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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

First post First post First post
Author
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#421 - 2013-08-30 03:09:54 UTC
Ravasta Helugo wrote:
So, let me get this straight:

On Monday, my X-Type Armor Rep will do 30% more rep...

And then, this Winter, my Pally will also get a magic button that makes NPC EWAR not work on me...

And my Falloff will be out to around 115k...

And there'll be a 30% non-stacking EANM/DC...

And my rep will increase by a further 100 PERCENT...

AND there will be a cool animation associated will all of this ass kickery?


... Holy F**k.


First off, you repper only does 15% more.
As for the rest of the stuff, yeah, but you also get a LOT of nerfs.
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#422 - 2013-08-30 03:16:04 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


PALADIN
  • Signature radius: 420(-80)

  • GOLEM
  • Signature radius: 450(-125)

  • KRONOS
  • Signature radius: 420(-80)


  • VARGUR

  • Signature radius: 360(-65)



  • sig on the vargur....

    im tired of winmatar online


    I though everyone got used to obvious : That Minmatar ships must be most versatile, fastest , most agile along with lowest signatue ... why ? Because we are Minmatars. What price we pay for this advantage ? We don't we are minmatars.

    It may sound like sarcasm , but actually i'm starting to live with it :<. I always though for some advantage there must be drawback but Minnies and gallente also are exception. Just advantages.

    Tho this balance pass is surprisingly good. Paladin cap will be retardely insane. So for first time i must say amarr ship will get it's own advantage.

    I will say even more i'm pleased with overral approach in this topic : Amarr GOT something NOONE got. Yeah i still don't believe i say this. Usually other factions get amarr stuff as free bonus .

    I would like to see one racial trait reversed, and I think some balance would return:

    Scan Res: Switch Caldari and Minni scan res across every companion ship. Every. Single. One.

    Caldari should have the best sensors, and Minni electronics should be ****. For some reason though, the high tech Caldari have the worst scan res every single time- to include Marauders.

    I say this as an Amarr pilot.
    Arthur Aihaken
    CODE.d
    #423 - 2013-08-30 03:16:21 UTC
    I've been mulling this around more. I can't see players running both a Bastion and salvage fit - but even so there should be a bit of a tradeoff. I think the class would be better served by instead allocating the extra high slot to a medium or low. The powergrid requirements for the Bastion module should also be in the 500-1000 range.

    I'm not crazy about the idea of "siege light", so I would eliminate all speed restrictions and instead require heavy water to operate (200 units per cycle), leave the cycle at a flat 60 seconds and instead have the Bastion skill reduce heavy water consumption by 5% per skill level. I still like the idea of enhancing it with a +10% rate of fire and -10% reloading time per skill level, and offset this with a 120-second cooldown period (which could also be reduced by 5% per Bastion skill level).

    It can't micro jump while in Bastion mode, there's a penalty on gate use - so without a jump drive it's not like it's going anywhere.

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

    Bienator II
    madmen of the skies
    #424 - 2013-08-30 03:18:02 UTC
    Siddicus wrote:
    Bienator II wrote:
    here a question: after this is released, why would anybody fly something else for pve? .



    Because the skill requirement to fly these ships maybe?

    thats very short sighted. Its like saying there won't be many titans around since they are expensive and you have to skill them.

    how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

    Ravasta Helugo
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #425 - 2013-08-30 03:19:49 UTC
    Battle Cube wrote:
    ... its not good in L4s...

    Wat
    Tzel Mayon
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #426 - 2013-08-30 03:20:06 UTC
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    I've been mulling this around more. I can't see players running both a Bastion and salvage fit - but even so there should be a bit of a tradeoff. I think the class would be better served by instead allocating the extra high slot to a medium or low. The powergrid requirements for the Bastion module should also be in the 500-1000 range.

    I'm not crazy about the idea of "siege light", so I would eliminate all speed restrictions and instead require heavy water to operate (200 units per cycle), leave the cycle at a flat 60 seconds and instead have the Bastion skill reduce heavy water consumption by 5% per skill level. I still like the idea of enhancing it with a +10% rate of fire and -10% reloading time per skill level, and offset this with a 120-second cooldown period (which could also be reduced by 5% per Bastion skill level).

