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Star Citizen v EVE

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digitalwanderer
DW inc
#1701 - 2014-09-08 16:52:42 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:
You can always go out there and try to make those skills count. A long time ago CCP realized that if they base the game content around solely training/grinding for another spaceship, the content will be exhausted in a matter of months.

So, they made the wise choice of putting an emphasis on the player interaction and "the sandbox". Frankly, if not for this interaction and the players themselves I doubt EVE would still exist, certainly not in the form we see it today.



Bull.....If that was the goal, they wouldn't have put 400+ skills in game that takes 18 years to max out, if it's only about what you do gameplay wise that counts.

They wanted people to specialize in a given field so there is a lot of variety of skills, but what they didn't count on are people playing for the long term, and even had a poll several years ago that showed in the vast majority of cases, most users play eve for an average of 9 months before moving to something else, so in their opinion releasing more objectives and skills and equipment for those old users playing it for the long run, seemed like a waste of time.


Well now those long term players are running out of objectives to aim for skills wise, have mountains of isk, the best hardwires and implants and a large ship collection fitted with the best gear in them, and you want them to risk it all in PVP because there's nothing else left to do in the frigging game....I don't think so.
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#1702 - 2014-09-09 06:26:07 UTC
Why not? If you have mountains of ISK, those ships are easily replaced (and ships in EVE are by design pretty disposable).

Was there anything else than PvP to do in EVE to begin with?

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph

digitalwanderer
DW inc
#1703 - 2014-09-09 17:08:25 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:
Why not? If you have mountains of ISK, those ships are easily replaced (and ships in EVE are by design pretty disposable).

Was there anything else than PvP to do in EVE to begin with?



Yes, it's a called a sandbox, and it isn't exclusive to PVP but to provide the foundations for however the user chooses to play.


For straight up PVP, i'll stick to first person shooters and not the gankfest that passes for pvp in eve.
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#1704 - 2014-09-10 12:18:15 UTC
You could say everything in EVE is in some way related to PvP and PvP in general is broader than just "ships exploding". From market to industry there's competition from other players.

Hell, even mining in a belt in hisec you're no somehow "exempt" from being involved in PvP activities - for starters, someone could always warp to your belt and gank you for your mods or extort money from you like CODE does. Even excluding ganking, you're also competing for resources - if others get blown up, there's more ore left for you.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph

digitalwanderer
DW inc
#1705 - 2014-09-10 17:28:41 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:
You could say everything in EVE is in some way related to PvP and PvP in general is broader than just "ships exploding". From market to industry there's competition from other players.

Hell, even mining in a belt in hisec you're no somehow "exempt" from being involved in PvP activities - for starters, someone could always warp to your belt and gank you for your mods or extort money from you like CODE does. Even excluding ganking, you're also competing for resources - if others get blown up, there's more ore left for you.



The point still stands that after 13 years playing the game non stop, I and all those that started when the game first launched, will do something that even CCP and most players thought would never happen, and that's max out all ship related skills to their fullest, which like I said, hit about 270 skills.


Some might even take it all the way to the maximum and hang around to max out all skills completely, and it's pretty incredible that in that 18 year period, many were born in 2003 and will be almost done with high school and already well into college by then, and doing something considered impossible by CCP.


Tell your argument to someone has hundreds of billions or is already in the trillion mark if he's going to even care what happens in a mining field, or if he cares about resources in general or worried about the price of anything in general....Time to crank the game up several notches in aspects that are skill intensive and expensive, even if many younger players might feel it increases the skill point gap between young and old players.


That used to be the argument even when I was just 1 year old with about 12 million skill points, and new players that had just signed up were already complaining we had a lead they'd never catch up to, never mind now that i'm 6 months away from 250 million sp.
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#1706 - 2014-09-11 06:36:56 UTC
CCP introduced titans as rare, endgame ships that cost a lot - SP-wise and ISK-wise. Their power was backed up by a claim of rarity - "at most there will be like... five of those". Let's hope they never make this mistake again - supercapital proliferation, ho!

