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Issues, Workarounds & Localization

 
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The new launcher and the web server issues on the 21st of May: FAQ and update thread

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MaRU2760 133
Unit 439
#461 - 2013-05-25 18:03:14 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
To all the people who say they're going to unsubscribe over added effort to log in or similar issues (not talking to the people who can't get into the game at all):

Do you seriously believe that this threat actually means anything in this context? Do you not realize that the more you use it over such trivial matters (especially when there are easy workarounds) the more it weakens your position in the future?

Sometimes I wonder how many people who threaten to unsubscribe actually end up doing it.


After Incarna, I shut down three of my 5 accounts. I didn't totally unsubscribe, but I never threatened to, either.
Sarmatiko
#462 - 2013-05-25 18:04:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarmatiko
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Sarmatiko wrote:
While concerns about user security are valid, please let me worry about my own security.

And who do you come running to whenever your account gets accessed by someone without your knowledge or consent?
That's right, CCP.

Once again for my "argue-all-the-things" buddy: let me worry about my own local password storage safety.
It's not like CCP currently protecting end-users from protocol sniffing, backdors and other nasty things like armed robbers. It's not like they forcing us to change passwords regularly, increasing overall accounts security.

It's 2013 already, and SSO thing is here. There is a lot of additional things that increase security for regular users, without relying on password insecurity: email authorization (currently annoys me works in GW2, each time my subnet changes), mobile authentication (FF 2011 tokens, anyone?), SMS authentication, you name it.

And yes, if for some reason someone hacks my account I will go straight to support. And they will help me to resolve this issue, even if I'm total idiot without computer knowledge using "123456" password for all my accounts - because this is what support do.
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
#463 - 2013-05-25 18:07:03 UTC
A slimmed down expert user version should be generated. People will complain until its part of the launcher.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Niding
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#464 - 2013-05-25 18:09:31 UTC
Threats to "emorageQuit!!111" isnt effective, I agree.

But if something isnt designed or performing as it was intended, or with secondary effects not realised on release, then
its only natural to post on this forum to make CCP aware of it.
Making a trip to Iceland to convey your misgivings might be a bit over the top.
(possibly land you a restraining order).
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#465 - 2013-05-25 18:10:31 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:
tbh if you said you wont ever get rid of the bin folder bypass id never post on this subject again.

its a solution that im happy with and offers me the functionality that I need

I can't make that statement, because it wouldn't be true. At some undetermined point in the future it will be removed. I can however restate what I've already posted and say that it won't go away until the functionality you're making use of and desire is available in the EVE Launcher.
I don't think I've been anything but blunt through this and the announcement thread, so why stop now?
This promise should have been said before you even mentioned taking the bin/ExeFile bugfix away.
At least some of my criticism would have been irrelevant in that case.

You asked before what I saw as problems with the launcher. I think my way of explaining it would be to say what I desire of a launcher, what I don't want in a launcher, and what I can't accept in a launcher.

I want the launcher to update my game (preferably fast, which is why I thought the peer-2-peer thing was nice); launch my game; give me access to repair tools. The launcher itself should be 1-click-done once I have started the launcher from Windows. I understand from a company perspective you also want news articles/dev blogs/patch notes etc., and although I personally don't need that and would disable it if I had the chance, I see no issues with it.
What I don't want in a launcher is attempts to sell me anything, or load (or dependency on) anything from the web except actual game updates. These things have nothing to do with launching the game, and any sort of delay here is a clear-cut nuisance.
What I can't accept in a launcher is social media (fb, twit, YT, myspace, G+, linkedin etc etc etc), and any extra clicks that are in the way of my use of the launcher: launching the game. The launcher should not do anything once I have launched the game.

If you build the launcher into the game (As it was when the login frontpage was the updater) then it should be even fewer clicks. For a main (From starting the launcher from Windows), it should be type password, enter (confirm pw), enter (select default char). For an alt, 1 click before that to select which one. Here, people who set their system up to handle separate clients should always only have the mains' login sequence.
Currently, the login page does that, but the launcher doesn't.
This is a question of design, the point I have contended.

Other things, such as 2 EULA accepts required per account per launcher, or verifying the client for 30-60 seconds, or "you seem offline, you can still rage on the EVE-O forums!", or memory bloat... to me seems like bugs that would be ironed out no matter which launcher design philosophy was used. They shouldn't happen, but ... well, software will always be buggy on first release.

Some time (I think FanFest 2011 or 2012) CCP talked about securing login services, master accounts etc. These issues would be meaningful to change the login procedures to accomodate. Right now, all I saw was that you took something that should be so simple that any idiot could do it, and turn it into a slow, meaningless caricature of a launcher, then promised to make it awesome later, and remove the workaround to escape from the launcher.
I don't think anyone should be surprised at the outrage.