    It can't micro jump while in Bastion mode, there's a penalty on gate use - so without a jump drive it's not like it's going anywhere.




    This is why I believe CCP is essentially putting two ships into one. I can't see how to effectively fit for "both" ship modes at once. So why not just create a Command Battleship that has these awesome siege tank bonus features?

    Sure, give Mauraders a great Siege DPS bonus... but make another ship for Siege Tanking, (Command Battleships). By giving them command ship bonuses, you give them a nice big shiny target that justifies why they have all that tank in the first place!
    Ravasta Helugo
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #427 - 2013-08-30 03:25:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Ravasta Helugo
    Tzel Mayon wrote:
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    I've been mulling this around more. I can't see players running both a Bastion and salvage fit - but even so there should be a bit of a tradeoff. I think the class would be better served by instead allocating the extra high slot to a medium or low. The powergrid requirements for the Bastion module should also be in the 500-1000 range.

    I'm not crazy about the idea of "siege light", so I would eliminate all speed restrictions and instead require heavy water to operate (200 units per cycle), leave the cycle at a flat 60 seconds and instead have the Bastion skill reduce heavy water consumption by 5% per skill level. I still like the idea of enhancing it with a +10% rate of fire and -10% reloading time per skill level, and offset this with a 120-second cooldown period (which could also be reduced by 5% per Bastion skill level).

    It can't micro jump while in Bastion mode, there's a penalty on gate use - so without a jump drive it's not like it's going anywhere.




    This is why I believe CCP is essentially putting two ships into one. I can't see how to effectively fit for "both" ship modes at once. So why not just create a Command Battleship that has these awesome siege tank bonus features?

    Sure, give Mauraders a great Siege DPS bonus... but make another ship for Siege Tanking, (Command Battleships). By giving them command ship bonuses, you give them a nice big shiny target that justifies why they have all that tank in the first place!

    Because 2 million EHP bricks are not enough. We must have 8 million EHP bricks!! That tank like dreads!
    Arthur Aihaken
    CODE.d
    #428 - 2013-08-30 03:25:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
    Tzel Mayon wrote:
    This is why I believe CCP is essentially putting two ships into one. I can't see how to effectively fit for "both" ship modes at once. So why not just create a Command Battleship that has these awesome siege tank bonus features?

    Sure, give Mauraders a great Siege DPS bonus... but make another ship for Siege Tanking, (Command Battleships). By giving them command ship bonuses, you give them a nice big shiny target that justifies why they have all that tank in the first place!


    Is there any group that doesn't bring a dedicate Noctis along for salvaging? (regardless of activity) The only benefit of being able to run a salvage/tractor setup is that I guess it could be utilized for solo play, so from a legacy standpoint the bonuses are fine. I'd just rather see that extra slot put to better use for the class as a medium or low. After the last command ship debate, I'm not sure I'd want to touch that with a 100-foot pole...

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

    ROCK MELTER
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #429 - 2013-08-30 03:29:46 UTC
    Will need separate:

    1. Ammo bay
    2. Stront Bay

    AND

    • Ammo bay will need to be able to hold cap boosters to these ships can be put on other ships to transport them.

    • They will need to be able to be carried in carriers and other ships with these needed items in them.

    • When they are in "siege mode" they can not eject in their pod.
    Skydell
    Bad Girl Posse
    Somethin Awfull Forums
    #430 - 2013-08-30 03:29:49 UTC
    Primary is primary is primary is insured ship loss.

    I don't want to **** on your cornflakes but as long as that is the key feature of EVE PvP nothing you do matters, nothing I do matters. Sorry guys but it just looks like more rope a dope. You want us to face tank and I think we all know that's a dead end road in EVE.
    Sarmatiko
    #431 - 2013-08-30 03:30:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarmatiko
    Bienator II wrote:
    here a question: after this is released, why would anybody fly something else for pve?

    I don't know about you, but as operator of help channel with 800+ players at prime, everyday I see recommendations to get a Tengu, Nightmare and Machariel for PVE. Any argument in defense of Marauders breaks against arrogant public opinion "Marauders are not worth invested training time, just get a Pirate BS or CNR".
    Now this will change.
    Tzel Mayon
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #432 - 2013-08-30 03:30:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tzel Mayon
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    Tzel Mayon wrote:
    This is why I believe CCP is essentially putting two ships into one. I can't see how to effectively fit for "both" ship modes at once. So why not just create a Command Battleship that has these awesome siege tank bonus features?

