These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

First post First post First post
Author
Vaeragoth
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#401 - 2013-08-30 02:15:13 UTC
When will I be able to inject the Bastion Skill!?!? I fly a Kronos and the bastion skill is in line with my current Neural Remap, however I was planning to change my remap just as soon as I finished training Minmatar Battleship V and I don't really want to wait because I don't have anything else that I particularly want to train under perception and willpower
MisterNick
The Sagan Clan
#402 - 2013-08-30 02:15:19 UTC
Shocked Shut up and have my babies!

"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom."

Tzel Mayon
Perkone
Caldari State
#403 - 2013-08-30 02:16:04 UTC
Theodoric Darkwind wrote:
[quote=CCP Ytterbium]
Highsec missions are the ONLY thing I see this module being useful for. The inability to receive remote reps = not usable in incursions. .



I think the local rep boost, the massive bonuses to range, etc, would make these perfect in incursions for ranged DPS.

The logistics fleet would be swarming combat, as usual), while the Marauders would be way out of range.

They go into siege mode, volley a few times, MJD out, Siege again,Volley, Rinse and Repeat.


These would change incursions so that all of the other ranged battleships would be "elite-asized" out. I think by doing this CCP is making the barrier to entry far more SP intense for new players.

Not a good change for Incursions.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#404 - 2013-08-30 02:22:03 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
What about converting tactical logistics reconfiguration to a percentage reduction in fuel use, adding a fuel bay to marauders, using heavy water as originally considered?

It would be nice to have a better range bonus for tractors, along with tractor speed and salvager cycle time or salvage chance when the bastion is active. A marauder could have the same range as a Noctis without being too efficient since the Noctis has more tractors, more salvagers, and is more likely to have salvage tackle fitted. If the marauder can't salvage the wrecks created at maximum range while en-bastion-ed, that kinda reduces the attractiveness of this ship for PvE. Even a 200% bonus to range will still make salvaging in a marauder more attractive :)


at the very least I think they need a speed bonus on the tractors, compared to the nocits it just doesn't seem like it is worth salvaging at all in a marauder. I create wrecks far faster than I can tractor them, even if they are all in range.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Naomi Anthar
#405 - 2013-08-30 02:23:12 UTC
And that is what i'm talking about. Welcome back Ytterbium.

At least there is no joke like Kronos with better cap than Paladin. (talking about Deimos vs Zealot)

That's right - properly balanced cap. Laser boat gets straightforward better cap amount and regen. NO GALLENTE LOVE.

+1 to this.

Now Ytterbium i wait for promised buffs to Phantasm (and hopefully also extremly terrible succubus) - i like those spiky ships. Need some love fast. ;)
Tzel Mayon
Perkone
Caldari State
#406 - 2013-08-30 02:23:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tzel Mayon
Cade Windstalker wrote:

The current elitist view of incursions is entirely the result of the player-base, not CCP. You very much can do incursions in T1 battleships with reasonable efficacy. That most of the major groups don't accept them with any regularity is their decision to prefer isk efficiency over being inclusive. If you want incursions to be more inclusive then be more inclusive in who you take on your fleets. A higher SP player is always going to be preferable to a lower SP one.

Besides that you seem to be trying to turn these into something they currently do not resemble in any way that is specifically geared toward a single aspect of the game (incursions) rather than having any sort of application outside that. These are not command ships, that was last month's thread.



I do understand the point of isk/hour ...

But, by having Marauders supporting frigates, like being able to micro-jump-portal them to the front lines, the SP barrier is broken....

That was the point of my entire suggestion.

CCP WANTS to redefine the Marauders, so your objection that I am turning them into something they are not, and making them more in line with CCP's "Vision" of them .... well, yeah, that's exactly what I am trying to support.

Allow frigate pilots and Marauders to have awesome synergy in hit and run raiding / marauding operations.

What is so wrong with this?

Frigates that can be pushed out instantly 200km away in the middle of an incursion fleet would be STUPID awesome. The PVP ramifications are INCREDIBLE.

Tournaments would be VERY awesome ....

New players would be able to participate with MUCH lower SP.

It would be a beautiful world.

"Rebalancing" isn't just about ships, it is also about "Roles" .... and the "Role" of the frigate pilot could be substantially increased if Marauders were used to support them in "Marauding" tactics.
Damage Sponge
Team Bullet Sponge
#407 - 2013-08-30 02:28:11 UTC
Few Question about the about entering "Bastion Mode"

Does this act similarly to the Siege module in that all previous locked ships will be lost and you need to re-target them once activated?

Also will deployed drones be lost similar to Carriers when they activate the Triage module before recalling their drones?

Too possibly keep the Tractor/Salvage theme going, A roll bonus to Salvager cycle time say 25-50% might once again help Marauders compete with the Noctis.

