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[Odyssey Feedback Request] Team Super Friends - Probe Scanning and You

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Noztra Ernaga
m o t i o n
#1221 - 2013-05-20 10:23:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Noztra Ernaga
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
All strategic cruisers have been excluded from those plexes.


I can somehow accept that in case Battlecruisers are still allowed. Too bad I do not want to fly that boring Drake ship, so for me it means to skill something new and accept 2 month of Tengu training as time wasted :(

You might say its not much, but for me it is, my toon is relatively new with just 15M SP, so this really hurts.
Sarmatiko
#1222 - 2013-05-20 10:27:55 UTC
Noztra Ernaga wrote:

By adapting you mean to change ships and create the same pressure on 4/10 in high-sec? How is the situation changing? Just because it wont be Tengu but other ship, the problem gets solved by miracle? No, in a few months people will start a new forum whine being beaten in 4/10 competition by other ship used by high-sec exploration veterans.

Yes!
So don't cry, change ships (to Cerberus, it will be easy) and "create the same pressure".
But looking at the amount of tears it's obvious that Tengu was the key to that pressure, because suddenly you don't have ship scan bonus anymore and now you need to compete with all those "peasants on T1\T2".

I, for one, welcome your leave from highsec exploration Bear
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1223 - 2013-05-20 10:27:57 UTC
Sylvia Nardieu wrote:
DED4's are beginner complexes? I thought those would be DED1 and 2's but hey...


Let's see.

- Located in High Sec
- Enemies are BC and below (With the exception of the 1 BS in Serpentis 4/10)
- Can be done by 4 week old Newbie without breaking a sweat

What would you call it?
Durzel
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1224 - 2013-05-20 10:29:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Durzel
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Sylvia Nardieu wrote:
DED4's are beginner complexes? I thought those would be DED1 and 2's but hey...


Let's see.

- Located in High Sec
- Enemies are BC and below (With the exception of the 1 BS in Serpentis 4/10)
- Can be done by 4 week old Newbie without breaking a sweat

What would you call it?

A broken plex.

To be honest imo 4/10s dropping 300m in loot in highsec when it's just BC and below in the plex is disproportionate risk/reward, T3s or not. It's not like they're even that uncommon.

4/10s should be equivalent to one of the level 4 Worlds Collide rooms, minus the instant aggro. Make the plex more than just "burn to the satellite as fast as you can whilst tanking the anemic damage from everything on grid"
Noztra Ernaga
m o t i o n
#1225 - 2013-05-20 10:32:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Noztra Ernaga
Sarmatiko wrote:

So don't cry, change ships (to Cerberus, it will be easy) and "create the same pressure".
But looking at the amount of tears it's obvious that Tengu was the key to that pressure, because suddenly you don't have ship scan bonus anymore and now you need to compete with all those "peasants on T1\T2".

I, for one, welcome your leave from highsec exploration Bear


With the new modules and more comfortable scanning? I can guarantee you that I will be able to scan sites with any decent ship with enough mid-slots as effective as now with a Tengu :)

When someone uses second account and scans with a Heron/Buzzard and then warps to a 4/10 with a dmg specialized ship, it is ok? Just because he/she pays for two accounts, its acceptable? :)

FYI: I have never been a Tengu 4/10 cherry-picker.

I use Tengu because its fun and I can alternate between high and low with the same ship by just carrying required modules and subsystems in my cargo.
Sylvia Nardieu
Super Serious Fight Club
#1226 - 2013-05-20 10:35:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Sylvia Nardieu
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:

What would you call it?

- Located in High Sec

Misplaced

Quote:
- Enemies are BC and below (With the exception of the 1 BS in Serpentis 4/10)

I mostly do Serp, so obviously others are poorly balanced.

Quote:
Can be done by 4 week old Newbie without breaking a sweat

4 weeks w/o breaking a sweat? You serious? Please send me an evemon plan for that char.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1227 - 2013-05-20 10:37:47 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:

With the new skill requirements, it will become easier to specialize in tech2 ships, giving newer players more variety in ships. At some point you have to draw the line for what ships you want to allow in the complexes. It seems fine to me to not allow cruisers with battleship tank/dps in the beginner complexes.


Apparently you did not look at the training time of the new skill requirements, they are about the same amount of time now as they were before. How does that make it any easier?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1228 - 2013-05-20 11:28:41 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Apparently you did not look at the training time of the new skill requirements, they are about the same amount of time now as they were before. How does that make it any easier?