So, okay, let's say CCP introduces a new, very powerful T2 battleship class that costs a few billion to make and an entirely new skillset for it - requiring high-profile skills to begin with. This battleship is broken in big numbers, but as it's designed for high-SP, high-ISK setups... surely nobody can afford to mass it?

Enter player alliances. Someone in the hierarchy of a major 0.0 alliance figures out a doctrine setup that'd be utterly broken. The alliance calls on its members to start training relevant skills to get into one, ratting/mining/doing whatever to get some of the ISK required. They figure out the fastest skillplan and publish it to their members, helping them get those skills faster.

Since the pricetag is big, the alliance - with help of its massive moon/rental incomes - offers subsidies on those new ships, allowing the members to get them faster. Within months, you have an entire fleet of broken ships rolling about and nobody can stop it.

Of course, their enemies copy this setup in some way and the entire meta shifts to being about just one ship - just like back when Drake was your do-it-all sov war battlecruiser. (Though that was often mixed up with high-alpha Maelstrom doctrines and actually killable.)

Endgame is about what you make it about. Whether it's about collecting ships and letting them rust in a hangar or riding out and making a name for yourself - it's your choice and CCP won't hold your hand and won't give you a cookie once you've reached the end.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph

digitalwanderer
DW inc
#1707 - 2014-09-13 03:04:22 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:
CCP introduced titans as rare, endgame ships that cost a lot - SP-wise and ISK-wise. Their power was backed up by a claim of rarity - "at most there will be like... five of those". Let's hope they never make this mistake again - supercapital proliferation, ho!

So, okay, let's say CCP introduces a new, very powerful T2 battleship class that costs a few billion to make and an entirely new skillset for it - requiring high-profile skills to begin with. This battleship is broken in big numbers, but as it's designed for high-SP, high-ISK setups... surely nobody can afford to mass it?

Enter player alliances. Someone in the hierarchy of a major 0.0 alliance figures out a doctrine setup that'd be utterly broken. The alliance calls on its members to start training relevant skills to get into one, ratting/mining/doing whatever to get some of the ISK required. They figure out the fastest skillplan and publish it to their members, helping them get those skills faster.

Since the pricetag is big, the alliance - with help of its massive moon/rental incomes - offers subsidies on those new ships, allowing the members to get them faster. Within months, you have an entire fleet of broken ships rolling about and nobody can stop it.

Of course, their enemies copy this setup in some way and the entire meta shifts to being about just one ship - just like back when Drake was your do-it-all sov war battlecruiser. (Though that was often mixed up with high-alpha Maelstrom doctrines and actually killable.)

Endgame is about what you make it about. Whether it's about collecting ships and letting them rust in a hangar or riding out and making a name for yourself - it's your choice and CCP won't hold your hand and won't give you a cookie once you've reached the end.



Not asking for hand holding or a cookie either, but to make the game challenging for every player still playing the game, and that goes beyond PVP...

There could be mechanics in place that go beyond having a lot of isk or the ship taking months to make.....I'm talking skill sets that take years to train even for veteran players, are mandatory to train them all to even undock the ship.

Make it in such a way that training for a titan and maxing all the relevant skills was a joke by comparison....That kind of difficulty that makes said ships available take 5+ years before they become common, not just a few months.


Anyhow, back to star citizen and i'm happy to say the V0.9 patch is out and the hangars look stunning.....big patch though, it's actually larger than the entire EVE client and it's only a small part of the entire game....I'm afraid to imagine how big the game will be once all the individual parts come together....It'll be a monster download.

Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#1708 - 2014-09-14 12:25:03 UTC
Um, so we have a problem in 5 years and not 2 months? And, as an extension of that, CCP makes a repeat of their past mistakes?

Nothing in this game that's not PvP is challenging. PvE is highly predictable, mind-numbingly boring and only serves as means to fuel a conflict between players with ISK. Bounties and loot mean you buy ships to fight the other guys and have fun.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph

digitalwanderer
DW inc
#1709 - 2014-09-14 17:36:16 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:
Um, so we have a problem in 5 years and not 2 months? And, as an extension of that, CCP makes a repeat of their past mistakes?

