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So this is it for eve, is this the future, is it?

First post
Author
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#261 - 2013-08-29 12:45:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Bi-Mi Lansatha
Infinity Ziona wrote:

They're not an issue. They're a stark example of a very cheap deploy-able module that are unable to be killed by raiders without disproportionate time and effort and isk being put in to kill them.

Maybe so, but I am not sure it would impact the Sovereignty issue in any meaningful way.

Note:cans at gates are a pain also.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#262 - 2013-08-29 12:51:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

They're not an issue. They're a stark example of a very cheap deploy-able module that are unable to be killed by raiders without disproportionate time and effort and isk being put in to kill them.

Maybe so, but I am not sure it would impact the Sovereignty issue in any meaningful way.

It goes to the heart of the Sov issue. Lets take hypothetical alliance called Groonstorm, they can field 15000 players because they've taken over most of the null map.

Lets also say there are two main ways of fighting in EvE. There is blob warfare and there is raiding. Blob is getting the biggest group possible and facestomping your opponents with superior forces and numbers.

Raiding is finding where your enemy is not deployed, or weakest and destroying all their shite making them weaker.

The way EvE is at the moment the second option is not possible. Meaning the fictional Groonstorm alliance, with its superior numbers and consequent superior income can facestomp any opposition into the ground without having to worry about overstretching, defending or logistical issues having such a large amount of space.

See my point?

Edit: All named entities in this post are fictional. Any resemblance to existing alliances and or persons is entirely accidental.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#263 - 2013-08-29 12:52:08 UTC
So in your perfect world an alliance would have to choose between either stationing a perma-fleet on a POCO or redeploying the POCO every time someone wanted to do PI. Why would anyone bother? To make that viable compared to just doing PI in highsec you'd have to boost 0.0 PI profits by so much it would completely ruin the economy.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#264 - 2013-08-29 12:55:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Infinity Ziona wrote:
However in EvE this can't occur, everything, even a 100 million isk customs office, has 10's of millions of HP's, goes into reinforced, removing any chance that an alliance needs to organize itself to defend.
No, it actually enables an alliance to organise itself to defend the asset. The defence must still happen, and without the organisation, it won't, and since the game doesn't defend anything, it the asset will blow up.

Above all, what they do is provide fights, rather than the meaningless ping-pong of old where nothing you did ever mattered and where small groups just auto-lost anything they tried to deploy.

Quote:
I'm embarrassed you're all defending it.
Ok. Personally, I'm not particularly embarrassed to be defending good gameplay mechanics that generates content for the players.

Quote:
Raiding is finding where your enemy is not deployed, or weakest and destroying all their shite making them weaker.

The way EvE is at the moment the second option is not possible.
Funnily enough, a raid to wreck the enemy's stuff and make them weaker was exactly how the 6V fight began…
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#265 - 2013-08-29 12:56:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Yeep wrote:
So in your perfect world an alliance would have to choose between either stationing a perma-fleet on a POCO or redeploying the POCO every time someone wanted to do PI. Why would anyone bother? To make that viable compared to just doing PI in highsec you'd have to boost 0.0 PI profits by so much it would completely ruin the economy.

Now your just being silly aren't you? In a perfect world you wouldn't put up a POCO if you weren't intending to use it. You wouldn't flee to another system just because I'm in local and expect that POCO to be there tomorrow. At the moment you can because CCP protects your assets with huge amounts of EHP and recharge.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#266 - 2013-08-29 12:57:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Yeep
Infinity Ziona wrote:

The way EvE is at the moment the second option is not possible. Meaning the fictional Groonstorm alliance, with its superior numbers and consequent superior income can facestomp any opposition into the ground without having to worry about overstretching, defending or logistical issues having such a large amount of space.


And yet during the Fountain war this exact thing happened on two different fronts to two different alliances. In one case the alliance decided to ignore their distant holdings in the hope they could re-capture them after the war was done. In the other the alliance had to re-deploy back to defend their distant holdings at the cost of abandoning the Fountain war.

Infinity Ziona wrote:

Now your just being silly aren't you? In a perfect world you wouldn't put up a POCO if you weren't intending to use it. You wouldn't flee to another system just because I'm in local and expect that POCO to be there tomorrow. At the moment you can because CCP protects your assets with huge amounts of EHP and recharge.


No, I'm not. If you want a POCO to explode when someone looks at it funny you have to factor the cost of either importing and setting it up or maintaining a 24/7 defense fleet into every PI transaction because you have to assume if you don't babysit it it won't be there when you need to use it.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#267 - 2013-08-29 13:10:08 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
...Raiding is finding where your enemy is not deployed, or weakest and destroying all their shite making them weaker...

See my point?

I understand what you are saying, it is the implementation that I believe is flawed. A small groups of ships should not be able to disrupt an entire 15,000 payer empire... that just isn't practical game play.

