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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#161 - 2013-04-08 18:59:52 UTC
The new apoc will be HORRIBLY gimped due to capacitor issues.



Also the geddon now steals completely the CURSE and Blood raider ships role!

My curse is now a pile of useless trash !

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#162 - 2013-04-08 19:00:10 UTC
Novacrow wrote:
[
If they addressed cap issues on the new Abaddon and Apoc, then I am all for the changes.

Can't say that this wouldn't be a good thing, lol :P
Alice Saki
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#163 - 2013-04-08 19:02:53 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The new apoc will be HORRIBLY gimped due to capacitor issues.



Also the geddon now steals completely the CURSE and Blood raider ships role!

My curse is now a pile of useless trash !



I disagree about the Curse it's still needed for Kiting Fleets.

FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - Currenly rebuilding gaming machine, I will Return.
Frothgar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#164 - 2013-04-08 19:04:10 UTC
Any chance you could address the issue of BS mass interacting with wormholes while you're on BS? They're just too massive to bring in any gang (You're limited to ~10bs if you want to return)

Battleships are fun and more fleet variety is always fun. I'd just love so way of bringing a viable BS gang through wormholes without leading to cap blobs.
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#165 - 2013-04-08 19:07:40 UTC
I have to object against apoc tracking bonus. As it is now apoc with scorch pulses already has excessive damage projection, this is going to make situation worse. But if you would nerf long range crystals by either increasing cap consumption or reducing tracking I think this apoc tracking bonus would become acceptable. Or maybe problem is in BS sized pulses, maybe they need tracking nerf.

Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows...
Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#166 - 2013-04-08 19:07:46 UTC
Sounds like the Armageddon will become the new Phoon..you will need perfect cap warfare skills, drone skills and missile skills to fly it decently.
With those changes it seems as if Cap Boosters on Amarr and Gallente will become mandatory, so the Geddon would either have to work against the enemy's CB or be against a target that won't care very much about neuting (because of capless weapon systems).
So it will be neuts everywhere but hardly any targets vulnerable to neuting left. Ugh

Have you considered buffing the "controlled bursts" skill? If Cap boosters were no longer the only thing that keeps Amarr and Gallente ships going, their use would become optional, thus giving cap warfare more meaning again.

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.
SkyMeetFire
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#167 - 2013-04-08 19:17:55 UTC  |  Edited by: SkyMeetFire
I like the new Geddon; its exactly what I was hoping for except I sorta hoped for a 15% per level range rather than only 10%. I don't really agree that it is encroaching on the Bhaalgorn - The Bhaal still is the most powerful neuter in the game with 12.25 effective neuts (7 * 1.75). The Geddon just gives us another option, and gives the Amarr line some ability to dictate range in the BS level (because it sure as hell couldn't do it with speed before). Add into it that we now get a fully capable drone boat as well, and finally the Amarr BS line catches up with the other races in versatility.

I like the Apoc change, other than I'm a tad worried about its cap now. Hopefully you'll look into a slight reduction in laser cap use, a buff to the Controlled Bursts Skill, and/or perhaps a slightly larger buff to recharge on the Apoc. The overall reduction is laser cap use will also help the Baddon, which also struggles with its cap massively.

The Baddon change is a little disappointing, but I understand completely its necessity within the current meta. In application, I don't think it will be as drastic as people make it out to be.
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#168 - 2013-04-08 19:20:25 UTC
This thread is absolutely hilarious and a great example of why CCP should be very careful choosing which of its players it should listen to.

There is literally a 50:50 split on both the Apoc and the geddon between "its ruined forever" and "its the new godmode". I'm leaning towards option 2, in both cases. I can really see the Apoc being the anti tier3BC fleet of choice.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#169 - 2013-04-08 19:22:15 UTC
SkyMeetFire wrote:
I like the new Geddon; its exactly what I was hoping for except I sorta hoped for a 15% per level range rather than only 10%. I don't really agree that it is encroaching on the Bhaalgorn - The Bhaal still is the most powerful neuter in the game with 12.25 effective neuts (7 * 1.75). The Geddon just gives us another option, and gives the Amarr line some ability to dictate range in the BS level (because it sure as hell couldn't do it with speed before). Add into it that we now get a fully capable drone boat as well, and finally the Amarr BS line catches up with the other races in versatility.

I like the Apoc change, other than I'm a tad worried about its cap now. Hopefully you'll look into a slight reduction in laser cap use, a buff to the Controlled Bursts Skill, and/or perhaps a slightly larger buff to recharge on the Apoc. The overall reduction is laser cap use will also help the Baddon, which also struggles with its cap massively.

The Baddon change is a little disappointing, but I understand completely its necessity within the current meta. In application, I don't think it will be as drastic as people make it out to be.