Nothing in this game that's not PvP is challenging. PvE is highly predictable, mind-numbingly boring and only serves as means to fuel a conflict between players with ISK. Bounties and loot mean you buy ships to fight the other guys and have fun.



That always happens eventually, and FYI Titan's and super carriers and carriers and dreadnaughts were only introduced in 2005....Now the smaller carriers and dreads were popular initially since they were easy to build and could be done in high sec empire initially, but titans and super carriers have always been restricted to 0.0 space and with high enough sovereignty level to install the shipyards, and it still took years to get to the insane number we have now.


Oveur, which is one of the original developers in CCP, once stated that there would be 5 tech levels in the game and here we are 11 years later and barely scratched tech 3 by just having cruisers, and as far as other objectives go, he also mentioned that eventually, it would be possible to become Jove with what i'm sure would be some serious restrictions, given their much more advanced technology.


I routinely go on lvl 5 missions solo and don't find it boring and easy, and also have fun with the burner missions solo, and still haven't gotten blown up yet( they are hard suckers to blow up though).
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#1710 - 2014-09-15 19:23:35 UTC
Why go beyond T3, if T3 is still broken? T3s, generalist ships by design, match or outdo T2 ships in their own field. And yes, while it took years for titans to achieve today's numbers - they were broken from the get-go.

- Remote AoE DD's. Fortunately removed.
- AoE DD's. Fortunately replaced by one-target DD's.
- Subcap locking DD's. Fortunately removed.
- Broken tracking leading to "blap-titans". Nerfed.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph

Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#1711 - 2014-09-16 04:10:56 UTC
This thread has been pretty awful every time I've looked in on it, but I've never seen it drop to the level where the argument was over whether EVE is a progress quest or an actual game.

If these are the people who are going to leave, SC can't release soon enough.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment

digitalwanderer
DW inc
#1712 - 2014-09-16 04:44:57 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:
Why go beyond T3, if T3 is still broken? T3s, generalist ships by design, match or outdo T2 ships in their own field. And yes, while it took years for titans to achieve today's numbers - they were broken from the get-go.

- Remote AoE DD's. Fortunately removed.
- AoE DD's. Fortunately replaced by one-target DD's.
- Subcap locking DD's. Fortunately removed.
- Broken tracking leading to "blap-titans". Nerfed.



True on all counts, but that goes for pretty much everything and not just T3's.....Everything has been rebalanced so many times I lost count, but doesn't change the fact that for long term players, the overall gameplay experience doesn't necessarily end up in funnel ending up in only one activity ...PVP in 0.0 space, and I've known a fair amount that have moved to that environment, and the surprising thing is that they've stated more than once, fights are started for the simple reason that pilots are bored otherwise.


Not to gain territory, or become richer or have access to more resources, but just out of boredom.....See I've been in 0.0 myself for the better part of 3 years, and got a taste of the politics, backroom deals and overall paranoia at the time, so I did what I had to do, participated in CTA's for either defense or offense for whatever reasons the leadership decided were important, but eventually got the hell out of there once I had made more than enough isk .....It's like the old saying " great for a vacation but wouldn't want to live there"...:p
digitalwanderer
DW inc
#1713 - 2014-09-16 04:48:19 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
This thread has been pretty awful every time I've looked in on it, but I've never seen it drop to the level where the argument was over whether EVE is a progress quest or an actual game.

If these are the people who are going to leave, SC can't release soon enough.



Heh, if enough of us leave there might not be enough logging in or with active accounts left to still allow the game to run and make some money for CCP to keep releasing some updates, god knows plenty have already left as it is....


It's been a nice 11 years and not many games actually last this long to begin with.
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#1714 - 2014-09-16 05:54:24 UTC
Fights are started because people get bored. Wars get started because someone wants something, or a "fight because we were bored" escalates. Fountain war started due to CCP's changes to moons for instance - with relations between TEST/HBC and the CFC already strained (Some of the CFC still kept them as blue, but they have been reset by others) the need for resources made us invade.

