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So this is it for eve, is this the future, is it?

First post
Author
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#481 - 2013-08-30 18:49:22 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:
The main problem lies in dependencies. Let's follow the poco example - groups that use pocos:

- Nullsec sov-holders
- WH holders

Now, let's cut the EHP and reinforce timer from pocos.

Group 1: Gauge the net worth of a customs office. If the amount of money it brings exceeds the cost of replacing it due to raids/effort defending it against raids, keep it. They likely have logistics in place to replace it easily. All in all, they would not be affected all that much - if anything, targets would run dry because the locals would stop replacing the pocos.

Group 2: Using local planets as a source of POS fuel components makes fuel logistics easier. With lower EHP/no rf timer, it would become possible for a small group to knock out said fuel component production easily in time the owner can't do anything about it. Holders would have to either ship in gantries + base components or resort to just shipping fuel in, increasing cost of holding a POS and the logistics effort. Given wormhole mass/time limitations and local reliance on POSes (equivalent of Null stations) makes such change shaft wormholers.

Are nullsec holders hurt (intended result)? Not much. Are wormhole holders hurt? Probably more.

Aaand pretty much the entire "infrastructure" thing is full of such examples. Things do need to change, but CCP needs to tread carefully not to flip the table completely.

One thing that should be done in the first place is not nerf, but buff sov holding. Heresy, you say? Well, I say not - make space worth holding on to - and raiding. Such changes are already progressing with rental empires making a return, but we need more. We need mountains of ISK - make it worth saying "let's go raid nullsec, we'll disrupt their operations and steal their candy."

Once you have a resource actually worth defending against a few people, you have someone defending it - and subsequently a fight.



No. Stop. First paragraph.

Highsec uses pocos, and npc null uses pocos and so does lowsec.

Everyone uses pocos.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Ressiv
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#482 - 2013-08-30 19:04:22 UTC
JinSanJong wrote:


this is a game btw, just pointing that out. So shall we now put in the eve trailers. "Eve is no longer a sandbox, your game is controlled by others sorry, if you want to go into nullsec, just kiss someones ass, pay stupid amount of isk for even the worse systems, these are thew new microtransactions, oh but we still expect your monthly fee. Play on one server, but remember the players that have been playing for years have control of everything and you wont have the same level playing field as they did when only 3000 ppl ws online"

i mean lets be honest here...whilst we are at it.


Roughly translates to: boo-hoo .. whaaaahaaaaahaaaaa ... snif snif snooorrrrr.

Or perhaps: I'm kinda bummed that I would need a shitload of planning and hard work in order to even start trying to nibble away at their power. Now HTFU and go be productive or something.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#483 - 2013-08-30 19:05:05 UTC
Ressiv wrote:
JinSanJong wrote:


this is a game btw, just pointing that out. So shall we now put in the eve trailers. "Eve is no longer a sandbox, your game is controlled by others sorry, if you want to go into nullsec, just kiss someones ass, pay stupid amount of isk for even the worse systems, these are thew new microtransactions, oh but we still expect your monthly fee. Play on one server, but remember the players that have been playing for years have control of everything and you wont have the same level playing field as they did when only 3000 ppl ws online"

i mean lets be honest here...whilst we are at it.

Roughly translates to: boo-hoo .. whaaaahaaaaahaaaaa ... snif snif snooorrrrr.

Or perhaps: I'm kinda bummed that I would need a shitload of planning and hard work in order to even start trying to nibble away at their power. Now HTFU and go be productive or something.

Shoot cynoships

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#484 - 2013-08-30 19:16:29 UTC
JinSanJong wrote:


this is a game btw, just pointing that out. So shall we now put in the eve trailers. "Eve is no longer a sandbox, your game is controlled by others sorry, if you want to go into nullsec, just kiss someones ass, pay stupid amount of isk for even the worse systems, these are thew new microtransactions, oh but we still expect your monthly fee. Play on one server, but remember the players that have been playing for years have control of everything and you wont have the same level playing field as they did when only 3000 ppl ws online"

i mean lets be honest here...whilst we are at it.

