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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Gallente

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#261 - 2013-04-08 19:48:14 UTC
Edd Nicholls wrote:
I think these changes make Gallente have a pretty bad line-up. The Dominix is now clearly inferior to the proposed Armageddon. I never had issues with range or tracking of drones and it will lack drone control range to make much use of the range bonus to sentry drones. The Mega I guess will fill the hole left by the hype as a shield gank ship but I still think there is room for a buffer fit armour ship which the new look mega will not perform as well in. The hype is now pretty much good for nothing in my eyes. It will almost certainly underperform dual ASB Rohks and Mealstroms and offer pretty much no utility in its mids now to compensate. If you are going to persist with making it an active armour ship then at the minimum it needs more PG.



In fact the dominix is the best sniper of gallente now :P


5 sentry drones with 4 drone damage augumentors and insange range :P

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Lubomir Penev
Prey Drive
#262 - 2013-04-08 19:48:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Lubomir Penev
So no good option for RR armor gangs, needs to be a turret platform and neither the Mega with its gimped tank nor the Hyperion will do...

That's it, after 7 years, got to train Amarr.... Or ragequit, dunno yet...

Also, no one in its right mind would fly a domi over an Armageddon now...

Congratulation, you killed Gallente.

Also, diaf
Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
#263 - 2013-04-08 19:51:30 UTC
Ughgh where to begin.

First i read the other threads. I wanted to save Galente for last so that i'd be awed by some sweet rebalancing love. But instead Shocked

I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt Rise that you don't have a hate on for Gal. The Navy Vex and Exeq changes are super sweet. You definitely had your game on for that.

Perhaps since then you've had some bad dug up sheep head for Torrablot.

Hype: As mentioned it had a ' very ' limited use before. Didn't fit with a single null fleet doctrine, was of limited utility in most low sec fights. Didn't pve very well.

You've succeeded in making it worse however. It was slow, bulky, and 100% dependent on cap boosters before. Nothing has changed except, it's now gimped to fit the very cap boosters it needs to survive at the price of loosing a web or other critical mod.
But wait you say ! It got a low slot Smile You can fit a 1600 plate now Big smile. Exxxcept, we didnt give it any pg for that. Ohh ohhh you can put a resist on. And maybe be half as good as a Babbon with a resist bonus. Exxxcept , the Babbon has almost Six Thousand more base pg than a Hype. The only other bs with pg as crap as the Hype is the Rokh, which gets a RESIST bonus. And it uses ASB's which use cap boosters, but no cap.

+25 Bandwidth, +75 drone bay, +1500-2000 Pg, Drop a high, put the mid back and keep the low. Adjust the dps bonus to fit. Get rid of the useless rep bonus and GIVE IT A HP BONUS ! Then it can tank in an equivalent manner to the Babbon with 1 less low.
luredivino
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#264 - 2013-04-08 19:51:48 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Edd Nicholls wrote:
I think these changes make Gallente have a pretty bad line-up. The Dominix is now clearly inferior to the proposed Armageddon. I never had issues with range or tracking of drones and it will lack drone control range to make much use of the range bonus to sentry drones. The Mega I guess will fill the hole left by the hype as a shield gank ship but I still think there is room for a buffer fit armour ship which the new look mega will not perform as well in. The hype is now pretty much good for nothing in my eyes. It will almost certainly underperform dual ASB Rohks and Mealstroms and offer pretty much no utility in its mids now to compensate. If you are going to persist with making it an active armour ship then at the minimum it needs more PG.



In fact the dominix is the best sniper of gallente now :P


5 sentry drones with 4 drone damage augumentors and insange range :P


at the cost of several hundred dps.
Grideris
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#265 - 2013-04-08 19:51:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Grideris
Adriel Malakai wrote:
Saul Hyperion wrote:

Drop the utility high, restore the low and the Megathron is heading down the right track.


But I love the neut on my mega Cry


So do I. I would be sad to see it go. I'm also sad to see the 5th heavy drone go. Yes, the ROF bonus means you'll get more synergy with tracking bonus from the hull, but I'll often find that DPS is better projected by my drones anyway. Plus it's iconic for the Megathron to field 5 heavy drones/sentries, not to mention that it reinforces the notion that the Gallente are the guys that wear the biggest drone hat (I'm looking at you Amarr).