It is true though that recently the situation has been a bit stale - something CCP seems to be already looking into. And no, the world won't collapse if they scare away a bunch of carebears by doing so instead of catering to their whining - first of all, there may be carebears all around but only a small part of them is vocal enough to "threaten" CCP with quitting. The rest will just keep playing as if nothing happened - for years the argument "If we quit, you won't be able to support the game!" surfaced again and again on the forums - and despite many occasions, we haven't seen a mass exodus yet.

We've actually seen old players who quit returning to the game. Any major conflict sparked by CCP's rebalance efforts has a chance not only to bring back the old players but also generate publicity like B-R.

As an addition to that, quitting EVE is like quitting smoking. Sure it's possible, just not permanently.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph

digitalwanderer
DW inc
#1715 - 2014-09-16 19:40:25 UTC  |  Edited by: digitalwanderer
Trii Seo wrote:
Fights are started because people get bored. Wars get started because someone wants something, or a "fight because we were bored" escalates. Fountain war started due to CCP's changes to moons for instance - with relations between TEST/HBC and the CFC already strained (Some of the CFC still kept them as blue, but they have been reset by others) the need for resources made us invade.

It is true though that recently the situation has been a bit stale - something CCP seems to be already looking into. And no, the world won't collapse if they scare away a bunch of carebears by doing so instead of catering to their whining - first of all, there may be carebears all around but only a small part of them is vocal enough to "threaten" CCP with quitting. The rest will just keep playing as if nothing happened - for years the argument "If we quit, you won't be able to support the game!" surfaced again and again on the forums - and despite many occasions, we haven't seen a mass exodus yet.

We've actually seen old players who quit returning to the game. Any major conflict sparked by CCP's rebalance efforts has a chance not only to bring back the old players but also generate publicity like B-R.

As an addition to that, quitting EVE is like quitting smoking. Sure it's possible, just not permanently.



All I remember are the login records, which the last one totaled 64 000 players that were logged in goes back 2+ years ago, and now we struggle with getting to 40 000 players even on a Sunday, so it's not just a small part to say the least.


I did see one guy I started playing with in 2003 return after an absence of at least 3 years, but everyone else I did start with has either quite or is in in 0.0 and when I do manage to see them it doesn't last more than a minute since they just log in, change skills and log out....They're not actively playing the game anymore, so there's something to be said about the game having 500 000 members, but I wonder how many of them are active players with active accounts.


It's pretty pathetic seeing 30 000~40 000 members logged in on a Sunday out of a user base of 500 000, no?....That's not even 10% of the player base....EVE has turned into a snore fest.
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#1716 - 2014-09-17 05:40:03 UTC
Well, if numbers say snore fest it sure has to be.

I mean, it's not like we're having fun here, we're all surely doomed because numbers say so... right?

Alright, to be honest - I didn't notice any difference between 64k and 40k. It certainly has been far from a snore fest over the past two years. Closest to an actual "snore fest" we came is right about now, actually due to a low amount of big conflicts - and that's silence before a storm.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#1717 - 2014-09-17 13:01:32 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
This thread has been pretty awful every time I've looked in on it, but I've never seen it drop to the level where the argument was over whether EVE is a progress quest or an actual game.

If these are the people who are going to leave, SC can't release soon enough.


If history is any indication (this has happened before, it will happen again lol), a good few will "leave" (can't have 2 game son that HD at once now can we ? lol), probably loudly and with curses at CCP for "not making EVE live up to it's potential". After a while the shine will wear off whatever new game it is, and back to EVE they will slink like all those who proclaimed the End of EVE due to Black Prophecy/STO/SWG/SWTOR/etc etc.

It's mainly because of a lack of understanding of what EVE is, what it gives them that is hard to be had in other games and so on. So they go to these new games thinking "GREAT, a space sim without all the BS and griefing of EVE", go to play their heavily instanced new game in "solo" or "private" mode, spend the whole time thinking something is missing, and eventually realize that what's missing is what they thought they hated in EVE: other people lol.