You realise that even if you were to take sov on your own, you still have to pay a monthly bill right? It's not free to hold sov. You just pay it to NPCs rather than players. At least renting from players, your sov comes with a larger group who's best interests lie in keeping you safe. You think concord comes to save you if you take your own sov and you get attacked?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#485 - 2013-08-30 20:04:42 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:


No. Stop. First paragraph.

Highsec uses pocos, and npc null uses pocos and so does lowsec.

Everyone uses pocos.


This tbh, POCOs actually provide a very large proportion of our day to day income and we're pretty much exclusively a lowsec alliance.

Its not so much that equating all structures to POCOs is wrong, its that people*cough infinityziona cough* do it while very obviously having no idea about how POCOs work or about how they affect the people who use them.

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome

Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#486 - 2013-08-30 20:21:52 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


Sure they should. Disrupt. Not annihilate or anything, but a small gang should definitely be able to harass and disrupt a large alliance.
I guess it depends on your definition of disrupt (To throw into confusion or disorder). Harass is fine... a single player can do that.



Well, considering a poco is passive income and has a bay to which you access and pull your materials out, making sure it is inaccessible by having it in reinforced mode is by my definition, pretty damned disruptive.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#487 - 2013-08-30 20:23:07 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
You'd be surprised how easy it is to ignore a mechanic in this game.
You can ignore the game mechanics of 'reinforce' to destroy a POCO? Harry would be interested.



Yes I can. I can simply choose another one. Or attack it AFTER it has come out of RF mode.

I am not forced to do any one specific thing in this game.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#488 - 2013-08-30 20:27:42 UTC
Darek Castigatus wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


No. Stop. First paragraph.

Highsec uses pocos, and npc null uses pocos and so does lowsec.

Everyone uses pocos.


This tbh, POCOs actually provide a very large proportion of our day to day income and we're pretty much exclusively a lowsec alliance.

Its not so much that equating all structures to POCOs is wrong, its that people*cough infinityziona cough* do it while very obviously having no idea about how POCOs work or about how they affect the people who use them.



I unfortunately am terrible at PI so I tend to have to pay people in highsec, lowsec, npc null, just to get my crap out to market.

I never step foot in sov space.

Oh, and I hate Shadow Cartel, I cannot harass anyone on the minmatar pipe (see what I did there you junkies?) without being chased back to my lowsec home of Schoorasana.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#489 - 2013-08-30 22:56:34 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
JinSanJong wrote:


this is a game btw, just pointing that out. So shall we now put in the eve trailers. "Eve is no longer a sandbox, your game is controlled by others sorry, if you want to go into nullsec, just kiss someones ass, pay stupid amount of isk for even the worse systems, these are thew new microtransactions, oh but we still expect your monthly fee. Play on one server, but remember the players that have been playing for years have control of everything and you wont have the same level playing field as they did when only 3000 ppl ws online"

i mean lets be honest here...whilst we are at it.

You realise that even if you were to take sov on your own, you still have to pay a monthly bill right? It's not free to hold sov. You just pay it to NPCs rather than players. At least renting from players, your sov comes with a larger group who's best interests lie in keeping you safe. You think concord comes to save you if you take your own sov and you get attacked?

Maybe it should if you are a ~small alliance~

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#490 - 2013-08-30 23:49:05 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Darek Castigatus wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


No. Stop. First paragraph.

Highsec uses pocos, and npc null uses pocos and so does lowsec.

Everyone uses pocos.


This tbh, POCOs actually provide a very large proportion of our day to day income and we're pretty much exclusively a lowsec alliance.

Its not so much that equating all structures to POCOs is wrong, its that people*cough infinityziona cough* do it while very obviously having no idea about how POCOs work or about how they affect the people who use them.



I unfortunately am terrible at PI so I tend to have to pay people in highsec, lowsec, npc null, just to get my crap out to market.

I never step foot in sov space.

Oh, and I hate Shadow Cartel, I cannot harass anyone on the minmatar pipe (see what I did there you junkies?) without being chased back to my lowsec home of Schoorasana.


