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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

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Author
Pelea Ming
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#181 - 2013-04-08 19:40:42 UTC
SkyMeetFire wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
SkyMeetFire wrote:
I like the new Geddon; its exactly what I was hoping for except I sorta hoped for a 15% per level range rather than only 10%. I don't really agree that it is encroaching on the Bhaalgorn - The Bhaal still is the most powerful neuter in the game with 12.25 effective neuts (7 * 1.75). The Geddon just gives us another option, and gives the Amarr line some ability to dictate range in the BS level (because it sure as hell couldn't do it with speed before). Add into it that we now get a fully capable drone boat as well, and finally the Amarr BS line catches up with the other races in versatility.

I like the Apoc change, other than I'm a tad worried about its cap now. Hopefully you'll look into a slight reduction in laser cap use, a buff to the Controlled Bursts Skill, and/or perhaps a slightly larger buff to recharge on the Apoc. The overall reduction is laser cap use will also help the Baddon, which also struggles with its cap massively.

The Baddon change is a little disappointing, but I understand completely its necessity within the current meta. In application, I don't think it will be as drastic as people make it out to be.

You also missed that they are slightly nerfing the cap recharge time on the Apoc, making it REALLY hurt cap wise.


I think you misread it Pelea. From the op:

Quote:
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 6700(-800) / 1002s(-152s) / 6.69 (+.19)


They are BUFFing the recharge rate, not nerfing it. I question if it is enough, however, without any reduction to laser cap usage.

Thank you for point that out, your right, I did misread it, and after having seen my mistake, I have to comment that 1/5th of a second better cap recharge is, quite literally, laughable. Even after you apply the appropriate skills, this does not equal out to enough of a difference to be noticeable compared to the loss of the cap drain boost the hull currently has.
Novacrow
Moosearmy
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#182 - 2013-04-08 19:42:33 UTC
Nikuno wrote:
I'd still say the capacitors for both the laser ships is on the weak side. Cap is a real problem for the abbaddon and I expect the Apoc to suffer as badly.

The neut bonus to the Geddon is too much. This is an ewar bonus which is way too powerful for a non-faction battleship which should be packing a bit more dps not being able to cripple anything and everything that floats within neut range (all those changes you've made to BC, cruisers, destroyers and frigs will be pointless with these on the field). Utter madness if you follow this through.


Why not an ewar bship? The caldari have one, and they are the paradigm of shield tankers. Amarr are the paradigm of armor tankers. It makes sense...
5mok1ng gun
Moon Of The Pheonix
#183 - 2013-04-08 19:44:37 UTC
Athena Maldoran wrote:
What are you doing to the armageddon? LOL



I don't think they know tbh.

Its almost like they are plucking bonuses out of a hat and saying " that fits because its pirate counterpart has a similar bonus " Just like they are atacking the Abaddon " it tanks to well take 1% per lever away and that will fix it " instead of just reducing the armor HP.

Its like someone else stated in the thread 4% per level is not a real bonus. ( 5%, 7.5%, 10% and so on are real bonuses ).
Pelea Ming
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#184 - 2013-04-08 19:48:59 UTC
Novacrow wrote:
Nikuno wrote:
I'd still say the capacitors for both the laser ships is on the weak side. Cap is a real problem for the abbaddon and I expect the Apoc to suffer as badly.

The neut bonus to the Geddon is too much. This is an ewar bonus which is way too powerful for a non-faction battleship which should be packing a bit more dps not being able to cripple anything and everything that floats within neut range (all those changes you've made to BC, cruisers, destroyers and frigs will be pointless with these on the field). Utter madness if you follow this through.


Why not an ewar bship? The caldari have one, and they are the paradigm of shield tankers. Amarr are the paradigm of armor tankers. It makes sense...

I both agree and disagree. Not to having an ewar BS of the Amarr line, but that giving one bonuses to both cap drain and TD on a T1 hull. We don't do this historically, we save that for T2 hulls. Here's hoping that they do give us a T2 version that both nuets and TDs :)
Mole Guy
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#185 - 2013-04-08 19:49:35 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
OMG why the Armageddon its losing 2 slots!? the idea is sound and ******* nice, like a sort of cheap bhaalgorn but 2 ******* slots!? it needs that low slot.

if you take 2 slots from it, you wont have enough low slots for the drone modules and tank, since the medium slots will be dedicated to capacitor warfare, it could be an AWESOME pvp ship, but it needs that low slot.




it gains alot of armor in the process. check the stats. plus, when using nos, you wont need any cap boosters, u can go rep, burner and all sorts of fun things and just nos the rats or yer enemy. use the cap to power things.. =)
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#186 - 2013-04-08 19:52:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Quote:
I'm not the one going around arguing my points over everyone elses points of view because I don't agree I put across my point and i'm happy to leave it at that saves shitting up the thread with crap that you are spouting.

How about you leave the thread alone for a bit and let others post what they want to without your bull.

Just pointing out the facts my friend.

You are the one attempting to take this to a more personal (and condescending) level... which doesn't seem to be working out for you very well.

As for voicing my opinion "over everyone elses point of view" I think if you look closely you will see the geddon changes in particular are overwhelmingly popular.

