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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

First post First post First post
Author
Tzel Mayon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#381 - 2013-08-30 01:21:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Tzel Mayon

Incursion Impact:


In most incursion fleets, there is a significant need for sniper boats. All of the current sniper battleships will be set aside for these new Siege Battleships, and the SP training time will be make incursions even more elitist, and anti-new player.


Instead of getting frigates into high level incursions, (which I think is very much needed to: engage new players, player retention, etc); CCP is again raising the SP bar, and making it even harder for New Players to engage in a great Feature.

One more time:

Create Marauder / Frigate synergies to exemplify the "Marauder Hit and Run Harassment Meme."

Lots of options here. But, a battleship supporting frigates is such a freakin' awesome idea, right???

1. Frigate MWD Fleet bonuses.
2. Frigate Racial Fleet Bonuses in a Marauder Fleet.
3. Marauder Micro-Jump Portal Generator that paints ships 200km away, and allow frigate pilots to activate the portal and jump 10km away from the target that was 200km away.

Bring New Players into the Awesomeness! Make it so everyone is looking for new frigate pilots! Let Marauders be the tool that does it!
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#382 - 2013-08-30 01:26:31 UTC
Joining the call for the Bastion Module to use Tactical Weapons Reconfig, like Siege Modules.
I'm sure that your coders are capable of dealing with the small aspect of the fuel reduction on the skill not messing things up easily in the next four months. It creates a good flow through for ships which have similar functions.
Much like Covert Ops have the same sub skills needed for function as recons do. And EAF need to train the same EWar skills. They don't suddenly change EWar skills simply because you have gone up a ship size.

Also the low base sensor strength still needs a look at. EWar immunity is all fine & dandy when deployed, but they should have at least T1 BS strength on their sensors to allow for any kind of mobility. Otherwise the MJD bonus part is utterly useless since any time not deployed you can't do anything.
Tanik Fera
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#383 - 2013-08-30 01:26:39 UTC
While the Bastion module is active can you be neuted?
Meyr
Pirannha Corp
#384 - 2013-08-30 01:27:30 UTC
can I suggest making the Kronos dronebay 75m3? It's not unreasonable to expect a Gallente ship to be able to house a flight of lights and a flight of mediums.
Onslaughtor
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#385 - 2013-08-30 01:34:55 UTC
So how much would it hurt the plan for them if Bastion mode cut the effect of all incoming reps by 30% (or whatever is reasonable) and they could still move like normal but they couldn't MJD or warp? This way I would see them being useful in a much greater area while still being very specialized.

MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#386 - 2013-08-30 01:35:58 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
i do have to agree if these things are local repair beasts then add a role bonus to target spectrum breakers

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Sgt EVE
Garage Bagage
#387 - 2013-08-30 01:36:40 UTC
5 sentry drones for all marauders ( fits to immobility and Tech 2 > faction )
unable to use other drones
sentry damage bonus for kronos instead of tracking ( railguns + sentrys > immobile blaster )
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#388 - 2013-08-30 01:37:06 UTC
Tanik Fera wrote:
While the Bastion module is active can you be neuted?


yes

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Kimsemus
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Dock Workers
#389 - 2013-08-30 01:44:08 UTC
They said I could be anything...

So I became a sentry drone.
Cade Windstalker
#390 - 2013-08-30 01:52:28 UTC
Arien Fyre wrote:
at the moment my first reaction is i HATE these changes.

I fly the Kronos more then any other ship in eve, and i am training the Paladin now.
Tell me what is the point of killing anything outside of 40KM range in a ship that cant move. Your making it so stuff takes longer.

And a nerf to the drones??
At the moment i fly with a set of salvage, scout and change between a set of 5 medium or 3 heavy/sentry drones.
I always thought this ship would be getting more drone ability, not less.

Not one of these changes has addressed that fact that other (pirate) ships do better then these ships.

The changes seem great for PVP
But not one single person who has trained these skills for this ship has done so for this reason.
I think you are giving new people a reason to train these at the expensive of everyone that trained these for their original purpose.


I think more than anything this shows where they are planning on going with the Pirate BS changes than anything, assume that post-nerf the Pirate BS are not going to be this effective at applying damage in missions.

Goldensaver wrote:
Just wondering on what the odds of these making decent anti-blap dread ships are.

Coast into Siege Bastion under prop (MWD or AB, whatever) while moving with semi-****** transversal, activate bastion, laugh as their attempts to web/paint you for the tracking dread overlords fail?

Of course there is the downside that you'll drift to the point that you've minimized transversal while still in range and die eventually... but if you haven't used your MJD, can you activate it during bastion (say, 10-30 seconds in) and jump out before you're in prime blapping range?