    Sure, give Mauraders a great Siege DPS bonus... but make another ship for Siege Tanking, (Command Battleships). By giving them command ship bonuses, you give them a nice big shiny target that justifies why they have all that tank in the first place!


    Is there any group that doesn't bring a dedicate Noctis along for salvaging? (regardless of activity) The only benefit of being able to run a salvage/tractor setup is that I guess it could be utilized for solo play, so from a legacy standpoint the bonuses are fine. I'd just rather see that extra slot put to better use for the class as a medium or low.



    For Salvaging? We haven't used Noctis ships to salvage in a /very/ long time. Launching Salvage drones from 3 battleships is /so/ much more time efficient than bringing a Noctis along. As a salvager for High Sec Lvl IVs, the Noctis is pretty obsolete.

    We do however bring an Orca at times as a Command ship, or for the Tractor Bonuses to loot containers. Or even a destroyer...

    Null sec is quite a different story though; in null sec, Wormholes, etc, the Noctis really shines--but not in high sec.
    Mara Rinn
    Cosmic Goo Convertor
    #433 - 2013-08-30 03:35:20 UTC
    Will the Bastion module be high slot? Or are we going to see a clear bias against shield or armour fleets when it turns out to be a mid or low slot?
    Chainsaw Plankton
    FaDoyToy
    #434 - 2013-08-30 03:35:34 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Yes, this can be used in high-sec of course. You just get a weapon timer (requires security to be turned off though).

    Do not underestimate the use of the bastion module, even for missions. The innate tank allows removal of tanking modules on fittings and the projection bonus helps a lot as well. I remember reaching 55-60km falloff on a Null Neutron Blaster Kronos on our internal test server Shocked

    Only one bastion module may be fitted, but the resistance given don't stack, just like Damage Control. You can still fit one -with- a damage control though.


    teehee, getting people to turn their safeties off! that should be fun.

    and that certainly seems like a lot of blaster range, does the stacking penalty apply to the optimal/falloff bonus? or was that falloff within 55-60km, as in ~20km and then 35-40km or so of falloff? oh right falloff bonus (useless imo, as you probably want rails)

    I think the kronos could probably use a bit more damage, the ability to use 3x sentry drones with its rails brought it up in dps to be nearly competitive with other marauders. although I will probably be able to throw a t2 damage rig on the paladin too. and with the range bonus on the paladin wow! A 3 damage mod, t2 rof rig, and 3 sentry drone kronos does about the same damage as a 3 damage mod with 2 sentry drone paladin. with the changes I'll probably have both with 4 damage mods and t2 rof rigs. oh yes and that was in EFT without reload time.... with reload time the kronos just looks sad.

    so with reload time, 4 faction damage mods, t2 rof rigs, 5% damage implants, no drones, and close range faction ammo, I present tachys vs 425mm railguns!
    kronos: 982 dps (without reload time 1007 dps), aw shucks, lets try null 1166 dps/1185 dps reload time isn't so bad with blasters, and for epeen numbers void! 1633/1658
    paladin: 1146 dps (1354 with conflag and 967 with scorch)
    varg: 1165 with its close range ammo and 800s

    425s and tachys have fairly similar stats (well except for damage) on a mission boat. I don't know if the ability to switch to blasters makes up for it. Null just slightly out damages a tach paladin, and well has nowhere near the range. especially vs a what 60-70km optimal tach paladin with the change? and if we are admitting the web bonus is useless for most missions well that just takes any other advantage blasters could possibly have (outside of a very small number of missions)

    as a railboat the kronos just comes up short. and well as an immobile blaster boat... well "immobile blaster boat"

    @ChainsawPlankto on twitter

    Arthur Aihaken
    CODE.d
    #435 - 2013-08-30 03:40:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
    Forget my other ideas - I just had a wild and crazy one...

    bas·tion
    • a well-fortified position
    • a projecting part of a fortification
    • a stronghold into which people could go for shelter during a battle

    Suggestion for skill name - "Redoubt" or "Garrison". Bastion works as originally proposed with one key difference: it absorbs ALL incoming fire within a 2.5km radius during its cycle. Thus, it actually functions as its name implies: a stronghold where sub capital ships can temporarily seek a reprieve. It's also unique from Siege or Triage, and might provide an interesting gameplay element.