Only comment on the Ship rebalancing would be to keep the 90% Web bonus on the Kronos and possibly change the Paladin bonus to a 37.5 tracking bonus to help with Beam Lasors, but I guess this depends if the Paladin is designed to be a Beam or Pulse fit Hull.
Cade Windstalker
#408 - 2013-08-30 02:29:02 UTC
m0jo wrote:
My only concern here is the vargur losing 1000 hull. Why? It makes no sense at all while all the other ships are either gaining hull or armor in smaller bits but nothing compared to the hull nerf of the vargur. Does it really need that much nerfing? The overall EHP of the vargur is way less than the other ships. Can you not do that please?

Listen if you want to hate on a Minmatar ship then hate on the Wreathe or something. It just isnt right tbh.


Probably because of how powerful the Vargur resists are, especially with Bastion.

2 CN Invuls, a DC2, T2 EM Resist rig, and Bastion gives you EM: 84.8% Thermal: 81.95% Kinetic: 84.5% Explosive 87.1%. Combine that with shield boosts and the Vargur is going to be ridiculously hard to kill.

Trespasser wrote:

All in all, this would make it a MASSIVELY AMAZING OVERPOWERED RATTINGSHIP.. but it would be useless in pvp.. and thats what marauders should be.


Overpowered is not good for any aspect of the game, even PvE. Plus what you're talking about may be countered by ECM but is completely over-powered in all other respects and is far from useless in PvP as a whole.

Theodoric Darkwind wrote:
Highsec missions are the ONLY thing I see this module being useful for. The inability to receive remote reps = not usable in incursions. The "cannot move for the duration of the module cycle" = not usable in lowsec, nullsec or wormholes. And it now looks like you have balanced marauders around the expectation that they will use this module.

No offense, highsec mission runners didn't need this. IMHO leaivng the tank alone and increasing the damage output of marauders over other BSes would have been far more useful as you would still have your "ultimate carebearmobile" but it would also be usable by lowsec/nullsec mission runners, nullsec ratters, and even good in some classes of wormholes.

The only possible PvP use I could see for the Bastion module would be for some ASB/AAR gimmick fit designed to play station games in lowsec.


You're not being creative enough. I've already been talking with incursion and WH people both of whom are thinking this has a lot of potential for both areas. The massive local tank means the ship can likely be used in at least Vanguard Incursions even without Logi support. The same applies to C4 wormholes if you're willing to take the risk of being caught with your Bastion up. If you have any sort of backup though this isn't much of a problem, ditto for lower end Null sites.

CCP's handy balancing chart says that it's more likely Pirate Battleships will end up being higher damage T1 ships but without the T2 resists and may lose some of their utility in the mix.

More specifically I wouldn't expect these to be PvP focused T2 Battleships, that's what the Black-Ops will likely turn into (at least in part) when they get revamped and split into two different ships.
Flyinghotpocket
Doomheim
#409 - 2013-08-30 02:32:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Flyinghotpocket
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


PALADIN
  • Signature radius: 420(-80)

  • GOLEM
  • Signature radius: 450(-125)

  • KRONOS
  • Signature radius: 420(-80)


  • VARGUR

  • Signature radius: 360(-65)



  • sig on the vargur....

    im tired of winmatar online

    Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro

    Cade Windstalker
    #410 - 2013-08-30 02:35:32 UTC
    Tzel Mayon wrote:

    I do understand the point of isk/hour ...

    But, by having Marauders supporting frigates, like being able to micro-jump-portal them to the front lines, the SP barrier is broken....

    That was the point of my entire suggestion.

    CCP WANTS to redefine the Marauders, so your objection that I am turning them into something they are not, and making them more in line with CCP's "Vision" of them .... well, yeah, that's exactly what I am trying to support.

    Allow frigate pilots and Marauders to have awesome synergy in hit and run raiding / marauding operations.

    What is so wrong with this?

    Frigates that can be pushed out instantly 200km away in the middle of an incursion fleet would be STUPID awesome. The PVP ramifications are INCREDIBLE.

    Tournaments would be VERY awesome ....

    New players would be able to participate with MUCH lower SP.

    It would be a beautiful world.

    "Rebalancing" isn't just about ships, it is also about "Roles" .... and the "Role" of the frigate pilot could be substantially increased if Marauders were used to support them in "Marauding" tactics.


    What does your suggestion do that I can't already do outside of Incursions with a cloaky frigate and probes?

    In incursions why would I bring a mob of frigates over a couple of long-range fit Battleships? Per ship they're not going to deal more damage, they die faster, and besides which very little spawns out that far anyway.

    Never mind that the SP requirements for a T2 tanked Battleship and a T2 tanked Assault Frigate aren't that far apart since the AFs take a lot better fitting skills to fit effectively.