I wonder how these will work, and if you'll be able to MJD during it. That'll also make GTFOing real easy, unless you've got enemies waiting 100km in front of you.

I'm thinking these changes are pretty sweet. The range, tank and EWar immunity is awesome, but I'm just wondering how many ways there are to break things :)


They specifically say that the ship's speed gets set to 0, which may mean stops instantly or close to it.

Cahvus wrote:
Overall I'm intrigued by the changes. I'm more of general idea person rather than a specific numbers based guy so this is my opinion thus far:


  • Screw the whole bastion thing. It's unnecessary and if you are trying to make marauders a stepping stone to dreads, why give them a completely unrelated skill. That seems totally counter intuitive and counterproductive. They should just make a new type of siege module specifically for marauders that have a lower training time than the maybe the standard siege mod, but still linked to the same skill.
  • If you keep the Bastion Blah Blah Skill (or tie it into the siege skill), then change the bonus for Marauders. Having a skill that reduces Siege time is a bad idea in terms of fleet management. Especially if these are meant to be dread step-stones, then there is a good chance that people won't have perfect skills for them. Because of that and the way the skill is proposed to work, there is a high chance of people who have different Bastion(siege) timers than others. In terms of fleet management, having people with longer or shorter timers could be potentially headache inducing. Maybe change the bonus to increased tank in bastion mode, or reduced ammo consumption somehow?


What are you even talking about?

Current plan is to make it a completely different skill so it has nothing to do with Dread training so it won't touch your siege timers.
Barry Dylan
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#391 - 2013-08-30 01:56:30 UTC
This is the best idea ever leave tracking bonus forget DPS bonus and man, this adds another level to PVE in high-sec and like two levels to PVE in low-sec/0.0

also this benefits big fleets not at all and gives an option to small gang/solo.

DO IT
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#392 - 2013-08-30 01:56:33 UTC
What about converting tactical logistics reconfiguration to a percentage reduction in fuel use, adding a fuel bay to marauders, using heavy water as originally considered?

It would be nice to have a better range bonus for tractors, along with tractor speed and salvager cycle time or salvage chance when the bastion is active. A marauder could have the same range as a Noctis without being too efficient since the Noctis has more tractors, more salvagers, and is more likely to have salvage tackle fitted. If the marauder can't salvage the wrecks created at maximum range while en-bastion-ed, that kinda reduces the attractiveness of this ship for PvE. Even a 200% bonus to range will still make salvaging in a marauder more attractive :)
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#393 - 2013-08-30 01:57:29 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Ravasta Helugo wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
Bastion mode should add DPS. Especially since they only have 4 turrets. If you could give them 10 effective turrets instead of 8 that would be awesome.

10 effective turrets... would be awesome.

The problem I see with it is they would be tempted to apply some sort of drawback to compensate, like a tracking debuff. That would be a no-go in missions. Hence why I think they chose to just buff projection.

Something that WOULD help DPS in bastion, without being massively OP to the point it needed a debuff, would be a tracking/exp velocity boost. That would tie in better with the "projection" theme without putting 1800 DPS boats on the table.


You both do know that the Paladin has a 5% damage bonus (10 effective turrets at level V BS, so always 10 effective turrets), the Kronos has a 5% damage bonus (same as above) and the Vargur has a 5% RoF bonus (10.666 turrets).

Just saying.


Derp. What my brain muscles were trying to say was:

12.5 effective turrets (DPS) / 13.3 effective turrets (ROF) = Ain't gonna happen without a debuff.
Oberus MacKenzie
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#394 - 2013-08-30 01:58:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Oberus MacKenzie
Nerfing the cap recharge on ships that require shield boosters because of their nonexistent buffer is questionable.
I do think that if you're not going to give the paladin a tracking bonus of some kind then they need better drones to deal with close targets. Having to be far away from your target sort of defeats the purpose of having a massive active tank.
I like the minidread idea, though. Looking forward to the hit-and-run tactics that will follow. Giving them a bonus to spectrum breakers would be really cool.

Edit: the golem needs a big bonus to painter range if it wants to use them with cruise missiles.
m0jo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#395 - 2013-08-30 02:03:29 UTC
My only concern here is the vargur losing 1000 hull. Why? It makes no sense at all while all the other ships are either gaining hull or armor in smaller bits but nothing compared to the hull nerf of the vargur. Does it really need that much nerfing? The overall EHP of the vargur is way less than the other ships. Can you not do that please?

Listen if you want to hate on a Minmatar ship then hate on the Wreathe or something. It just isnt right tbh.
Trespasser
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#396 - 2013-08-30 02:04:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Trespasser
The whole problem that i have with marauders, is that they were ment to be the top end PVE class of ship, The end all be all of ratting.