Since its never been me doing the chasing I'm afraid i couldnt comment :P

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome

Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#491 - 2013-08-30 23:50:44 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Trii Seo wrote:
-snip-



No. Stop. First paragraph.

Highsec uses pocos, and npc null uses pocos and so does lowsec.

Everyone uses pocos.


Yes, they do, and I skipped them because I actually don't have much experience in living in lowsec/hisec. Most of my time I've spent in null, spare for occasional slumming around in wormholes.

Using common sense, such change wouldn't affect hisec much since logistics-wise it's easy to replace things - not sure cost-wise. In lowsec it'll hit the "little guy" more than the big one.

In any way, I just dropped it as an example of how such a change would affect something else more than the intended target.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph

Andracin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#492 - 2013-08-31 02:16:50 UTC
Renters are usually a hog pog of greedy unorganized corporations who neither care about each other or share intel properly. The land lords generally are not going to CTA for even 50 guys roaming through their renter space 20+ jumps away or someone AFK cloaking to suddenly appear and snatch a ratter or annomaly runner. I see no problem here, just lots of kill mails....

If the blue renter donut makes you really mad grab your favorite cloaking ship and head for the renter space nearest you. Take some friends, play asset denial, make the locals absolutely misrable. Extort isk out of them in return for being left alone, return and shake them down when they forget.

Sandbox does not mean the moment your mommy lets you loose you get free access to your own private corner. Sometimes you have to kick sand in the other kids eyes or bonk him on the head with your shovel. Darwin be with you all.....
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#493 - 2013-08-31 02:41:30 UTC
Andracin wrote:
Renters are usually a hog pog of greedy unorganized corporations who neither care about each other or share intel properly. The land lords generally are not going to CTA for even 50 guys roaming through their renter space 20+ jumps away or someone AFK cloaking to suddenly appear and snatch a ratter or annomaly runner. I see no problem here, just lots of kill mails....

If the blue renter donut makes you really mad grab your favorite cloaking ship and head for the renter space nearest you. Take some friends, play asset denial, make the locals absolutely misrable. Extort isk out of them in return for being left alone, return and shake them down when they forget.

Hmm, you see
Andracin wrote:
Take some friends

Dirty blobber

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#494 - 2013-08-31 08:54:18 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I didn't say I was a good PvP'r nor did I say I was a full time PvP'r. I have a okay K/D ratio for solo pvp'r, actually its pretty damn good for a solo PvP'r. My last PvP sortie I killed 32 nullbears for 2 losses. Get out of your blobs and go try solo pvp in billion isk ships without jumpcloning and lets see how you do. If you can beat my 32 for 2 I'll give you 10 billion isk, happy to transfer it to Chribba if you like. Fraps it I'll be interested to see how you do in null all alone.

Hey, I'm not trying to insult you. But you appears to have only had 2 months of PvP in the past 3 years, which I would say excludes you from being classed as a PvPer I have kills on my KBs, most not solo, but I'm a trader. I don't go spouting off claiming to be the example of PvP.

Infinity Ziona wrote:
I disagree with your argument on POCO's.

That's great. It doesn't change the fact that that's how it's balanced, and it doesn't make you any less wrong.

I took a 3 year break and came back to EvE two months ago.

This thread is about balance. Claiming its perfect because its the way it is is ignoring the purpose of the thread.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#495 - 2013-08-31 09:01:16 UTC
Darek Castigatus wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


No. Stop. First paragraph.

Highsec uses pocos, and npc null uses pocos and so does lowsec.

Everyone uses pocos.


This tbh, POCOs actually provide a very large proportion of our day to day income and we're pretty much exclusively a lowsec alliance.

Its not so much that equating all structures to POCOs is wrong, its that people*cough infinityziona cough* do it while very obviously having no idea about how POCOs work or about how they affect the people who use them.

POCOs were an example only. I don't really care about them. As I stated I am not here asking for changes I am saying something is wrong here. Any changes would have to be brainstormed, tested, evaluated by CCP.