I honestly think that the best thing you can do is to swap around the attack/combat tags for the Megathron and Hyperion. Then start balancing from there. I realise that the rest of the racial line ups have taken their attack ships from the (soon to be mothballed) tier 2 line, but since we're removing tiers, why should that matter?

I must admit I am sad to see the Domi lose it's Hybrid damage bonus. I'm a little more worried about the Armageddon muscling in on it's territory and more or less making it obsolete. I'm hoping the sentry changes you guys are hinting at will give a few more points the the Dominix.

Hyperion needs the 5th mid to work as an active tank platform. Not unless there's some other major changes to active armour tanking in the works as well. Extra powergrid would also be very welcome so you can actually fit with dual reps. (Well, that or reduction on PG usage of large reps)

http://www.dust514.org - the unofficial forum for everything DUST 514 http://www.dust514base.com -** the** blog site with everything else DUST 514 you need
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#266 - 2013-04-08 19:54:13 UTC
Hello Rise,

I’d like to preface this with a word or two about myself – I am a Megathron pilot, I have flown them solo and in fleets for 9 years, somewhat approaching 50% of my Career kills are in a blaster-fit Megathron flying solo in Curse between 2006-09, so I think you’ll understand where I’m coming from…. On to the proposed changes:

CCP Rise wrote:

Hyperion:

The Hyperion in a tight spot. We can acknowledge that for the moment active armor tanking is struggling to find a place. We know that many of you would be happier to have the Hyperion lose this bonus and pick up something more practical in today's Eve. However, we're committed to helping armor find its place, and so, to keep continuity with the rest of the Gallente line-up, the Hyp will keep its current bonuses.

It will be gaining a low slot (giving up a mid), hopefully making its purpose as a pure brawler more realistic.

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% Large Hybrid Turret damage
+7.5% Armor Repair amount

Slot layout: 8H, 4M(-1), 7L(+1); 8 turrets , 0 launchers(-1)
Fittings: 15750 PWG, 600 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7500 / 8000 / 8500
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 7200 / 1250s / 4.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .1178 / 100200000 / 16.36s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100 / 100
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 110 / 7
Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 485
Fine, if this is the way you want to keep the Hyperion, then yes, the 7th low slot will help. However, I look forward to the proposals for Armour Tanking 2.0 because there is still a lot to be done. My one comment would be on the Drone bay – Gallente ships as a whole should I feel have larger bays, the whole point of decoupling number and size of drones (bandwidth) from bay size was to allow Gallente ships to carry more without changing relative DPS. With that in mind, I’d say at minimum give the Hyperion +25m3 to open more options.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#267 - 2013-04-08 19:54:18 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:


Megathron:

Let me say it right out - 8 high, 5 mid, 6 low. With the Megathron moving into an attack role explicitly, we felt that it could really focus on its strengths as a flexible, fast, hybrid damage machine. The new slot layout opens options like dual propulsion with microwarp drive as well as microjump drive. It opens options to tank with shield or armor. It offers more ewar resilience or tackle. The sum of all of these examples is a ship that feels more like a tempest, less like a Hyperion. For us, this matches the intended personality of an attack ship, and we hope you agree.

We've also moved some of its damage from drones to the guns by switching the damage bonus to a rate of fire bonus (rate of fire bonus are more efficient because of the way the math works. Think about how a ship with 50% bonus to rate of fire would shoot twice as often, doing double damage. That would be the same as a 100% turret damage bonus). The result is that more of your damage can capitalize on the tracking bonus, at a small penalty to cap need.

As one of Eve's most iconic ships, we expect you to have strong opinions here. Please share them. We're very excited about this version of the ship and hope you are too!

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
+7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed

Slot layout: 8H, 5M(+1), 6L(-1); 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2)
Fittings: 16000 PWG(+500), 550 CPU(+25)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5800(+175) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 122(+7) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100(-25) / 125
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7
Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 380(-20)
The gist is right IMO (turn it into the fast ‘attack’ Battleship), but the execution isn’t quite there. If you want to make the Megathron the fast, flexible ship of the line-up, don’t cripple its ability to fit a perfect balance of armour tank and damage.