With the promise you made above, however, I'll be waiting to see what you do, not what you say.
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#466 - 2013-05-25 18:20:38 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
And who do you come running to whenever your account gets accessed by someone without your knowledge or consent?
That's right, CCP.
Statements like "let me worry about my own security" aren't enough to simply remove liability, nor are they or any disclaimers or agreements going to stop people from petitioning if their accounts are or are suspected to be compromised.

If someone gets remote access to locally stored password for EVE on my PC, they probably also have access to all other locally stored passwords (Browser-remembered, saved somewhere, cookies to mails with them etc), and if someone has physical access they could probably access my bank details among other things. In the first case, EVE would be #5 or #6 on my worries, while in the second case it would be at the bottom along with forum accounts or steam-games (or equivalents).
MaRU2760 133
Unit 439
#467 - 2013-05-25 18:23:36 UTC
Kyjen Geashi wrote:
oh and the offline installer does not work at this moment. Not sure why but i'm in limbo till thay fix there install server and file structure because i should have problems downloads of any files needed for EVE


We're not ignoring you. It's just that your problem is a little different than most. I had to uninstall/reinstall to get back into the game, but I didn't have any problems.

Sorry.
Par'Gellen
#468 - 2013-05-25 18:27:55 UTC
MaRU2760 133 wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
To all the people who say they're going to unsubscribe over added effort to log in or similar issues (not talking to the people who can't get into the game at all):

Do you seriously believe that this threat actually means anything in this context? Do you not realize that the more you use it over such trivial matters (especially when there are easy workarounds) the more it weakens your position in the future?

Sometimes I wonder how many people who threaten to unsubscribe actually end up doing it.


After Incarna, I shut down three of my 5 accounts. I didn't totally unsubscribe, but I never threatened to, either.

I did something similar after the Uniborked Inventory patch. After being subjected to the jackassery and indifference of a certain CCP employee here on the forums I decided it was time for a break. So I let my subs run dry on all 4 accounts. Only reason I came back almost a year later was for the friends I missed.

I am SO glad that certain guy hasn't decided to weigh in with his numbskullery here yet. He'd probably have me quitting again for sure.

Thank you Atropos for being a civil and understanding dev. It really goes a long way.

"To err is human", but it shouldn't be the company motto...

MaRU2760 133
Unit 439
#469 - 2013-05-25 18:31:01 UTC
Par'Gellen wrote:
Here is an idea for alleviating the launcher's python memory bloat issue. How about adding into the launcher the ability to enter specific client path and startup information for each account? This way you can launch multiple clients from different paths from the same launcher and would be a very simple thing to do. It could easily be coded in an afternoon (if that).


How about cutting out all the bling? It's a launcher for chrisake. It's a launcher after all. It should launch, ONLY.
Niding
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#470 - 2013-05-25 18:42:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Niding
MaRU2760 133 wrote:
Par'Gellen wrote:
Here is an idea for alleviating the launcher's python memory bloat issue. How about adding into the launcher the ability to enter specific client path and startup information for each account? This way you can launch multiple clients from different paths from the same launcher and would be a very simple thing to do. It could easily be coded in an afternoon (if that).


How about cutting out all the bling? It's a launcher for chrisake. It's a launcher after all. It should launch, ONLY.


Its not exactly hard to understand why they do this.

When advertisement interrupts you TV movie its not cause the TV program caster thinks you LOVE to watch ads,
but cause they make money off it.
The comparison can be made to this new launcher, tho the money gains are indirect.

Makes sense from a economic point of view, but not when performance is screwed around with, pissing off your current
customers.

Also; I think its reasonably safe to assume a fair % of the customers do not read EVE-O forum regularly, nor aware
of channels like Twitch; so reaching them thru a launcher that you are FORCED to look at each time you want to log
into the game is a reasonably good idea on paper, IF it had been implimented well. Which it so far hasnt.
Sarmatiko
#471 - 2013-05-25 18:52:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarmatiko
Niding wrote:
Also; I think its reasonably safe to assume a fair % of the customers do not read EVE-O forum regularly, nor aware of channels like Twitch; so reaching them thru a launcher that you are FORCED to look at each time you want to log
into the game is a reasonably good idea on paper, IF it had been implimented well. Which it so far hasnt.

I find those launcher ads unattractive and hardly noticeable in comparison to old login screen one-time advertisements.
OFC only CCP have click metrics and they may show other picture, but I still think that launcher ads will have less informative value than old splashes.
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
#472 - 2013-05-25 19:00:12 UTC
Sarmatiko wrote:
Niding wrote:
Also; I think its reasonably safe to assume a fair % of the customers do not read EVE-O forum regularly, nor aware of channels like Twitch; so reaching them thru a launcher that you are FORCED to look at each time you want to log
into the game is a reasonably good idea on paper, IF it had been implimented well. Which it so far hasnt.

I find those launcher ads unattractive and hardly noticeable in comparison to old login screen one-time advertisements.
OFC only CCP have click metrics and they may show other picture, but I still think that launcher ads will have less informative value than old splashes.