    This falls under the heading of "cool concept in theory that completely breaks down when it's introduced to reality". Making ISK in this game is supposed to take a bit of SP and making the best ISK requires investing a good amount of ISK and time and effort into it, hence Incursions.

    Also, just a side note, Eve Uni still runs incursions with fairly low SP pilots that the "elite" groups won't take.
    Nolak Ataru
    Imperial Shipment
    Amarr Empire
    #411 - 2013-08-30 02:36:24 UTC
    Can... can I kiss you?
    Aralez
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #412 - 2013-08-30 02:36:46 UTC
    Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:
    Anyone else thinking double XLASB Vargur with this will be OP.. like.. Dreadnought sized tank.


    *evil grin* absolutely not! shame on you.

    I do wonder if this could be usable in a wh?
    Arthur Aihaken
    CODE.d
    #413 - 2013-08-30 02:38:03 UTC
    Tzel Mayon wrote:
    How would you like your camouflage sir, practical? or Gaudy?
    :p


    Something other than practically gaudy, how's that? ;)

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

    Naomi Anthar
    #414 - 2013-08-30 02:44:06 UTC
    Flyinghotpocket wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:


    PALADIN
  • Signature radius: 420(-80)

  • GOLEM
  • Signature radius: 450(-125)

  • KRONOS
  • Signature radius: 420(-80)


  • VARGUR

  • Signature radius: 360(-65)



  • sig on the vargur....

    im tired of winmatar online


    I though everyone got used to obvious : That Minmatar ships must be most versatile, fastest , most agile along with lowest signatue ... why ? Because we are Minmatars. What price we pay for this advantage ? We don't we are minmatars.

    It may sound like sarcasm , but actually i'm starting to live with it :<. I always though for some advantage there must be drawback but Minnies and gallente also are exception. Just advantages.

    Tho this balance pass is surprisingly good. Paladin cap will be retardely insane. So for first time i must say amarr ship will get it's own advantage.

    I will say even more i'm pleased with overral approach in this topic : Amarr GOT something NOONE got. Yeah i still don't believe i say this. Usually other factions get amarr stuff as free bonus .
    Unezka Turigahl
    Det Som Engang Var
    #415 - 2013-08-30 02:55:42 UTC
    weird.

    Now give freighters siege mode to cut down on posts about them getting bumped/ganked.
    Tzel Mayon
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #416 - 2013-08-30 03:00:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Tzel Mayon
    To answer the questions why I believe Marauders, (and what CCP has already stated), should be optimized for Hit and Run Raider/Marauder tactics: In short, create frigate synergy with Marauders. This accomplishes CCP's goal in nearly every way, AND fulfills a LOT of CCP's other goals. Remove the tank bonuses of siege mode altogether--this contradicts the "hit and run" philosophy. Make getting into and out of Siege mode faster. Make transitioning a disruptable action. Siege mode should give DPS and Range, or Tracking Bonuses, Explosion Radius bonuses, Falloff, etc. "Hit AND RUN" = Harassment Marauder.

    Give Marauders short range Micro-Jump-Portal Generators, with Cyno Painters, to get Frigates/Destroyers to the front lines instantly, or give them Frigate/Destroyer MWD Fleet Bonuses --- ANYTHING to get frigates engaged with battleships without being vaporized in the process, (an MWD Sig Reduction Fleet bonus perhaps. but that would make cruisers have a decided disadvantage over frigates.)

    Cade Windstalker wrote:

    In incursions why would I bring a mob of frigates over a couple of long-range fit Battleships? Per ship they're not going to deal more damage, they die faster, and besides which very little spawns out that far anyway.


    Frigates wouldn't die faster in Incursions if they got to the front lines instantaneously. Besides, the concept is to increase the "depth" of Eve Online, to utilize more fleet tactics, to try to get every role engaged if possible. Where there are frigates, there can be destroyers, where there are destroyers, cruisers, etc.

    Electronic Attack Frigates in incursions, faction warfare, and massive null sec fights would be really fun. But, more to my original point: Marauders having awesome synergy with frigates would incentivize null sec corps to bring a LOT more frigates to their conflicts!


    Cade Windstalker wrote:

    What does your suggestion do that I can't already do outside of Incursions with a cloaky frigate and probes?


    1. Acceleration gates are often problematic for probes in both faction warfare plexes, and incursions. Warping to targets on the other side is well, difficult(?) :p , which makes buzzards, et al, very difficult to use in this cotext.

    2. Probing down targets in an incursion is time dependent, whereas a jump-portal-generator and painter are /tactical/ solutions that can be used for on-grid targets that don't need to be probed down.