You are right, they switched the prerequisites to something more useful. My bad.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1229 - 2013-05-20 11:37:04 UTC
Sylvia Nardieu wrote:
4 weeks w/o breaking a sweat? You serious? Please send me an evemon plan for that char.


I don't use evemon, but a passive Drake with meta4 tank/launchers will be more than enough for 4/10s and doesn't take an eternity to train. Don't nail me on the 4 weeks, my point is that these complexes are very easy to do.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1230 - 2013-05-20 11:55:06 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Apparently you did not look at the training time of the new skill requirements, they are about the same amount of time now as they were before. How does that make it any easier?


You are right, they switched the prerequisites to something more useful. My bad.

None of the new skills are any more useful than the old ones, with the exception of assault ships which had no bearing on the effectiveness of HAC.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1231 - 2013-05-20 12:02:31 UTC
A thought of DED complexes, loot, location and farming.
The eve wiki states that 1/10 Frigates 2/10 Destroyers 3/10 Cruisers 4/10 Battlecruisers 5/10 Battleships.
What if the were true to the point of exclusion, a 4/10 would only allow Battlecruisers and Advanced Battlecruisers in, a 5/10 would only allow Battleships and advanced Battleships, ect.
The loot tables would be set on the security status they were in, High C-type modules, low B-type modules, empire null a-type modules, sov X-type modules.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1232 - 2013-05-20 12:07:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Sipphakta en Gravonere
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
None of the new skills are any more useful than the old ones, with the exception of assault ships which had no bearing on the effectiveness of HAC.


Recons: Cloaking IV is immensely useful, especially for the Force recons, the Covert Ops skill isn't
HICs: Grav Physics IV is required for the Bubblegen, so adding it as prereq is more useful than Weapon Upgrades V
Command Ships: The Warfare skills are more useful for a CS than the HAC/Logistics skill
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1233 - 2013-05-20 12:09:31 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
None of the new skills are any more useful than the old ones, with the exception of assault ships which had no bearing on the effectiveness of HAC.


Recons: Cloaking IV is immensely useful, especially for the Force recons, the Covert Ops squill isn't
HICs: Grav Physics IV is required for the Bubblegen, so adding it as prereq is more useful than Weapon Upgrades V
Command Ships: The Warfare skills are more useful for a CS than the HAC/Logistics skill

My apologies, I was looking at Heavy Assault ships.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#1234 - 2013-05-20 12:30:52 UTC
4/10s will allow BCs and Orcas, but not a T3? .... That's just silly and makes no sense.

I completely understand the problem with T3s in hi-sec. I use a Tengu all the time, and it is utterly broken for hi-sec exploration. But this is a typical "old-skool CCP" hamfisted fix. Instead of addressing the problem, they smash the symptom as hard as they can with a nerfbat. The answer is simple. Just lower the rewards in hi-sec and increase them in low/null. There is no reason at all that 500mil mods should be dropping in hi-sec. None. If you remove the ridiculously profitability, then the experienced T3 pilots aren't going to spend time probing them down, thus allowing the up-and-coming noob to cut his teeth on hi-sec plexes.

And note that I say this as somebody who is a posterboy for poor sportsmanship in hi-sec exploration. I will jump into a site some poor scrub is doing and race past him to the end. I will steal juicy mods from a faction wreck and dare the poor schmuck to engage me. And I will do it with no qualms whatsoever. Cuz this is EvE. There is nice expensive loot to be had in hi-sec, and without hesitation I will stomp on the little guy to take it from him. But remove that nice loot, and I'll go elsewhere.
Sylvia Nardieu
Super Serious Fight Club
#1235 - 2013-05-20 12:35:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Sylvia Nardieu
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:

I don't use evemon, but a passive Drake with meta4 tank/launchers will be more than enough for 4/10s and doesn't take an eternity to train. Don't nail me on the 4 weeks, my point is that these complexes are very easy to do.


All right, let's say I agree that 4/10's might be fairly easy (doable a better word?) even for a relatively new character, but how is that fact in any way related with these changes? If anything, it only serves to show how unnecessary changes are since that would implicate that one can get to a level playing field fairly quickly. First and foremost, we should ask what is the problem being addressed with these changes and whether it is being solved. Presumably, the problem is farming and storming of these plexes by older/more experienced characters. Currently they are using tech 3's for that, but they could use pirate or tech2 cruisers for what is worth and still strom em faster then your average newbie. So, you see, the problem is not about whether tech 3's should be allowed into those sites, it's about removing or at least reducing the possibility of farming playstyle.

