll be slightly more mobile, but still fail to catch speedy minmatar ships. Rails will have slightly more dps, but they'll still be dramatically sub-par to artillery and lasers at realistic engagement ranges. Blasters will still have problems applying their dps in any engagement.


Many Hybrid ships have needed fixing for a long time, so why not now?

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 

ArmyOfMe
Teddybears.
Dead Terrorists
#732 - 2011-11-02 19:22:18 UTC  |  Edited by: ArmyOfMe
Sizeof Void wrote:

1. When your strategy is to drop right on top of your target (see my other post - and feel free to flame), you don't need a MWD. Also, assuming that you've trained up your energy management skills, you don't need a cap booster - not in a buffer tanked Gallente gunship. The Thorax, Brutix, and Megathron, with a full rack of T2 neutrons, are cap stable, without any mods/rigs. At close range, you don't need a sebo, and when your opponent does less DPS and has less tank than you, you don't need a tracking disruptor. So, yes, there is room for a scram and two webs.

Sizeof Void wrote:

You jump the blaster boat within blaster range, get it? There is no approach, and thus no issue in your hand.

Shocked
Im trying very hard to deside if your a troll or really this dumb

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.

Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
#733 - 2011-11-02 19:26:32 UTC
ArmyOfMe wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:

1. When your strategy is to drop right on top of your target (see my other post - and feel free to flame), you don't need a MWD. Also, assuming that you've trained up your energy management skills, you don't need a cap booster - not in a buffer tanked Gallente gunship. The Thorax, Brutix, and Megathron, with a full rack of T2 neutrons, are cap stable, without any mods/rigs. At close range, you don't need a sebo, and when your opponent does less DPS and has less tank than you, you don't need a tracking disruptor. So, yes, there is room for a scram and two webs.

Sizeof Void wrote:

You jump the blaster boat within blaster range, get it? There is no approach, and thus no issue in your hand.

Shocked
Im trying very hard to deside if your a troll or really this dumb


It's a troll. That and Digital Gaidin. Under his name there's an arrow > Hide Posts XD

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp

Cordo Draken
ABOS Industrial Enterprises
#734 - 2011-11-02 19:32:51 UTC
What about the Eagle? No speed boost to that? With it's name, it should be a fast moving, hard hitting and agile ship. Plus, the Eagle is one ship that desperately needs to dump the Moa hull and redesigned with something more befitting of its name. Hell the Hookbill looks more like a striking Bird than the lame Moa. The Scorpion got a much needed face-lift, the Eagle does too!

+1 for the Hybrid Boosts!

Whomever said, "You only get one shot to make a good impression," was utterly wrong. I've made plenty of great impressions with my Autocannons 

Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#735 - 2011-11-02 19:37:11 UTC
Moonaura wrote:
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
I think Tallest is beginning to realize the laundry list of requisite changes to bring hybrid ships up to par is massive.

I hope he also realizes that the simple alternative is to take a look at projectiles and sorch first, necessitating fewer and less extensive buffs to hyrbids. At present, I don't see how a rokh, eagle, diemost, etc. is going to compete. They'll use a bit less cap, but still die to neuts (popular additions to any minmatar loadout). They'll be slightly more mobile, but still fail to catch speedy minmatar ships. Rails will have slightly more dps, but they'll still be dramatically sub-par to artillery and lasers at realistic engagement ranges. Blasters will still have problems applying their dps in any engagement.


Many Hybrid ships have needed fixing for a long time, so why not now?


I'm not saying they shouldn't be fixed now. I'm saying the best and most efficient means of fixing them also involves nerfing projectiles and scorch.
Lekgoa
Sardaukar Merc Guild
General Tso's Alliance
#736 - 2011-11-02 19:41:57 UTC
Tiger's Spirit wrote:
Lekgoa wrote:
Enyo with neutrons + NULL: 212 gun dps @ 4.2+3.9
Wolf with 200's + HAIL: 286 gun dps @ 0.8+9

It's the same story across all gun sizes. With these changes, Minmatar's close-range high-dps ammo outranges Gallente's long-range low-dps ammo. Matari ships are still significantly faster than their Gallente counterparts (Wolf 987 m/s, Enyo around 900 m/s post-patch).

etc etc etc


Man, null vs hail ???
Maybe you need to compare void vs hail. Null vs barrage. Do not create false comparison with other type ammos.

Enyo with neutrons + void + overheat 312dps+20dps from drone=332 dps
Wolf with 200's + HAIL+overheat: 286 gun dps (with your numbers) but just that 240 without overheat with one gyro and full lvl5 skill
More one thing, with overheat the Wolf's damage is just 276 and not 286dps.

etc etc etc


Train Reading Comprehension to 4 and reread my post. The point was that with no falloff penalty Hail hits farther than Null, which is just plain silly.

As for my numbers, they use 4 guns + 1 damage mod + 2 damage rigs on both ships. Both are cold dps.
Vrykolakasis
Sparrowhawks Corp
#737 - 2011-11-02 19:44:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Vrykolakasis
I honestly still don't know if I'll use hail with a 25% falloff penalty. I might. It's an improvement over what it is now for sure, I'd have to actually play around with it to see if it would become useful like that.

I do understand the "young players should be useful" bit about t2 ammo but I also think there should be a good bit of reward for actually training t2 stuff, and that t2 ammo should be pretty freaking good.

Edit: yeah, hail needs the reduction in falloff unless blasters can be improved more. I STILL might not use it, but can't ask for that kind of unfairness.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#738 - 2011-11-02 19:48:47 UTC
Moonaura wrote:

Many Hybrid ships have needed fixing for a long time, so why not now?



THIS. CCP, seriously...now is the time. fix them all. seriously.
Jeffrey Powel
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#739 - 2011-11-02 19:50:11 UTC
Specific fix,

hyperion :
-Add a low slot, reduce drone bay, to have same slot number as the abaddon (20), and same or less drone, to have a REAL TRUE ONLY blasterboat.

Work on the armor rep amount bonus, to have incoming remote rep bonus too, or a standard resist bonus.

Deimos :
-Move1 hight slot for a med or a low, OR add a turret hardpoint.

Eagle :
-Add a turret hard point, add a bit powergrid, change damage bonus for ROF bonus.
Anvil44
Independent Traders and Builders
#740 - 2011-11-02 19:52:25 UTC
I've seen so many solution ideas that run all over, that I am beginning to think Gallente should not be changed in any way. Then have the war with the Caldari restart, say the Gallente was all wiped out and bring it down to 3 races with the remnants of the Gallente empire broken among the remaining 3 empires. Big smile

I always considered Artillery to be a high ROF but lower on the alpha than a Rail Gun. Rail Guns should be massive kinetic damage from an impressive range. Autocannon should have high ROF and blasters high damage. Neither should out-range the other by any significant amounts. It will fall down to speed vs tracking.

I wish I could give better examples but too many people here have far more knowledge and experience than myself, but I can give this final thought: I am Gallente but have trained to Caldari as it is far more favorable to have a ship that gets decent speed, decent damage, decent range and decent tank, or nice combos of 2 or 3 of those (Drake has no speed but good range, damage and BS level tank). With a Gallente ship it is either tank or damage...forget speed. And even range is pretty weak compared to comparable Caldari and it's range/damage. Why fly Gallente?

I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it.