This never became a reality, as faction battleships out damage and in some cases out tank marauders.

I think holding a marauder in place in 0.0 is suicide - not many people use them anyway for the reasons above. The best and really only way to fix them would be to Give them most of the bonus's from the siege mod but forget the siege mod.

also we need to make them have more damage and more tank base - So lets take a paladin for example

Paladin

Role Bonus: 200%(+100%) bonus to large energy weapon damage, 30% shield, armor and hull resistances(no stacking penalty), Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25%

Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to capacitor capacity
7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret tracking

Marauder Skill Bonus:
25% bonus to repair amount of armor repair systems
4% bonus to all resistances per level


Slot layout: 7H, 4M, 8L(+1); 4 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 16500 PWG (+3000), 530 CPU (+30)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 5800 / 10000 / 6000 <-- changed all of them to better suit a marauder
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 8000(+2375) / 1000s (+76.1s) / 8 cap/s (+2)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 85 m/s(-20) / .119(-0.009) / 111665000(+6465000) / 18.42s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25(-50) / 50(-25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 100km / 120(+39) / 10
Sensor strength: 8 Radar
Signature radius: 420(-80)



Now Something like this would make people WANT to fly it for PVE, its powerful enough that people would use these in 0.0.

some will say it looks overpowered but it has 8 Sensor strength, so even a half noob blackbird pilot can perma jam this with 1 jammer...

Also i was thinking of maybe a vulnerability stat for it, Where say... player(not NPC) EW mods have a 25% bonus towards you.


All in all, this would make it a MASSIVELY AMAZING OVERPOWERED RATTINGSHIP.. but it would be useless in pvp.. and thats what marauders should be.
Theodoric Darkwind
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#397 - 2013-08-30 02:04:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Theodoric Darkwind
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Yes, this can be used in high-sec of course. You just get a weapon timer (requires security to be turned off though).

Do not underestimate the use of the bastion module, even for missions. The innate tank allows removal of tanking modules on fittings and the projection bonus helps a lot as well. I remember reaching 55-60km falloff on a Null Neutron Blaster Kronos on our internal test server Shocked

Only one bastion module may be fitted, but the resistance given don't stack, just like Damage Control. You can still fit one -with- a damage control though.


Highsec missions are the ONLY thing I see this module being useful for. The inability to receive remote reps = not usable in incursions. The "cannot move for the duration of the module cycle" = not usable in lowsec, nullsec or wormholes. And it now looks like you have balanced marauders around the expectation that they will use this module.

No offense, highsec mission runners didn't need this. IMHO leaivng the tank alone and increasing the damage output of marauders over other BSes would have been far more useful as you would still have your "ultimate carebearmobile" but it would also be usable by lowsec/nullsec mission runners, nullsec ratters, and even good in some classes of wormholes.

The only possible PvP use I could see for the Bastion module would be for some ASB/AAR gimmick fit designed to play station games in lowsec.
Cade Windstalker
#398 - 2013-08-30 02:10:27 UTC
Bullet Therapist wrote:
When I first saw this post I'll admit I was a little horrified, but I told myself I'd give it a couple of hours before I post anything. As time goes by I feel somewhat more acceptance to the idea. Some thoughts on the new bastion module and changes to the marauder hulls.

The bastion module is an interesting idea, and I like how ccp is trying something new by providing a way that people can hunker down in certain situations. Deciding to use the module in pvp situations is going to be a big decision though, because you're essentially forfeiting your ability to escape from a fight should the balance of it change sometime as it plays out. Its a big commitment, and a big drawback to the design, and it should be balanced with a powerful set of advantages. I hope that the omission of a sig rad bonus to large missiles was an oversight, though, it would be nice to see some equivalent feature for missile users.

As for the hulls themselves, I like the changes to powergrid, but I feel like the inclusion of another unbonused high slot isn't really necessary. My personal feeling is that the bonus to tractor beams should be removed completely. Marauders are never going to be as effective as a noctis. Putting that highslot back into lows or mids would be a much better choice, as players using a marauder for pvp are going to find that theres going to be a lot of pressure to fit cap booster etc. Leaving two free will let player use smarbombs, nosferatus, neuts, proble launchers, cloak etc just fine.

Also, marauders are already very light in terms of EHP. Reducing it even further is probably not the best choice. As it stands they're already very vulnerable to tornado camps in highsec. Compared to the tens of thousands of ehp these ships would be able to generate over the course of a fight where the dps incoming was at or less than the level of their tanks, a slightly stronger base ehp would be insignificant, and in a fleet fight it wouldn't do anything to improve their survivability against being primaried. What it would do is to balance out the profit threshold of a tornado camp somewhat, and give players coming out of a station who are being targeted precious seconds to decide what to do.