    Cade Windstalker wrote:

    Never mind that the SP requirements for a T2 tanked Battleship and a T2 tanked Assault Frigate aren't that far apart since the AFs take a lot better fitting skills to fit effectively.


    Wha??? I wish that were true! But why narrow this down to assault frigates? I was actually thinking Electronic Warfare Frigates, tbh. frigate on frigate/destroyer/cruiser logistics, Interdictors, destroyers, etc.

    When I started playing Eve, I NEVER wanted to fly battleships, /perhaps/ a command ship.... But All I wanted was to be an awesome frigate pilot.

    ... Until I found out I /had/ to specialize in battleships for Level IV missions to make enough ISK to pay for my addiction to getting blown up in my frigates. :)


    As a frigate pilot, I want /way/ more opportunities for employment... I want there to be a a GOOD reason to bring frigates to a massive battleship, and especially capital ship fights.... Marauders with synergy bonuses with frigates accomplish this! This adds a great depth to game mechanics in pretty much every area of the game. (Okay, perhaps not mining, or exploration, or shipping, or ..) :p

    Cade Windstalker wrote:

    Making ISK in this game is supposed to take a bit of SP and making the best ISK requires investing a good amount of ISK and time and effort into it, hence Incursions.


    This is /complete/ crap.

    ISK acquisition in Eve, (explicitly stated /many/ times by CCP, and others), is about the cooperation and exploitation of allies. This is how brand new pilots can actually make decent ISK in faction warfare. "Join a corp to make ISK! But trust no one!"


    NONE of my recommendations about the new Marauders having Synergy with Frigates to have awesome hit and run mechanics in Eve had ANYTHING to do with making ISK. It was just to make the game /funner/ to play, and more ENJOYABLE for new players.

    (Not everyone plays for the ISK.)

    A "Siege Mode" Marauder is self-contradicting to the idea of "Harassment and Raiding and Marauding" if that Siege mode gives bonuses to Tank, but not so much to DPS and Range.
    Bienator II
    madmen of the skies
    #417 - 2013-08-30 03:01:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
    here a question: after this is released, why would anybody fly something else for pve? Right now you see everything, T1 BS, faction BS, some machs here and there etc. You could create the "T3 effect" again where there was no point to fly anything else beside tengus for most pve scenarios.

    kudos for the pvp roles however, looking forward to form voltron and MJD around.

    how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

    Ravasta Helugo
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #418 - 2013-08-30 03:04:36 UTC
    Rise Paladins! Our Capacitor will blot out the SUN!
    Battle Cube
    Cube Collective
    #419 - 2013-08-30 03:05:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Battle Cube
    i do not like these changes.

    i don't really know where to start...

    i guess for any situation i just dont see this ship being better then anything currently in place. The bonuses are range and tank while imobile - but in any given situation i already have ships with enough range and enough tank that will most likely out -effective - dps this one (esp in the case as the vargur)

    i suppose it doesnt help that i dont want to put an MJD on it, i just dont want to.

    this ship seems almost foolish. Why use it? Great tank? it seems like one would go out solo with it, tank a lot, then die due to imobility or being scrammed as soon as you come out of bastion.

    So its bad in group pvp, it may be useful kiting in small gang pvp, its not good in L4s or incursions, so maybe L5s? i dont know. I am just not happy with this....


    i mean, this takes a shitton of skills and is expensive, why give it such a niche role that people wont want to use it? i dont know, its like the old target painter bonus on the bellicose - at least the bellicose is easy and cheap to get into.

    I want something more from the ship that takes probably the most isk+sp that is allowed in highsec....

    i would have been happy if all they did was increase the PG and left the rest the same.... If you want to be this radical, the dps boost should be added to bastion mode. And why you gotta take away my drones? i like not taking years to kill PVE frigates.....thats just a smack in the face. Its not like they give use damage boost


    for changes....

    possible a damage bonus to bastion mode to make all its many negatives worth it so it actually has a place against current ships that can simply get into their effective range and have enough tank and receive non local reps....

    possibly remove the 'no remote assistance, eware invulnerability'

    Possibly....give the NON-bastion mode something so its not just "not bastion mode", like maybe not nerfing the buffer even more then it was before? I like the idea of the extra high slot - you could see rediculous spider tanks possibly (non-bastion mode) but the reduced non-bastion tank sucks. reduced mobility sucks too - i hate the idea that you want MJD so you literally nerf it to try to force poeple to put a mjd on it.... Yeah...you dont want it to have a specific use....except it has to have an MJD and it has to have a bastion module....but other then that you can use it for exactly and only what it is specifically designed for.
    Siddicus
    Nation of Sidd
    #420 - 2013-08-30 03:09:16 UTC
    Bienator II wrote:
    here a question: after this is released, why would anybody fly something else for pve? .



    Because the skill requirement to fly these ships maybe?