They really need a chat channel linked to the location information menu that they can use for live events, in eve announcements and dev blog information awareness. That would get some back lash also however.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Cas Mania
We - are peaceful people
#473 - 2013-05-25 19:00:29 UTC
Looks like it's time to start shooting a monument again.
Par'Gellen
#474 - 2013-05-25 19:03:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Par'Gellen
Niding wrote:
Also; I think its reasonably safe to assume a fair % of the customers do not read EVE-O forum regularly

This is true. I flew through a heavily populated system earlier and people were talking in local about getting 50k skillpoints and most of them had no idea where they came from or why. I also found it interesting that they were talking about issues with the launcher as well. Apparently none of them had visited the forums at all.

"To err is human", but it shouldn't be the company motto...

Kyjen Geashi
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#475 - 2013-05-25 19:04:58 UTC
ok i might have fixed my problem. I did a system restore and now an EVE repair witch i was not able to do befor
Hagbard Solaris
Omega Eternal
#476 - 2013-05-25 19:08:27 UTC
It just occured to me that I am an old man and have a different view of the world than the presumably much younger people who are employed by CCP. While I believe that doing quality work makes me a winner, younger people believe that participating in something should earn them a trophy.

So, CCP Devs, here is your Participation Trophy

Now please realise that in the Adult World, people expect you to do your job well, provide quality products and services, and to make real improvements - not to break things now with a vague promise of something better in the future, ignore customer feedback, and make excuses for shoddy work.

What if New Eden was a virtual prison and we're convicts in a prison pod somehwere?

MaRU2760 133
Unit 439
#477 - 2013-05-25 19:14:34 UTC
Another thing that bothers me about this whole horror show, and I think I mentioned it in the other thread, is that many of the people who have had problems have had DIFFERENT problems.

It only took me 4 hours to get back into the game, and I feel I was one of the lucky ones, because there are still some that can't play at all.

I realize that several different OSes are represented, with different settings, but still, how could that happen?

Some people have been able to fix it with the Repair tool, but that didn't work at all for me.

Some people got it to work by downloading and installing the update manually. That didn't work for me either.

Some people lost their settings, even after a 'fix' for that was posted.

Some people suffer from erratic launcher behavior, even after 4 days.

I've never tried to write anything for use on more than 500 computers, all with the same OS, but they were not configured the same, and didn't have the same software packages on them. I've never even heard of a mess like this before. What happened?

Dizirgee
UnaLaLuna Inc.
#478 - 2013-05-25 19:29:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Dizirgee
Just few points for new launcher.
1. where is logon progress bar? I hit login and there is no indication if launcher is contacting servers, or it is just lagging or basically if there is any work being done or not.
2. launcher is slow and without any indication if it is doing something or not. I hit play and wait 15-20seconds till game is actually started.
3. I see some excuses for removing log off button but seriosly I dont get it. As you said login is done on launcher and is using SSO so it should be easy now to retain log off or "change char" button. Which would take you to character selection screen (on same account)
4. 130MB ram use by launcher?
5. did i say it slow like hell? It takes considerably more seconds than old launcher to start and to show login prompt.


edit: I was just wondering why there was "Georgia" logo on launcher update screen. Was it your american brothers responsible for development of this mess? :)
edit2: thanks Neevor Airuta for hint. exefile works nice and it is even remembering cached user names unlike new launcher. Not to mention like its 20x times faster to login to game now.
Neevor Airuta
Grey Horizon
#479 - 2013-05-25 19:35:29 UTC
I see the discussion is going well, will probably end somewhere around 50 pages or more.
But there is one downside to it: it's still just talk, and in forums words are cheap, as they can be ignored, unread, unanswered or whole topics locked.

As such I'd like to offer two posibble actions:

1: Change your eve lauching shortcuts to exefile.exe and ignore launcher altogether.
CCP Atropos claimed there are ways to differentiate between people launching eve with launcher or exefile. Let them see we don't use launcher, as a measurable sign it's broken.
And if you need to update your client do that with repair tool. Works faster and more reliably.

2: If for some unfathomable reason you need to have launcher, but consider it's performance unacceptable file a bug report.
As mentioned in topic about gas clouds causing slowdowns performance issues qualify as bugs, so file them as such every time you are unhappy with new launcher. Few thousand bug reports in a week should make a nice, noticeable data sample.
This way is superior to whining about in forums, because on the other side of bug report is customer service whose job is to read all of them, categorise them, and send them to proper dev team to fix. And include them in proper statistics.

Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#480 - 2013-05-25 19:39:19 UTC
Dizirgee wrote:
edit: I was just wondering why there was "Georgia" logo on launcher update screen. Was it your american brothers responsible for development of this mess? :)
Actually, I am pretty sure it has been on the CCP installers since I started late 2010.

@ Neevor Airuta: You're a genius. <3