EVE doesn't give players a choice (high sec isn't on a different server and pvp is present there), it throws everyone into the same merciless mosh pit. After EVE, everything else just seems...shallow and 'video-gamey' lol.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#1718 - 2014-09-17 19:43:08 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Crumplecorn wrote:
This thread has been pretty awful every time I've looked in on it, but I've never seen it drop to the level where the argument was over whether EVE is a progress quest or an actual game.

If these are the people who are going to leave, SC can't release soon enough.


If history is any indication (this has happened before, it will happen again lol), a good few will "leave" (can't have 2 game son that HD at once now can we ? lol), probably loudly and with curses at CCP for "not making EVE live up to it's potential". After a while the shine will wear off whatever new game it is, and back to EVE they will slink like all those who proclaimed the End of EVE due to Black Prophecy/STO/SWG/SWTOR/etc etc.

It's mainly because of a lack of understanding of what EVE is, what it gives them that is hard to be had in other games and so on. So they go to these new games thinking "GREAT, a space sim without all the BS and griefing of EVE", go to play their heavily instanced new game in "solo" or "private" mode, spend the whole time thinking something is missing, and eventually realize that what's missing is what they thought they hated in EVE: other people lol.

EVE doesn't give players a choice (high sec isn't on a different server and pvp is present there), it throws everyone into the same merciless mosh pit. After EVE, everything else just seems...shallow and 'video-gamey' lol.


This. Though I will add..

I played eve for about two years, then my two irl wingmen (have long moved on) jumped over to wow and tried that. So I went 'what the heck lets try it" I installed it and started playing. After about an hour I logged off, uninstalled and never looked back. I look at my friends and just shake my head.

My issues I had, besides I dispise run around kill crap with sticks, lvl up games, is there was no skill system, I had to pick a damn server, and when I ot my ass kicked by an npc and was like 'wait I just lost a little xp? where the hell Is the loss of stuff?" wow just felt very weak in comparison.

The same reaction to STO and Conan. It just feels weak.

SC will attract some people, and some eve players will go there and break SC. Because lets face it, all new games need to be shown there flaws so they can be fixed. Some will not come back to eve, but most eventually will. We may have a bunch of dicks and issues, but tbh, there is no game, anywhere, like eve. After you have ran the same quest for 500 times and can do it blind folded, it tends to get dull as that is all there typically is in non sandboxes

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.

digitalwanderer
DW inc
#1719 - 2014-09-18 19:47:49 UTC
Dunno about you guys but since the 0.9 patch has been released, I've been having a ball in coop mode 4 vs 4 dog fights with the NPC's on one side and real players on your end, and the NPC's ever harder on each wave, then there's a battle royal mode( last man standing), and the capture the core mode( standard capture the flag mode), and finally the racing tracks( 3 to pick from).


All these modes are playable with real players and not just exclusively with NPC's, and they're a riot with the realistic physics and having red outs and black outs in hard maneuvering, and having full Hotas support and track IR support, not to mention looking absolutely stunning in the process right down to the hangars....Eve is looking old by comparison.


And bigger fights will be possible with up to 50 player ships involved even if it's instanced, which is plenty and while it isn't the 1000 ship fights of eve, it does avoid the blob warfare it's become.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#1720 - 2014-09-18 19:50:22 UTC
digitalwanderer wrote:
Dunno about you guys but since the 0.9 patch has been released, I've been having a ball in coop mode 4 vs 4 dog fights with the NPC's on one side and real players on your end, and the NPC's ever harder on each wave, then there's a battle royal mode( last man standing), and the capture the core mode( standard capture the flag mode), and finally the racing tracks( 3 to pick from).


All these modes are playable with real players and not just exclusively with NPC's, and they're a riot with the realistic physics and having red outs and black outs in hard maneuvering, and having full Hotas support and track IR support, not to mention looking absolutely stunning in the process right down to the hangars....Eve is looking old by comparison.


And bigger fights will be possible with up to 50 player ships involved even if it's instanced, which is plenty and while it isn't the 1000 ship fights of eve, it does avoid the blob warfare it's become.



That's nice, I'll take my 2k vs 2k single server don't need to ask what server and or instance to join to be with my buds everyday of the week.

You can enjoy your vaporware, and if you are, more power to ya.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.