Summing it up, I think its a good start, but theres a lot of work left to be done to get it right, and achieving a balance ship that people are going to want to use is going to be tough.

Edit: Idk Im feeling a little wishy washy about the module. Part of me feels like id rather see a very strong hull with some of the dawbacks of the module, but without having to use it. That would give people a few more options as far as fitting goes, while keeping a ship that feels less like a mobile coffin.


So, first off yay for well reasoned reactions.

Second if you check the tracking bonus is gone, per Rise's earlier comment that neither were supposed to get a damage application bonus.

I believe the tractor-beam bonus is being left in because some people do use it and it has absolutely zero effect on PvP or anyone who chooses not to use it. It doesn't seem to be factored into overall balance.

EHP doesn't seem to be going down very much especially if you have tank fitted and turned on. If you get caught without your tank on then that's sort of of your own fault. If you get caught by Tornadoes you can always pop Bastion and hope they don't have enough to kill you with it running. The ship hulls themselves don't factor into anyone's profit margins and with these changes you should be more able to fit them to run missions effectively at low cost without resorting to modules that will get you ganked.

As to the module, the only drawbacks are the immobility, inability to be remote assisted, and timer. Moving any of these to the ship isn't practical and buffing the ships risks pushing them into the realm of overpowered.

Tzel Mayon wrote:

Incursion Impact:


In most incursion fleets, there is a significant need for sniper boats. All of the current sniper battleships will be set aside for these new Siege Battleships, and the SP training time will be make incursions even more elitist, and anti-new player.


Instead of getting frigates into high level incursions, (which I think is very much needed to: engage new players, player retention, etc); CCP is again raising the SP bar, and making it even harder for New Players to engage in a great Feature.

One more time:

Create Marauder / Frigate synergies to exemplify the "Marauder Hit and Run Harassment Meme."

Lots of options here. But, a battleship supporting frigates is such a freakin' awesome idea, right???

1. Frigate MWD Fleet bonuses.
2. Frigate Racial Fleet Bonuses in a Marauder Fleet.
3. Marauder Micro-Jump Portal Generator that paints ships 200km away, and allow frigate pilots to activate the portal and jump 10km away from the target that was 200km away.

Bring New Players into the Awesomeness! Make it so everyone is looking for new frigate pilots! Let Marauders be the tool that does it!


The current elitist view of incursions is entirely the result of the player-base, not CCP. You very much can do incursions in T1 battleships with reasonable efficacy. That most of the major groups don't accept them with any regularity is their decision to prefer isk efficiency over being inclusive. If you want incursions to be more inclusive then be more inclusive in who you take on your fleets. A higher SP player is always going to be preferable to a lower SP one.

Besides that you seem to be trying to turn these into something they currently do not resemble in any way that is specifically geared toward a single aspect of the game (incursions) rather than having any sort of application outside that. These are not command ships, that was last month's thread.
Pyus
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#399 - 2013-08-30 02:13:19 UTC
I rarely comment on these threads but just want to say that I'm really impressed with the creativity of this change. Looking forward to what comes out of it.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#400 - 2013-08-30 02:13:58 UTC
Theodoric Darkwind wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Yes, this can be used in high-sec of course. You just get a weapon timer (requires security to be turned off though).

Do not underestimate the use of the bastion module, even for missions. The innate tank allows removal of tanking modules on fittings and the projection bonus helps a lot as well. I remember reaching 55-60km falloff on a Null Neutron Blaster Kronos on our internal test server Shocked

Only one bastion module may be fitted, but the resistance given don't stack, just like Damage Control. You can still fit one -with- a damage control though.


Highsec missions are the ONLY thing I see this module being useful for. The inability to receive remote reps = not usable in incursions. The "cannot move for the duration of the module cycle" = not usable in lowsec, nullsec or wormholes. And it now looks like you have balanced marauders around the expectation that they will use this module.

No offense, highsec mission runners didn't need this. IMHO leaivng the tank alone and increasing the damage output of marauders over other BSes would have been far more useful as you would still have your "ultimate carebearmobile" but it would also be usable by lowsec/nullsec mission runners, nullsec ratters, and even good in some classes of wormholes.

The only possible PvP use I could see for the Bastion module would be for some ASB/AAR gimmick fit designed to play station games in lowsec.

To be honest, I think that it could even work in incursions. The huge tanking bonuses the mod gives will make it so a dual rep/XLSB ship should be able to tank the incursion rats for the 10 second attention span they have (most times). Of course that's a lot of risk hoping that they don't go ******* nuts on one specific person and want to murder them with a singlemindedness they rarely (though often enough) show.