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

    Battle Cube
    Cube Collective
    #436 - 2013-08-30 03:41:06 UTC
    Ravasta Helugo wrote:
    Battle Cube wrote:
    ... its not good in L4s...

    Wat


    its not higher damage, so it doesnt do L4s faster then current ships, so it has higher tank....which is unnecessary, so yeah, its not any better than current ships for L4s
    Cade Windstalker
    #437 - 2013-08-30 03:41:07 UTC
    I'm not really sure a further increase to tractor-beam range is needed since the MJD can just 100km and a T2 tractor-beam goes to 48km when boosted by 100%, meaning you can get within tractor beam range of things easily. That said I don't think increasing this to 150 or 200% would break anything. Tractor-Beams aren't exactly PvP modules.

    The Paladin should probably keep its cap bonus since it's already running a half rack of guns with some of the highest Battleship level cap recharge in the game. More than that anything that you could replace it with would likely end up worse or over the top. The first thing that comes to mind is a web-range or Target Painter Effectiveness bonus. The web-range bonus would step on the toes of the Bhaalgorn and the TP bonus wouldn't be worth as much as the cap bonus is.

    I think more than anything I'd like to see these ships get some of their drone-bay back. Not the drone control, but the drone-bay so that they can more easily replace damaged or destroyed drones in missions and make use of their ability to field medium drones without hurting their ability vs frigates.

    Also would a respectable bonus to Scan Res be out of the question for Bastion, or would that be too many buffs?

    I stand by this requiring a lot of testing in real world situations to get a full measure of.
    Vivi Udan
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #438 - 2013-08-30 03:42:11 UTC
    Sarmatiko wrote:
    "100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams" is an outdated bonus, especially after Noctis introduction.
    Either make this bonus dependent from Marauders skill to achieve Noctis-like results, or increase this value to 500%. After all, now we have reduced MJD reactivation and 40km tractor range is not viable anymore with 100km jumps.
    And I'm not even going to mention highly demanded salvaging bonus..Sad


    Other than that.. AWESOME!



    I definitely agree with Sarmatiko's statement, and to some extent, I feel like the proposed reductions to mobility will overly restrict the ships.

    I do have to say, these look like some great changes that will drastically change the demand for these ships. My Vindicator was in someways better than my Kronos. Keep in mind a brand new character could sit in a Vindicator in about a week versus approximately 115 days to sit in a Kronos. It's about time all those extra 'necessary' skills paid off.

    I CAN'T WAIT TO TEST THESE CHANGES ON THE TEST SERVER.

    THANK YOU CCP =]

    The Mittani of House GoonWaffe, First of His name, King of the Goons and VFK, Master of griefing, Lord of the CFC, Warden of the West, and Protector of Deklein.

    Skydell
    Bad Girl Posse
    Somethin Awfull Forums
    #439 - 2013-08-30 03:46:02 UTC
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    Forget my other ideas - I just had a wild and crazy one...

    bas·tion
    • a well-fortified position
    • a projecting part of a fortification
    • a stronghold into which people could go for shelter during a battle


    Suggestion for skill name - "Redoubt" or "Garrison". Bastion works as originally proposed with one key difference: it absorbs ALL incoming fire within a 2.5km radius during its cycle. Thus, it actually functions as its name implies: a stronghold where sub capital ships can temporarily seek a reprieve.


    an immunity timer for damage would make the module more attractive. I can see Marauder becoming a hot drop special. You can say what you want about hot drops in EVE but ships are all about their niche. That would put it on front lines and with a very defined role.
    Chainsaw Plankton
    FaDoyToy
    #440 - 2013-08-30 03:46:39 UTC
    Battle Cube wrote:
    Ravasta Helugo wrote:
    Battle Cube wrote:
    ... its not good in L4s...

    Wat


    its not higher damage, so it doesnt do L4s faster then current ships, so it has higher tank....which is unnecessary, so yeah, its not any better than current ships for L4s


    2 slot tank (3 slots if you count the bastion mod), immune to ewar, so much room for damage mods. seems pretty damn good to me.

    @ChainsawPlankto on twitter