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Issues, Workarounds & Localization

 
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The new launcher and the web server issues on the 21st of May: FAQ and update thread

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Luc Chastot
#481 - 2013-05-25 19:40:23 UTC
I'm sitting here staring at the new launcher; what's the problem with it again?

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#482 - 2013-05-25 19:40:39 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:
Please don't misconstrue what I said; I love the fact that you find it better and faster (that was essentially the point) it's just that from the tone of the forum not many people agree with your position.

I want to work with those who don't agree and find either ways to meet them in the middle, bring them around to my point of thinking or come up with an acceptable solution Smile



Working with the users in a production environment is horribly wrong; this is why SiSi exists.

The beta testers on SiSi said not to roll this out because of the issues we're now facing and complaining about. This was the same with Incarna in 2011, and the same with Unified Inventory in 2012.

Why can't CCP work with the beta testers? Why do you have to do this to the production environment and upset the customer base? Why are you not listening?

You tell us you've "learned your lesson", that "you'll listen more to the players", and that you've "taken notes on how NOT to do this again" but none of us believe you. Let's be honest for a moment ..... your actions right now show you're not listening and the perception is you don't care. Throwing us fifty thousand SP for free makes this worse because some of us think we're just being appeased and that we'll shut up.

As far as the launcher goes ..... I don't find this launcher to be faster. It's made mutli-boxing a pain, it eats up more of my computers resources, and it's the exact opposite of everything it was supposed to do. What makes this worse is I had to fix what your updates didn't and manually move folders to bring back my settings and overviews.

Should we as customers be picking up the pieces your code and updates didn't?



And I'm not using the launcher .... not even for updates. I'll use the \bin\ExeFile.exe until you take it away.

This isn't because I don't like change, I honestly welcome it. For me, this launcher is simply not working as advertised and I want to play .... not held up in an endless loop of updates that aren't updating due to bad code.


Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"!

POS fix dated back to 2006!
Par'Gellen
#483 - 2013-05-25 19:51:49 UTC
Ok this is annoying. I've been logging in and out all day on the launcher with no problems then I closed it by accident. When I opened it up again it sat validating my client for about 5 minutes before I could log in again.

This comes to mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFEoMO0pc7k

"To err is human", but it shouldn't be the company motto...
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#484 - 2013-05-25 19:54:59 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:


The Singularity testing thread was run for almost four weeks, and to begin with was a goodwill opt in test. The logs we were seeing and the feedback we were getting, we felt that we were in a good position to release. One thing I have learnt is that goodwill testing isn't enough; for a change to the Launcher we should have made it a mandatory switch from the very beginning.


Given the cave in of the Web Server - a tick box to the QA list for any feature change should be MASS testing. If more than 100 customers can do something with the feature at the same instance (like lock, fire, jump, LOGIN) then it needs to be mass tested.

Note: TBH 100 pulled out of the air... maybe it's really like 20.


Maybe if the test server had some sort of real reward you would get more participation
Par'Gellen
#485 - 2013-05-25 19:59:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Par'Gellen
KIller Wabbit wrote:
Maybe if the test server had some sort of real reward you would get more participation
This is an idea I would participate in! Pay us for testing with imaginary money you make yourselves (or imaginary skill points or whatever) and I promise you you'd see a huge increase in participation.

Edit: I borked the quote lol

"To err is human", but it shouldn't be the company motto...
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#486 - 2013-05-25 20:00:25 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:
Par'Gellen wrote:
Dzen Avi wrote:
Finally!!! Found the way to skip the launcher!
In the "bin" folder of EVE there is a file ExeFile.exe - it throws you directly to the old window when you choose your account and click play.
Enjoy!
Only for a few more days. CCP has already confirmed that the ability to do this will be removed.

We've never given a date, so I don't know where you've come across the idea that it will be in a few days. In many threads so far I've stated that it won't be before Odyssey, and I even stated only a few posts previously in this very thread "Whilst I can't give you an estimated time of arrival on when we will remove the old login screen, it will be at a point in time after people are comfortable with our new login paradigm and feel that the Launcher is offering them comparable functionality."

That won't be in a "few days" Smile


As said by others - removing this functionality entirely is being silly. It's a built in backup that requires no code changes going forward. Just more work to take it out. Given that it is a work around for a number of failure scenarios, really?
Oraac Ensor
#487 - 2013-05-25 20:01:55 UTC
Neevor Airuta wrote:
And if you need to update your client do that with repair tool. Works faster and more reliably.

Doesn't work at all at the moment.
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#488 - 2013-05-25 20:05:34 UTC
MaRU2760 133 wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
To all the people who say they're going to unsubscribe over added effort to log in or similar issues (not talking to the people who can't get into the game at all):

Do you seriously believe that this threat actually means anything in this context? Do you not realize that the more you use it over such trivial matters (especially when there are easy workarounds) the more it weakens your position in the future?

Sometimes I wonder how many people who threaten to unsubscribe actually end up doing it.


After Incarna, I shut down three of my 5 accounts. I didn't totally unsubscribe, but I never threatened to, either.