You also missed that they are slightly nerfing the cap recharge time on the Apoc, making it REALLY hurt cap wise.
Allison A'vani
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#170 - 2013-04-08 19:23:05 UTC
Beaver Retriever wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Beaver Retriever wrote:
Upon further thought.. The Armageddon might end up being too good for its own good.

No, it doesn't have a neuting amount bonus. But who needs that if you have 100 geddons in fleet?

100+ cap-chaining heavy neut-fit geddons with T2 sentries will be a 50km sphere of instakill (and of course viable beyond that range as well). There's no way for brawlers to kill them, they will just get capped out.

It looks like a really fun fleet concept until you realize that the best counter to this is the same counter all battleship fleets have.. Alphafleet. Yet even more alpha proliferation, which is pretty damn boring.

or just a good stealth bomber fleet, bombs to kill the sentries, torps to kill the ships, hit and run to avoid losses where possible... but all fleet concepts have counters, including, if you take the time to think about it, your alpha fleets.

Absolutely, alphafleet is a very narrow fleet concept that is only really good against other battleship fleets. If faced with tech 3 cruisers it's generally a pile of scrap that's lucky to still be flying.

I don't think it's a fun fleet or even a fleet that should exist. It's boring for everyone involved. Unfortunately the meta dictates it is needed, because if you don't fly it and you decide brawling battleships are more fun, someone else will turn up with rail rokhs or arty maels and alpha you.


Talking about counters... seriously this debate again? If you bring sentry Armageddons, you will literally just get droped by blap dreads and slow cats, but if you actually want a fight, you don't do that. Hence the point of the rokh currently, actually getting a fight and being able to live through the alpha fleet's initial volley. If you bring a t3 fleet the male fleet will just blap your tackle and warp off.
Novacrow
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#171 - 2013-04-08 19:25:42 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
SkyMeetFire wrote:
I like the new Geddon; its exactly what I was hoping for except I sorta hoped for a 15% per level range rather than only 10%. I don't really agree that it is encroaching on the Bhaalgorn - The Bhaal still is the most powerful neuter in the game with 12.25 effective neuts (7 * 1.75). The Geddon just gives us another option, and gives the Amarr line some ability to dictate range in the BS level (because it sure as hell couldn't do it with speed before). Add into it that we now get a fully capable drone boat as well, and finally the Amarr BS line catches up with the other races in versatility.

I like the Apoc change, other than I'm a tad worried about its cap now. Hopefully you'll look into a slight reduction in laser cap use, a buff to the Controlled Bursts Skill, and/or perhaps a slightly larger buff to recharge on the Apoc. The overall reduction is laser cap use will also help the Baddon, which also struggles with its cap massively.

The Baddon change is a little disappointing, but I understand completely its necessity within the current meta. In application, I don't think it will be as drastic as people make it out to be.

You also missed that they are slightly nerfing the cap recharge time on the Apoc, making it REALLY hurt cap wise.


No, hurting the total cap a tad and they are buffing the recharge rate a tad...
Dehval
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#172 - 2013-04-08 19:28:14 UTC
What people think
"Oh wow, this new Geddon will really shake things up. Its now a cheaper Bhaalgorn! I'll make a fleet out of them and Neut all their logi to death. RIP Bhaalgorn, you won't be used anymore."

What will actually happen
"Wait, the range bonus is only 50%? That can't hit anything in standard fleet engagement ranges. Wait? Did you say the Raven neuts just as much and the Abaddon more?! I guess I'll keep using the Bhaalgorn anyways. At least my drones do decent damage, but why am I using a Geddon when the Domi has a drone tracking bonus as well (and almost equal neuting power)?"

Unless you faction fit these Geddons, you will never get to use the neut bonuses because everything save for brawling ships and some cruisers will be out of range. Neither of which you will ever see in major fleets. Logi and EWAR especially so because they will hide 20-50km behind the enemy fleet. Either buff the bonus to at least 20% per level or give the Geddon a Tracking Disruption bonus (that way it would keep the same neut power while being a second EWAR ship). In whatever state that abomination is, it is NOT USEFUL. It only serves the purpose of giving a decent crosstraining ship for Gallente pilots moving to Amarr.

The ship will never see serious use. Give it a Tracking Disrupt Bonus and it might. We could use a second EWAR battleship anyways.

Also, to the guy who said "1200 dps with Megapulse and Drones, yum!". A current T2 geddon does 1252 dps right now with only 3 heat sinks and a flight of Gardes. Tech Two. Faction fit it and give it drone damage amps and you are looking at upwards of 1400-1500 dps.
Novacrow
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#173 - 2013-04-08 19:28:27 UTC
SkyMeetFire wrote:

I like the Apoc change, other than I'm a tad worried about its cap now. Hopefully you'll look into a slight reduction in laser cap use, a buff to the Controlled Bursts Skill, and/or perhaps a slightly larger buff to recharge on the Apoc. The overall reduction is laser cap use will also help the Baddon, which also struggles with its cap massively.