Leave it as 8/4/7, drop 1 turret and up the rate of fire bonus to +7.5%. This gives it 9.6 effective turrets, as opposed to your 9.33. Keeping the -25m3 drone bandwidth change, would mean it would do slightly more DPS than currently (my stock 7-gun Ion II fit does 1230 dps; with your changes it will be doing 1228, with my proposal, 1256).

You now have a flexible platform that is still within the core Gallente armour doctrine, but has the flexibility to fit neutralizers, smartbombs, remote rep, Drone Links or a combination of giving it a clear distinction from the Hyperion.

In keeping with the ‘more flexibility attack Battleship’ up the drone bay to 150 m3. I think you can go further on the sig reduction, personally I would say 360 would be closer to the mark.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#268 - 2013-04-08 19:54:25 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

Dominix:

With the Dominix we've abandoned the split weapon bonus (hybrids and drones) and moved it to a fully dedicated drone ship by adding a drone optimal and tracking bonus. We hope that this new bonus will provide a very strong Gallente fleet option in the Dominix, via sentry drones. It will of course also be stronger at short range using heavy drones. As a combat battleship, its received increased hitpoints across the board, increased mass (it got its mass lowered during the hybrid buff), increased cap pool, and increased sig.

We believe this is a very exciting direction for the Dominix, and hope you will too!

I also want to mention here that while the drone system overall needs looking at, we here on the balance team have some short term ideas for helping the usability of sentry drones – no timeframe on them as of yet, but its something we have in mind.

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints
+10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)

Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers
Fittings: 9000 PWG, 600 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7
Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 465(+45)
The Dominix was actually my first Battleship, around April 2004, but I never could really fall in love with the ‘space potato’ so ended up flying Megathrons…

Anyhow, again I can see the direction working, but you are hamstrung on this one without a serious facelift (read: needs structural work) to the drone system, not just to sentries but to every class of drone – the blind orbit mechanics need to go, or be but one option for drone ‘attack’ commands i.e. needs at minimum ‘keep at range’ ‘stop drone’ ‘follow’. More diversity (optimal range/falloff) between racial drones would also be a good starting point.

Having seen the changes to the Armageddon I am concerned about the Dominix’s future role. This is a not insignificant damage reduction and so, just as with the other two, I think more flexibility in terms of bigger drone bay is the solution (or, just don’t make the Armageddon a drone boat – that is 10 years of back story and lore ripped up for the sake of giving the Amarr a drone boat) --> +75 m3 if it is going to be a one-trick drone pony.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#269 - 2013-04-08 19:56:27 UTC
Rise the changes on all races are pretty much OK. It will shake up EVE and that is what is needed. By our nature men kind is afraid of changes so dont succumb to the crybabies. Only thing i d look into it is maybe 1 less high to mega and 1 more low.

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#270 - 2013-04-08 19:56:41 UTC
Saul Hyperion wrote:


As others have said in this post, the new Dominix bonus is pretty awesome, but it kills the utility that the Dominix currently has. I can live with this as split weapons are bad and hopefully drones get changed in the near future to fix their flaws. I maintain that drones are still to vulnerable to being killed/smartbombed and need a better HP bonus on all blaster ships.



The Vexor has split weapons and its a fantastic PvP boat.
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#271 - 2013-04-08 19:56:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Adriel Malakai
Saul Hyperion wrote:
I hate it. Need fitting (and cap, especially with this new RoF bonus) for other things Blink


Does fine on cap, except under heavy neuting pressure. As far as fitting goes, you're trading 6k EHP (T2 plates) and 4km on your point to gain a heavy neut. Amazingly good trade, in my opinion.
Grideris
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#272 - 2013-04-08 20:04:56 UTC
Adriel Malakai wrote:
Saul Hyperion wrote:
I hate it. Need fitting (and cap, especially with this new RoF bonus) for other things Blink


Does fine on cap, except under heavy neuting pressure. As far as fitting goes, you're trading 6k EHP (T2 plates) and 4km on your point to gain a heavy neut. Amazingly good trade, in my opinion.


I run more or less the same thing, except with T2 plates and a medium booster. Do you find the extra cap injection ability is actually useful? My fit gets about 16k more armour HP from the look of things.