Speedkermit Damo
Invicta.
#268 - 2013-08-29 13:18:44 UTC
JinSanJong wrote:
Just one giant doughnut of renter space!? Is this what eve has now become?
There's something seriously wrong here. How can an alliance hold space and yet not live there and then rent it out? Surely the game is about gaining space, and keeping hold of it? The amount of nullsec thats now become rental space is just crazy,

OK OK, some might say, well we are getting more people into nullsec, we are allowing people that couldnt get into nullsec a chance to. OK we will charge them stupidly high prices but meh we dont want that space anyway. and herein lies the problem.

Why arent nullsec alliances exploiting the mining riches, the anomolies etc to make there isk like everyone else has to, instead of being lazy so and so's? Really they should be having mass mining ops, or large anomaly bashing ops instead of being carebears (which ironically they moan about high sec carebears) these are 10x worse. They wont do anything, they cry about their passive moon income being nerf because they simply cannot be bothered to go an actually make isk.

Is this really where eve has gone and going?

I mean yeah live in a region and have a few renters to make that extra income like some alliance do, but look at Northern Associates for instance (N3)

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Northern_Associates.

I mean what 10 regions or more just PURELY to rent. Surely it cant be just me that sees something wrong here.


At least there will be pilots actually in space doing stuff.

Which will be better than what we had before, where vast swathes of null were, still are empty, and most pilots didn't need to undock and do things to earn isk because moo-goo paid for all their needs.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

embrel
BamBam Inc.
#269 - 2013-08-29 13:21:21 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
...Raiding is finding where your enemy is not deployed, or weakest and destroying all their shite making them weaker...

See my point?

I understand what you are saying, it is the implementation that I believe is flawed. A small groups of ships should not be able to disrupt an entire 15,000 payer empire... that just isn't practical game play.



why not?
Such things have worked in the real world in the past. (yeah I did notice it's a game)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#270 - 2013-08-29 13:22:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Yeep wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

The way EvE is at the moment the second option is not possible. Meaning the fictional Groonstorm alliance, with its superior numbers and consequent superior income can facestomp any opposition into the ground without having to worry about overstretching, defending or logistical issues having such a large amount of space.


And yet during the Fountain war this exact thing happened on two different fronts to two different alliances. In one case the alliance decided to ignore their distant holdings in the hope they could re-capture them after the war was done. In the other the alliance had to re-deploy back to defend their distant holdings at the cost of abandoning the Fountain war.

Infinity Ziona wrote:

Now your just being silly aren't you? In a perfect world you wouldn't put up a POCO if you weren't intending to use it. You wouldn't flee to another system just because I'm in local and expect that POCO to be there tomorrow. At the moment you can because CCP protects your assets with huge amounts of EHP and recharge.


No, I'm not. If you want a POCO to explode when someone looks at it funny you have to factor the cost of either importing and setting it up or maintaining a 24/7 defense fleet into every PI transaction because you have to assume if you don't babysit it it won't be there when you need to use it.

Firstly the Fountain thing was a result of another flawed mechanic - being able to solo steal and disband an alliance.

As for the POCO, no one is suggesting it has the HP of a battleship, but they should not be functionally immune to small gang med gang raiding which they currently are, as are other assets in empty systems all over nullsec.

As for stationing people in systems, not necessarily required, but having a defense force nearby that can mobilize to kill raiders should be possible for a large alliance. If you can't manage that with a 10000 man alliance then you should lose those assets. And at the end of the day, its only a 100 million isk module.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#271 - 2013-08-29 13:30:31 UTC
That guy who shoots cyno ships is defeating us, EVE working as intended.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#272 - 2013-08-29 13:34:56 UTC
embrel wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
...Raiding is finding where your enemy is not deployed, or weakest and destroying all their shite making them weaker...

See my point?

I understand what you are saying, it is the implementation that I believe is flawed. A small groups of ships should not be able to disrupt an entire 15,000 payer empire... that just isn't practical game play.



why not?
Such things have worked in the real world in the past. (yeah I did notice it's a game)
Real world... 6th Fleet is always active... no down time. The game isn't like that.
Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
#273 - 2013-08-29 13:39:29 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
I searched the whole map, for sure hundreds of jumps in the last week, if not thousands, if there is a spot where a fight is on the map, you might go there but its over before you arrive... this **** happens day by day, so you endup camping a gate like all the other players out there, you wait for 1-2 hours, I did wait even longer, thats the only way to get a kill... you might join a corp and beg to god they start a war once a year, however as there is a maximum of 1 fight per day in nullsec, it would be like a loto jackpot to choose the right corp to assure you get into that fight

you also missunderstand that those fights are not spread over the whole day, you would need to hit the right time when those fights are happening, they take place in 1-2 hours each day, you never find one, its impossible because the map shows the fights delayed, its ****

ok, you don't seem to be getting it, so I'll say it as clearly as possible.
GO TO 1DH-SX.