The Baddon change is a little disappointing, but I understand completely its necessity within the current meta. In application, I don't think it will be as drastic as people make it out to be.


An easy way to address the cap issues in one change is to just change the cap use of large energy turrets.
Harrigan VonStudly
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#174 - 2013-04-08 19:30:15 UTC
Aw yeah. I'm liking these proposed changes. Thanks CCP Rise.
AMARR VICTOR!
Allison A'vani
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#175 - 2013-04-08 19:31:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Allison A'vani
Furthermore, I again bring you to the point that nutes are completely useless in actually large fleet fights as 90% of fleet BS fittings have a cap injector anyway due to them being cap unstable by nature (using your MWD, the rokh using high cap usage ammo etc.). If we knew we were going up against heavy nute platforms we would just fit passive resists mods and laugh as you have 1/2 our fleet's dps and are wasting your nutes uselessly. So I AGAIN state that nutes are EXTREMELY circumstantial and completely changing a ship from it's well established role into an extremely nitch role ALREADY filled by ANOTHER BS hull (see the bhaalgorn) is stupid and asking for that ship to fall into obscurity.


Additionally, those of you supporting this change show nothing but subjective reasons why you support it like "isn't that nice, ", "*insert generic Amarr RP message here*," or the always wonderful and we tried it and it failed, sentry BS fleet concepts which do not work due to their: #1 reliance on drones that can be whipped out by bombs or smart bombs, #2 lack of more than 2 or 3 flights of said drones due to drone bay sizes, and #3 the insane immobility of the sentry battleship due to you needing to huddle around your drones.
Athena Maldoran
Doomheim
#176 - 2013-04-08 19:31:14 UTC
What are you doing to the armageddon? LOL
SkyMeetFire
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#177 - 2013-04-08 19:33:44 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
SkyMeetFire wrote:
I like the new Geddon; its exactly what I was hoping for except I sorta hoped for a 15% per level range rather than only 10%. I don't really agree that it is encroaching on the Bhaalgorn - The Bhaal still is the most powerful neuter in the game with 12.25 effective neuts (7 * 1.75). The Geddon just gives us another option, and gives the Amarr line some ability to dictate range in the BS level (because it sure as hell couldn't do it with speed before). Add into it that we now get a fully capable drone boat as well, and finally the Amarr BS line catches up with the other races in versatility.

I like the Apoc change, other than I'm a tad worried about its cap now. Hopefully you'll look into a slight reduction in laser cap use, a buff to the Controlled Bursts Skill, and/or perhaps a slightly larger buff to recharge on the Apoc. The overall reduction is laser cap use will also help the Baddon, which also struggles with its cap massively.

The Baddon change is a little disappointing, but I understand completely its necessity within the current meta. In application, I don't think it will be as drastic as people make it out to be.

You also missed that they are slightly nerfing the cap recharge time on the Apoc, making it REALLY hurt cap wise.


I think you misread it Pelea. From the op:

Quote:
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 6700(-800) / 1002s(-152s) / 6.69 (+.19)


They are BUFFing the recharge rate, not nerfing it. I question if it is enough, however, without any reduction to laser cap usage.
SkyMeetFire
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#178 - 2013-04-08 19:35:43 UTC
Novacrow wrote:
SkyMeetFire wrote:

I like the Apoc change, other than I'm a tad worried about its cap now. Hopefully you'll look into a slight reduction in laser cap use, a buff to the Controlled Bursts Skill, and/or perhaps a slightly larger buff to recharge on the Apoc. The overall reduction is laser cap use will also help the Baddon, which also struggles with its cap massively.

The Baddon change is a little disappointing, but I understand completely its necessity within the current meta. In application, I don't think it will be as drastic as people make it out to be.


An easy way to address the cap issues in one change is to just change the cap use of large energy turrets.


I agree that is easy, but I also believe CCP has stated they don't really want lasers viable on other ships. If that's still the case, then they'll have to do more than one change. Obviously, I'd love a cap use reduction on large lasers Twisted
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#179 - 2013-04-08 19:38:18 UTC
I'd still say the capacitors for both the laser ships is on the weak side. Cap is a real problem for the abbaddon and I expect the Apoc to suffer as badly.

The neut bonus to the Geddon is too much. This is an ewar bonus which is way too powerful for a non-faction battleship which should be packing a bit more dps not being able to cripple anything and everything that floats within neut range (all those changes you've made to BC, cruisers, destroyers and frigs will be pointless with these on the field). Utter madness if you follow this through.
Callduron
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#180 - 2013-04-08 19:40:16 UTC
Loving the changes. Amarr BS were so samey before, 3 big bananas all with 5% laser damage + 1.

Now we can sit like bricks in our Abaddons or race around murdering things while whining to the guardians for cap in a genuine attack Apoc or just warp in on top of them with our Blastergeddons, turning all their hardeners off while we melt their faces.

Thanks CCP Rise!

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