Back to the topic at hand: don't touch my utility high on the Mega.

http://www.dust514.org - the unofficial forum for everything DUST 514 http://www.dust514base.com -** the** blog site with everything else DUST 514 you need
Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
#273 - 2013-04-08 20:05:00 UTC
Meathron - There was nothing wrong with it that a bit of pg and a hp buff wouln't fix. It didn't fit in very well with null fleets but at least it was usefull in low and for pve.

Now I don't know. +1 mid makes it a big talos with a maybe not so crappy shield tank. -1 low definitely seems to gimp it for any kinda of armor applications.

On a dual 1600 plate, mag stab + resists fit with neutrons, Maybe, you can drop the mag stab for a resist now and still deal equivalent damage while still tanking. Maybe. The drone bay nerf though ? On the race with undeniably THE worst optimal & falloff. I can perhaps choke down the 100 bandwidth , but 150 drone bay would keep it from coming back up like dead sheep head.
Ashina Sito
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#274 - 2013-04-08 20:06:09 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Welcome to the Tech 1 Battleship rebalance, fasten your seatbelts!


Dominix:

With the Dominix we've abandoned the split weapon bonus (hybrids and drones) and moved it to a fully dedicated drone ship by adding a drone optimal and tracking bonus. We hope that this new bonus will provide a very strong Gallente fleet option in the Dominix, via sentry drones. It will of course also be stronger at short range using heavy drones. As a combat battleship, its received increased hitpoints across the board, increased mass (it got its mass lowered during the hybrid buff), increased cap pool, and increased sig.

We believe this is a very exciting direction for the Dominix, and hope you will too!

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints
+10% Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed (replaces large hybrid turret damage)

Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets , 0 launchers
Fittings: 9000 PWG, 600 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7200(+1731) / 8000(+1789) / 8500(+1859)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6000(+1000) / 1087s / 5.51
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 109 / .1254 / 100250000(+3150000) / 16.88s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 375
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 90 / 7
Sensor strength: 22 Magnetometric Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 465(+45)


/me cries

Well, looks like the Navy Vexor is not gonna change if your going this way with the Domi.

I always flew a Neut Domi so never used it's gun potential, that said removing the damage bonus for hybrids kinda sucks. Once again, just like the Navy Vexor, the key to the Domi was flexibility and the skill bonus change removes that flexibility and pigeon holes it into one role.



CCP Rise wrote:
I also want to mention here that while the drone system overall needs looking at, we here on the balance team have some short term ideas for helping the usability of sentry drones – no timeframe on them as of yet, but its something we have in mind.


Bad play. If drones need a revamp (and they do) then why not hold of the skill changes for the ship until that is done? I get to lose my Hybrid damage bonus (bye bye 1300 DPS gank Domi) and I get a bonus to Sentries which is insufficient to compensate for the loss. "Sometime" in the future drones will get looked at yet meanwhile I am stuck with a knowingly under-performing ship. \0/


Vexor = AWSOME!!
Navy Vexor = Blegh
Domi = Potato shaped Blegh
Rysis Vyvorant
Shadow Legion X
Seriously Suspicious
#275 - 2013-04-08 20:09:07 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
Here's to the dominix; what was once an astounding ship is now mostly shite.

Seriously, if you want to turn the domi into a pure drone boat, the first step is to give it a way to do damage befitting a battleship with drones. The 800ish DPS tops that you're going to get out of it with gardes is terrible, and if you're not going to use it as a gun/drone hybrid then you'll be better off with the geddon.

Maybe replace the damage bonus with a + drone control bonus? 10 Non-damage bonused drones would give it a reasonable amount of damage (+33% over 5 with a damage bonus, or just a hair over 1k DPS with a full set of gardes + 4 DDAs) while making it FEEL like more of a drone boat, rather than the proposed change that makes it feel like a drone/hybrid mix that just got a damage bonus removed.

EDIT:
I also look forward to what happens when you rebalance the ishtar, because the new domi bonuses really are better suited for it.


Good post about the Domi.
Zaffzaff
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#276 - 2013-04-08 20:14:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Zaffzaff
....

You take away a mid on the hype, and tell us to active armor tank it.

Then you remove a low and 5 heavies from the mega, changing the rof bonus so the dps -barely- levels out, all the while gimping it ability to tank or stack dps.

And even still, you remove the utility the domi was famous for, leaving us with a brick with a weapons system that was shoddy to begin with...and you made it worse?

First the myrm/brutix and now this?