Here, I'll even give you breakdown of kill by hour so you can see the hot spots:
10:00 5
09:00 2
08:00 2
07:00 0
06:00 0
05:00 7
04:00 7
03:00 18
02:00 12
01:00 7
00:00 6
23:00 9
22:00 15
21:00 4
20:00 4
19:00 57
18:00 22
17:00 6
16:00 8
15:00 5
14:00 4

If you are too ******** to find kills in a warzone, then quitting EVE might not be enough.


oh boy, I have to set the alarm clock to see those 5 kills... this is epic
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#274 - 2013-08-29 13:45:30 UTC
embrel wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
...Raiding is finding where your enemy is not deployed, or weakest and destroying all their shite making them weaker...

See my point?

I understand what you are saying, it is the implementation that I believe is flawed. A small groups of ships should not be able to disrupt an entire 15,000 payer empire... that just isn't practical game play.



why not?
Such things have worked in the real world in the past. (yeah I did notice it's a game)


No they haven't

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#275 - 2013-08-29 13:46:09 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
embrel wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
...Raiding is finding where your enemy is not deployed, or weakest and destroying all their shite making them weaker...

See my point?
I understand what you are saying, it is the implementation that I believe is flawed. A small groups of ships should not be able to disrupt an entire 15,000 payer empire... that just isn't practical game play.

why not?
Such things have worked in the real world in the past. (yeah I did notice it's a game)

Real world... 6th Fleet is always active... no down time. The game isn't like that.

AFk cloakers can play eve unless the world is down.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#276 - 2013-08-29 13:46:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Harry Forever wrote:
oh boy, I have to set the alarm clock to see those 5 kills... this is epic

So you're not awake during any of the 22 hours that have kills?

This is too stupid even for you Harry. 0/10

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#277 - 2013-08-29 13:47:50 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

AFk cloakers can play eve unless the world is down.
AFK Coalkers make very poor defenders. Blink
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#278 - 2013-08-29 13:48:19 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Firstly the Fountain thing was a result of another flawed mechanic - being able to solo steal and disband an alliance.

Are you talking about the recent fountain war? That had nothing to do with stealing and disbanding an alliance. TEST held fountain, CFC attacked fountain, CFC won. The only alliance disband that happened during that happened to N3, miles away from fountain and wasn't a CFC thing.

Infinity Ziona wrote:
As for the POCO, no one is suggesting it has the HP of a battleship, but they should not be functionally immune to small gang med gang raiding which they currently are, as are other assets in empty systems all over nullsec.

As for stationing people in systems, not necessarily required, but having a defense force nearby that can mobilize to kill raiders should be possible for a large alliance. If you can't manage that with a 10000 man alliance then you should lose those assets. And at the end of the day, its only a 100 million isk module.

What Yeep is pointing out, is that keeping a fleet nearby is not a cheap thing to do. If that were to be required for every POCO, then null sec PI would need to be worth a LOT more to be worth it. If any idiot could destroy it with a spare 10 minutes, we'd just not bother with PI. It's really not that big for income.

Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Oh, I see. Lucas Kell, advocate for and defender of "the little guy". Is that why you've been running around on your alt(s) ganking noob mining barges? Are they somehow hurting "the little guy"? Are their Retreivers and Mackinaws a threat to "the little guy"? GTFOOH

Tell me what "little guy" has a POS up in the heart of sovereign null sec. Tell me what "little guy" built Mittaningrad. Tell me why this "little guy" needs to be able to repel all of the firepower in the entire galaxy for almost TWO DAYS, and tell me what he's going to do against that firepower once the reinforcement timer is up on his small tower.

Some stuff you can't do alone. Some stuff you SHOULDN'T BE ABLE to do alone, like hold multiple systems hostage for days without any effort or input on your part when there is a determined force working against you.

I never said that I'm for the little guy. But this guy is trying to claim that POCOs are too hard to take down, and they should be made weaker so the little guy can have his chance to shine. But really this is a load of bull. He doesn't want to place a POCO, he just wants to be able to randomly destroy them. And making them easier to kill would affect small groups in wormholes a LOT more than it would affect a null alliance.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
#279 - 2013-08-29 13:53:15 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
embrel wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
...Raiding is finding where your enemy is not deployed, or weakest and destroying all their shite making them weaker...

See my point?

I understand what you are saying, it is the implementation that I believe is flawed. A small groups of ships should not be able to disrupt an entire 15,000 payer empire... that just isn't practical game play.



why not?
Such things have worked in the real world in the past. (yeah I did notice it's a game)


No they haven't


yes they have
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#280 - 2013-08-29 14:00:36 UTC
Harry Forever wrote:
...yes they have...
Cool... history.

I can think of a couple that might apply, but would you mind listing which ones you are referencing?