This mess definitely put on hold my plans to add accounts.
Neevor Airuta
Grey Horizon
#489 - 2013-05-25 20:09:12 UTC
Oraac Ensor wrote:
Neevor Airuta wrote:
And if you need to update your client do that with repair tool. Works faster and more reliably.

Doesn't work at all at the moment.



Wich means launcher update probably wouldn't work either, as I assume they use the same content server, only with diffrent UI. Can someone confirm or deny that?
Lysa Riay
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#490 - 2013-05-25 20:25:50 UTC
Par'Gellen wrote:
KIller Wabbit wrote:
Maybe if the test server had some sort of real reward you would get more participation
This is an idea I would participate in! Pay us for testing with imaginary money you make yourselves (or imaginary skill points or whatever) and I promise you you'd see a huge increase in participation.

Edit: I borked the quote lol


Maybe, just maybe if the feedback was listened to, people might want to test on SiSi but since the track record is:
~ the users are wrong push it out anyway

Why bother testing and posting feedback?

Could Klang take the (now rotting) pizzas & the launcher out as they leave the building plz.
Par'Gellen
#491 - 2013-05-25 20:46:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Par'Gellen
Lysa Riay wrote:
Maybe, just maybe if the feedback was listened to, people might want to test on SiSi but since the track record is:
~ the users are wrong push it out anyway

Why bother testing and posting feedback?

Well I was just thinking in terms of participation. What they do with the feedback is another issue entirely. From my past experience with test server feedback I imagine a fax machine feeding directly into a paper shredder.

"To err is human", but it shouldn't be the company motto...
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#492 - 2013-05-25 20:53:57 UTC
Bugs that are identified with an easy to reproduce cause are fixed quickly. The ones that a dev cant find right away that effect smaller amounts of people require clear repro cases and if the devs do not get them yes they do not get fixed.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.
Sarmatiko
#493 - 2013-05-25 21:33:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarmatiko
Lysa Riay wrote:

Maybe, just maybe if the feedback was listened to, people might want to test on SiSi but since the track record is:
~ the users are wrong push it out anyway
Why bother testing and posting feedback?

The fun thing is that after previous launcher threadnought, CCP seems acknowledged mistake in communication with CSM:

Quote:
CCP Atropos noted that there had not been much feedback when the Launcher was on SiSi but some negative feedback from players when it went live. He had been expecting more CSM feedback.
May 2012

So basically after one year we have exactly the same story with haste deployement and predicted negative community reaction.

It would be easier for community to accept this changes if only CCP had provided some near future plan and explanation why exactly they need new launcher ASAP.
Like: "we need new launcher NOW, because not later than in one month we will deploy mobile and e-mail authentication, revamp character select screen to allow character switch without re-login. That's why this can't wait anymore."
Sorry, but right now it looks more like: "Deploy all things before Odyssey and go for summer vacations. More features in winter expansion. Maybe".
Sakura Nihil
Faded Light
#494 - 2013-05-25 21:44:44 UTC
Sigh.

I think this new launcher is one of those situations where "it wasn't broken, don't fix it". The loss of the iconic log-in screen, difficulties dealing with settings over the last couple of days, and having to close about ten instances of the launcher through Windows Task Manager... it's been annoying, to say the least.

Honestly not seeing the net improvement at the moment.

Glory

Faded Light is recruiting
Hagbard Solaris
Omega Eternal
#495 - 2013-05-25 23:51:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Hagbard Solaris
Sakura Nihil wrote:
Sigh. I think this new launcher is one of those situations where "it wasn't broken, don't fix it". The loss of the iconic log-in screen, difficulties dealing with settings over the last couple of days, and having to close about ten instances of the launcher through Windows Task Manager... it's been annoying, to say the least. Honestly not seeing the net improvement at the moment.

But it was broken. It didn't have enough motion to keep an ADHD child interested. It didn't have a link to CCP's TV channel. It didn't use the SSO protocol (ofc the new one doesn't either, in any way usable to the player) CCP spent so much effort designing. It used the iconic login screen instead of giving you a soundless black screen with a tiny box in the middle showing the connecting and character selection progress bars. Most importantly, it didn't look "New" and "Edgy".
If you haven't seen the "improvement" to the launcher, perhaps it's because you aren't CCP's new target player demographic. Find a small child raised on smartphones and SpongeBob and plunk him down in front of the new launcher. That is if you can pry him away from WoW long enough.

What if New Eden was a virtual prison and we're convicts in a prison pod somehwere?
MaRU2760 133
Unit 439
#496 - 2013-05-26 00:51:10 UTC
Neevor Airuta wrote:


1: Change your eve lauching shortcuts to exefile.exe and ignore launcher altogether.
CCP Atropos claimed there are ways to differentiate between people launching eve with launcher or exefile. Let them see we don't use launcher, as a measurable sign it's broken.
And if you need to update your client do that with repair tool. Works faster and more reliably.


This is a great idea, but the repair tool has never worked for me.