Serious question to any ccp dev that's itt: WHY do you HATE the Gallente so god damn much?

For the sake of not only the Gallente, but all the races of EVE, please fire Fozzie and his dev team at the soonest possible convenience.

Thank you.
Nievisis
Ixion Defence Systems
#277 - 2013-04-08 20:19:53 UTC
Hyperion - Attack Battleship

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% Large Hybrid Turret damage
+5 Large Hybrid falloff range

8 turrets, 5 meds, 6 lows, 100/100 drones

"one of the most lethal and versatile gunboats ever to take to the dark skies." The Hype has never lived up to...the hype. It was envisioned as a DPS machine but instead that role is held by the tracking-enhanced Mega. Encourage the use of blasters via a falloff bonus and bring the stats inline with the other Attack BS making it faster, less tanky, and more ganky: the way a blasterboat should be.



The Combat Battleships should provide the backbone of any fleet, for Gallente this means Drones, Hybrids, and Armor. Spidertanking Mega/Domi fleets provide either sniper (railgun/sentry) or brawler (blaster/ogre) options equally well. Optionally these can be refit for large fleets or all out gank and still compete against racial-alternatives. The Mega represents the 2/3rd Guns, 1/3rd Drones split while the Domi provides the inverse.

Megathron - Combat Gunship

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire
+7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed

8 highs(7 turrets), 4 meds, 7 lows, 125/125 drones

Providing a variety of options via the utility high the mega can function equally well in an armor-railgun gang or a blaster-fit spidertanking gatecamp. The dual-damage bonus ensures that the lack of an 8th gun won't hinder its performance.
Bring the stats inline with the other high-end combat battleships (abaddon, rokh, mael) to ensure it is not numerically inferior due to tiers.


Galentte - Combat Droneboat

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+10% Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints
+4% Armor Resist Bonus

6 highs(5 turrets), 5 meds, 7 lows 125/375 drones

Providing bonused Sentries supplemented by Hybrids the domi can dish solid dps while assisting with RR. Alternately, fit up a standard neut domi and cap-nap your way to victory. The domi's key strength has always been its flexibility which should be maintained even while unifying the damage bonuses. Because of this I suggest swapping to a resist bonus which further encourages the droneboat mantra of "tank hard and let the drones eat em." As you mention earlier, resist bonuses are highly sought after for fleets, adding one encourage the dominix's inclusion in armor-bs doctrines and may freshen up the meta.
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#278 - 2013-04-08 20:24:16 UTC
Grideris wrote:
Adriel Malakai wrote:
Saul Hyperion wrote:
I hate it. Need fitting (and cap, especially with this new RoF bonus) for other things Blink


Does fine on cap, except under heavy neuting pressure. As far as fitting goes, you're trading 6k EHP (T2 plates) and 4km on your point to gain a heavy neut. Amazingly good trade, in my opinion.


I run more or less the same thing, except with T2 plates and a medium booster. Do you find the extra cap injection ability is actually useful? My fit gets about 16k more armour HP from the look of things.

Back to the topic at hand: don't touch my utility high on the Mega.


Depends on the situation. If there are any neuts on the field, the extra cap injection is invaluable.
Martin0
Brave Empire Inc.
Brave United
#279 - 2013-04-08 20:29:48 UTC
What i think.

Frigates changes: awesome
Cruiser changes: Awesome
Bc changes: Why both bc have a "solo" bonus and warfare link bonus? Why the brutix can't fit ions and use its utility? Why would anone fly a myrmidon over a propecy?

Battleship changes:
Hyperion: cool, the amarr bs got 33 km neuts and i have still the "solo" bonus with a cap booster LESS. If Armor repairers did use 25% less cap maybe
Megathron: Won't have the ehp o be used in a fleet, won't have the range to be used in fleet.
Dominix: Why would anyone fly it over the armageddon?
William Darkk
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#280 - 2013-04-08 20:35:32 UTC
So now that there's no Gallente ship more useful for anything than another race, can I have the skillpoints I put into Gallente BS V back so I can grab Amarr BS V?

I mean christ, compare the Dominix to the Armageddon and ask which one you'd bring with you on a roam.

Ditto for the Hyperion and the Abaddon.

If I'd known in 2007 that the Amarr were the neut+drones race I'd have rolled Amarr and never looked back.