What I am saying is there is too much reliance on CCP in NULLSEC. I have said nothing about low - quite likely the most dangerous space in EvE.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#496 - 2013-08-31 11:54:04 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I didn't say I was a good PvP'r nor did I say I was a full time PvP'r. I have a okay K/D ratio for solo pvp'r, actually its pretty damn good for a solo PvP'r. My last PvP sortie I killed 32 nullbears for 2 losses. Get out of your blobs and go try solo pvp in billion isk ships without jumpcloning and lets see how you do. If you can beat my 32 for 2 I'll give you 10 billion isk, happy to transfer it to Chribba if you like. Fraps it I'll be interested to see how you do in null all alone.

Hey, I'm not trying to insult you. But you appears to have only had 2 months of PvP in the past 3 years, which I would say excludes you from being classed as a PvPer I have kills on my KBs, most not solo, but I'm a trader. I don't go spouting off claiming to be the example of PvP.

Infinity Ziona wrote:
I disagree with your argument on POCO's.

That's great. It doesn't change the fact that that's how it's balanced, and it doesn't make you any less wrong.

I took a 3 year break and came back to EvE two months ago.

This thread is about balance. Claiming its perfect because its the way it is is ignoring the purpose of the thread.

How is that ignoring the purpose. If this thread is about balance, and I think it's balanced as it is, then I'm for no change, and still in line with the thread. Oh, or is this one of those "You disagree with me, thus you are wrong, and misunderstand everything".
Maybe not going away for 3 years would improve your skills and make you realise it's not actually that hard to hassle null sec players alone.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#497 - 2013-08-31 16:29:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Darek Castigatus
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Darek Castigatus wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


No. Stop. First paragraph.

Highsec uses pocos, and npc null uses pocos and so does lowsec.

Everyone uses pocos.


This tbh, POCOs actually provide a very large proportion of our day to day income and we're pretty much exclusively a lowsec alliance.

Its not so much that equating all structures to POCOs is wrong, its that people*cough infinityziona cough* do it while very obviously having no idea about how POCOs work or about how they affect the people who use them.

POCOs were an example only. I don't really care about them. As I stated I am not here asking for changes I am saying something is wrong here. Any changes would have to be brainstormed, tested, evaluated by CCP.

What I am saying is there is too much reliance on CCP in NULLSEC. I have said nothing about low - quite likely the most dangerous space in EvE.


If you're trying to support your arguement do it with things you actually know something about then, would save you from looking like a complete idiot. You might also want to avoid mindlessly saying 'THINGS ARE WRONG!!111!!!' with no evidence to back it up and no suggestions as to how the wrong things could be fixed, this also makes you appear like a complete idiot.

All I've seen from you so far is an endless parade of shifting goalposts, ignoring evidence when it contradicts your views and a complete unwillingess to listen to anyone who doesnt support you one hundred percent. I hate to belabour the point but this also makes you look a complete idiot.

so far you're 0 for 3, care to try again?

EDIT - Also what Lucas said in post 496.

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#498 - 2013-08-31 18:17:51 UTC
Darek Castigatus wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Darek Castigatus wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


No. Stop. First paragraph.

Highsec uses pocos, and npc null uses pocos and so does lowsec.

Everyone uses pocos.


This tbh, POCOs actually provide a very large proportion of our day to day income and we're pretty much exclusively a lowsec alliance.

Its not so much that equating all structures to POCOs is wrong, its that people*cough infinityziona cough* do it while very obviously having no idea about how POCOs work or about how they affect the people who use them.

POCOs were an example only. I don't really care about them. As I stated I am not here asking for changes I am saying something is wrong here. Any changes would have to be brainstormed, tested, evaluated by CCP.

What I am saying is there is too much reliance on CCP in NULLSEC. I have said nothing about low - quite likely the most dangerous space in EvE.


If you're trying to support your arguement do it with things you actually know something about then, would save you from looking like a complete idiot. You might also want to avoid mindlessly saying 'THINGS ARE WRONG!!111!!!' with no evidence to back it up and no suggestions as to how the wrong things could be fixed, this also makes you appear like a complete idiot.