I will implement your suggestion, but updates may be iffy.
MaRU2760 133
Unit 439
#497 - 2013-05-26 01:06:06 UTC
Niding wrote:
MaRU2760 133 wrote:
Par'Gellen wrote:
Here is an idea for alleviating the launcher's python memory bloat issue. How about adding into the launcher the ability to enter specific client path and startup information for each account? This way you can launch multiple clients from different paths from the same launcher and would be a very simple thing to do. It could easily be coded in an afternoon (if that).


How about cutting out all the bling? It's a launcher for chrisake. It's a launcher after all. It should launch, ONLY.


Its not exactly hard to understand why they do this.

When advertisement interrupts you TV movie its not cause the TV program caster thinks you LOVE to watch ads,
but cause they make money off it.
The comparison can be made to this new launcher, tho the money gains are indirect.

Makes sense from a economic point of view, but not when performance is screwed around with, pissing off your current
customers.

Also; I think its reasonably safe to assume a fair % of the customers do not read EVE-O forum regularly, nor aware
of channels like Twitch; so reaching them thru a launcher that you are FORCED to look at each time you want to log
into the game is a reasonably good idea on paper, IF it had been implimented well. Which it so far hasnt.


Oh, I understand why they do it. It's all about money for them, and has nothing to do with us.

Let's see, they say they have 500,000 paid accounts at something like $15 each. That would be something like 7.5 Million dollars per month. 90 Million dollars a year. That's not enough? How many yachts does Hilmar need?
MaRU2760 133
Unit 439
#498 - 2013-05-26 03:17:44 UTC
BTW, and I know this is the wrong place to bring this up, but

Is there anyone else who feels that training two characters on the same account, if you have the PLEX, is NOT pay 2 win?

Sure, some players make enough to be able to afford PLEXes for two, but is that an option that is financially feasible for the majority? I don't think so.

So the people who are willing to throw cash at the game rule? Well, they will if Pay For Skills is implemented.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#499 - 2013-05-26 03:37:08 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Balder Verdandi wrote:
The beta testers on SiSi said not to roll this out because of the issues we're now facing and complaining about. This was the same with Incarna in 2011, and the same with Unified Inventory in 2012.

I was one of those who tested the launcher on singularity.
I can confirm there were several issues with the launcher at that time, and that I and others told CCP in no uncertain terms that the launcher must not be released in its then-present form. Some of these issues were fixed. Some of the issues in the release version of the launcher weren't present in the beta.

MaRU2760 133 wrote:
BTW, and I know this is the wrong place to bring this up, but

Is there anyone else who feels that training two characters on the same account, if you have the PLEX, is NOT pay 2 win?

Sure, some players make enough to be able to afford PLEXes for two, but is that an option that is financially feasible for the majority? I don't think so.

So the people who are willing to throw cash at the game rule? Well, they will if Pay For Skills is implemented.


...Yeah, this is the wrong place to bring this up. So why did you? There are other threads dedicated to that particular subject.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Jysella Halcyon
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#500 - 2013-05-26 03:39:55 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:
tbh if you said you wont ever get rid of the bin folder bypass id never post on this subject again.

its a solution that im happy with and offers me the functionality that I need

I can't make that statement, because it wouldn't be true. At some undetermined point in the future it will be removed. I can however restate what I've already posted and say that it won't go away until the functionality you're making use of and desire is available in the EVE Launcher.


Then it will never go away. The functionality that I use and desire in the launcher is this: When I click the Eve icon, it runs in the background, quickly verifies my install and checks for available patches. If it finds one, it renders a foreground window to let me know why I am delayed in entering the game. If not, it never manifests itself visibly and launches Eve. It gets me to an immersive multimedia experience (the game) as quickly as possible.

With the launcher of a week ago, this was the norm. I had the option of configuring it to remain open to allow me to launch extra clients for my 5 accounts, but declined because I prefer to have a launcher interrupt my flow from "click Eve" to "in the universe" as seldom as possible.

Last weekend, using the official launch method, my time to that immesive experience was well under 10 seconds. Click button, login screen opens with its gorgeous visuals and Eve music and "I was there". This weekend it can take up to a minute using the supported method, or I can have that same wondrous experience by using a shortcut to exefile.exe.

I don't like having to backdoor this, but it's by far preferable for me to long delay before I hit something that really feels like Eve going through the new launcher. Before, that moment was the login screen. With SSO? I suppose I'll give the benefit of the doubt and say it's when my hangar loads in station, but I'm not in an "I was there" kind of place until I've undocked.

I understand that any non-trivial software is buggy, and that there's really no way to catch them all. I'm even okay with running into them and doing my part to get the programmers what they need (My other box runs Debian's 'Sid' distro and sends in bug reports when I find them). But to go from something worthy of Eve's place in an exhibition of modern art to something that gives me flashbacks to my high-school days on myspace.... is not a good direction.

This is not about the change in flow of logging in multiple accounts (though I did power-of-two a fifth a couple weeks ago and haven't multiboxed since the launcher was released). I really don't care about the metrics, or the technical details because I'm not a dev and I haven't seen the code. I care about the experience, and that is what has suffered the most from this drive for SSO in a standalone launcher with various integrated services.

Do you have any thoughts on the design choice to move the game launch from an immersive experience in itself to being yet another web browser, given these concerns?