Are they adressing that problem? I don't think so.

There are many different (and more creative) options for solving farming issues without reducing usability of tech 3's in low sec, I hope that my previous posts have provided some of those potential solutions. Unfortunately, it seems that making one variable random (sig strength) is harder then removing a potential state from another variable (tech3 access to these plexes), without considering wider implications of such moves. Again, I'm all against farming - I was in favour of removal of static deds from high and lowsec and think that it would be best to prevent people from filtering signatures in order to find juicy stuff as soon as possible. Make explorers sweat it out in order to find good stuff, but also let them use the best tools out there. I mean, while at it why not remove virtue implants, sister probes and modules or anything else that can provide 'unfair' advantage. Its not like tech 3's are premium items available only to selected few. If you're serious about exploration, you'll eventually train for a tech 3, the same way you'll train for a guardian if you want to provide armor fleet logistics. Its simple as that.
MIkhail Illiad
Fevered Imaginings
#1236 - 2013-05-20 12:58:14 UTC
CCP, what problem does this fix?

Why would you make changes to the probes themselves to make them easier to use, then eliminate the need to use them in the first place by having the sites show up on a UI? I understand that they then have to be probed down, but the very fact that these things display on your HUD as you jump into a system seems to be totally contradictory to the idea of exploration.

There once was an interesting signature here... It has long since disapeared. 

Noztra Ernaga
m o t i o n
#1237 - 2013-05-20 13:33:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Noztra Ernaga
The problem is that I do not know what to do next.

Replacing my Tengu with a Drake is indeed a solution unless they decide to ban BCs later as well...

It is not so easy when precious time is involved (skill training). For me this is a game breaking change from exploration perspective and am affraid of another attack from the devs in the future. I don't have 60M SP and cannot fly every other ship, so my Tengu training is a complete waste. Got sick of missions, dedicated over two months of training to Tengu to be able to start with exploration and now it's useless. If I had known this, I would have trained Drake from the start and would have ended up with a ship sutiable for high-sec and low-sec. This exactly was my Tengu (high-sec and low-sec exploration ship), but now I am left with only a low-sec boat in my hands, which is probably worse than a Drake for low-sec...

Seems like all that remains now is to go to null with totally gimped damage and do profession sites with your Tengu,... but I am not a huge fan of new profession sites mechanics.
Durzel
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1238 - 2013-05-20 13:48:14 UTC
If you can fly a Tengu you can fly a Gila, which is more than capable of doing 4/10s. Stop acting like the world is ending.
Tzu Wu
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1239 - 2013-05-20 16:42:14 UTC
Durzel wrote:
If you can fly a Tengu you can fly a Gila, which is more than capable of doing 4/10s. Stop acting like the world is ending.


That isnt the point
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#1240 - 2013-05-20 17:29:58 UTC
Whats wrong with "farming" 4/10s? People farm missions and incursions in hisec with any ship they want. They generate ISK out of thin air while doing so. 4/10s in certain areas of space can drop modules that the market has deemed are worth 400-500mil. So what. So people running those sites are traveling around, competing with each other, and then interacting with the market. Rather than sitting around generating ISK at their leisure. Sounds like the least broken form of hisec PvE to me.

Its also fun. You will not find a race to the loot in lowsec. Just sitting around cloaked wasting time, or getting ganked. Not as exciting or fun. Not conducive to those with little play time.

You can't balance the game on what prices modules sell for on the market. Prices change and are governed by several completely unrelated factors. If you move 4/10s to lowsec for example, its not going to change the fact that nobody cares about 4/10s outside of Guristas and Angels. If you ban T3s, you're mostly just banning the Tengu, nobody is running the sought after 4/10s in a Proteus or a Legion if they don't want to lose sites. And as I stated before, I can beat Tengus to loot in 4/10s, Tengus are just popular because they are convenient. They aren't so hot at missions anymore, they're crap for incursions, and they're banned from exploration. I feel bad for people that want to fly Tengus in hisec. They've finally been made completely useless in hisec in a backwards effort to balance out... competition? popularity? fun? convenience? I have no idea...

A unique situation has arisen based on value that the players/market have assigned to certain items, creating fierce competition and fun PvE that isn't focused on shooting gobs of red crosses, or marred by mixing direct PvP with PvE and all the problems that brings, and people want to flatten it out and make things more uniform. Straight