All I've seen from you so far is an endless parade of shifting goalposts, ignoring evidence when it contradicts your views and a complete unwillingess to listen to anyone who doesnt support you one hundred percent. I hate to belabour the point but this also makes you look a complete idiot.

so far you're 0 for 3, care to try again?

EDIT - Also what Lucas said in post 496.

A failure to not Look Like An Idiot is no failure on these forum.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#499 - 2013-08-31 20:14:36 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I didn't say I was a good PvP'r nor did I say I was a full time PvP'r. I have a okay K/D ratio for solo pvp'r, actually its pretty damn good for a solo PvP'r. My last PvP sortie I killed 32 nullbears for 2 losses. Get out of your blobs and go try solo pvp in billion isk ships without jumpcloning and lets see how you do. If you can beat my 32 for 2 I'll give you 10 billion isk, happy to transfer it to Chribba if you like. Fraps it I'll be interested to see how you do in null all alone.

Hey, I'm not trying to insult you. But you appears to have only had 2 months of PvP in the past 3 years, which I would say excludes you from being classed as a PvPer I have kills on my KBs, most not solo, but I'm a trader. I don't go spouting off claiming to be the example of PvP.

Infinity Ziona wrote:
I disagree with your argument on POCO's.

That's great. It doesn't change the fact that that's how it's balanced, and it doesn't make you any less wrong.

I took a 3 year break and came back to EvE two months ago.

This thread is about balance. Claiming its perfect because its the way it is is ignoring the purpose of the thread.


And how does not playing for three years qualify you as someone who knows what they're talking about.

No, the purpose of this thread had nothing to do with blob vs solo or balance. For the record, I'm not an elite pvper by any means, but I've got solo kills AND blob kills. I've got kills where my ship was bigger than my target, smaller than my target, and I've killed targets that are unable to fight back. PVP = player vs player, that's its only defining factor, and it's not exclusive to combat. Where combat is concerned, how a kill is achieved does not define PVP, and as far as I'm concerned, a kill is a kill. The better player will win, even if he's using tactics that make the match one-sided. The fact that he's using those tactics is what makes him better, because it's a demonstration on how to utilise the sandbox.

I've been blobbed by Nulli, just recently coming through Akori. Lost a nice Comet there, but hell, that's EVE. I also just went out in an Enyo and popped a newb in a Venture. My last corp had a war with Marmite, and we went after a bait geddon knowing that it was bait. We did a LOT of damage, but then Marmite's fleet showed up and primaried my Brutix after dispatching our Falcon very quickly. It was only later that I realised after watching the playback from fraps that if I'd been overheating my guns, we would have killed the geddon. As it was, our small gang had stripped his armour, just as two logi showed up. Do you know why I'm not complaining? Because I learned something.

A few months ago, before I became incredibly unwell and had to take some time off everything, I beat a Caracal in a Talwar. Lately, I've been making my killboard look good, but for the first year that I played this game, my killboard was BAD. All losses, no kills, not until I started to LEARN. Now, if you look it up on Battleclinic, my wins almost match my losses (30-32), and my win points are higher than my loss points (although, I'm still down on the isk side of things by about .06bil i think, but that won't take long to fix). And I haven't been podded in a very, very long time.

If you're not winning fights, it's not because the game is unbalanced. It's because you're not as good as the player(s) who beat you, and you have to LEARN more to get better. And I'm telling you as someone that learned PVP mostly by losing a lot, and learning what not to do.

Is there an imbalance in EVE? As far as the tools of the sandbox are concerned, sure, there are still a few little imbalances here and there. But player created imbalance can be countered by player created imbalance, because the same tools are available for everyone. It's up to each and every player to understand the risks of the activities they choose to participate in, mitigate them accordingly, and learn from their mistakes, because CCP aren't going to hold your hand just because you decide to try and fly through Rancer all by yourself and (shock horror!) get blobbed.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#500 - 2013-08-31 20:39:06 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
No, the purpose of this thread had nothing to do with blob vs solo or balance.


If you're not winning fights, it's not because the game is unbalanced. It's because you're not as good as the player(s) who beat you, and you have to LEARN more to get better.

Or blob more Shocked

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?