I understand where you are coming from, my first BS was a gank Armageddon. I waited quite a while for it to come out, and it was a magnificent brawler... but it was overshadowed by the Abaddon when it finally came out. That glaring hole in the ongoing theme of Amarr neut/nos and Khanid inspired missile use (and to a degree drone use) in the BS line still remained.

I could have lived with either the Abaddon or the Apoc filling this role instead, but I can see the rational behind this choice.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Alice Katsuko
Perkone
Caldari State
#187 - 2013-04-08 19:54:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Alice Katsuko
The buffs to the Armageddon may be too good, as they effectively make the Dominix obsolete even in its role as a specialized drone boat. The Armageddon will have more high slots for weapons, bonuses to neuts for utility, more low slots for tank and damage, and overall will just be superior to the Dominix in all applications aside from pure PvE or as a cheap Slowcat.
Novacrow
Moosearmy
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#188 - 2013-04-08 19:55:55 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
Novacrow wrote:
Nikuno wrote:
I'd still say the capacitors for both the laser ships is on the weak side. Cap is a real problem for the abbaddon and I expect the Apoc to suffer as badly.

The neut bonus to the Geddon is too much. This is an ewar bonus which is way too powerful for a non-faction battleship which should be packing a bit more dps not being able to cripple anything and everything that floats within neut range (all those changes you've made to BC, cruisers, destroyers and frigs will be pointless with these on the field). Utter madness if you follow this through.


Why not an ewar bship? The caldari have one, and they are the paradigm of shield tankers. Amarr are the paradigm of armor tankers. It makes sense...

I both agree and disagree. Not to having an ewar BS of the Amarr line, but that giving one bonuses to both cap drain and TD on a T1 hull. We don't do this historically, we save that for T2 hulls. Here's hoping that they do give us a T2 version that both nuets and TDs :)


What? Nothing in the proposed changes said anything about a TD bonus.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#189 - 2013-04-08 19:56:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
5mok1ng gun wrote:
Athena Maldoran wrote:
What are you doing to the armageddon? LOL



I don't think they know tbh.

Its almost like they are plucking bonuses out of a hat and saying " that fits because its pirate counterpart has a similar bonus " Just like they are atacking the Abaddon " it tanks to well take 1% per lever away and that will fix it " instead of just reducing the armor HP.

Its like someone else stated in the thread 4% per level is not a real bonus. ( 5%, 7.5%, 10% and so on are real bonuses ).

Resist bonuses are inherently better than active tanking bonuses, especially when heavy logistics use enters the equation. This is obviously just one more step in bringing a bit more balance between the two.

At one point in time a 7.5% "wasn't a real bonus" either, until CCP introduced it to bring more granularity to the bonus system.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#190 - 2013-04-08 19:59:24 UTC
On a slightly related note, I find it curious how you made the Dragoon the prototype for future Amarr ship lines.
You do realize that the Dragoon is by far the least popular destroyer?

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.

Pelea Ming
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#191 - 2013-04-08 20:02:13 UTC
Alice Katsuko wrote:
The buffs to the Armageddon may be too good, as they effectively make the Dominix obsolete even in its role as a specialized drone boat. The Armageddon will have more high slots for weapons, bonuses to neuts for utility, more low slots for tank and damage, and overall will just be superior to the Dominix in all applications aside from pure PvE or as a cheap Slowcat.

Thank you, I've been waiting for someone to provide some logic for or against the resist nerf that was worth taking into consideration, and this does it.

Basically, as much as CCP is a fan of blop fleets, the resistance bonus really won't make a difference either way... if it gets primaried, it will die.

As for small fleet warfare, however, this proves the point that perhaps CCP should rethink their view that it's too OP at 5%. Perhaps, CCP Rise, you could provide us with some evidence to back this view up, so we can take that into consideration?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#192 - 2013-04-08 20:02:25 UTC
Zimmy Zeta wrote:
On a slightly related note, I find it curious how you made the Dragoon the prototype for future Amarr ship lines.
You do realize that the Dragoon is by far the least popular destroyer?

Good point, but I think the fragility of Destroyers enters into that equation. Neuts (and drones also) take a while to be effective, and destroyers need to depend on quick damage application or kite at considerable range... otherwise they don't live long enough to be truly effective.

The Bhaal is very popular because it has the endurance to make the most of it's bonuses.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Pelea Ming
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#193 - 2013-04-08 20:03:25 UTC
Novacrow wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Novacrow wrote:
Nikuno wrote:
I'd still say the capacitors for both the laser ships is on the weak side. Cap is a real problem for the abbaddon and I expect the Apoc to suffer as badly.

The neut bonus to the Geddon is too much. This is an ewar bonus which is way too powerful for a non-faction battleship which should be packing a bit more dps not being able to cripple anything and everything that floats within neut range (all those changes you've made to BC, cruisers, destroyers and frigs will be pointless with these on the field). Utter madness if you follow this through.


Why not an ewar bship? The caldari have one, and they are the paradigm of shield tankers. Amarr are the paradigm of armor tankers. It makes sense...

I both agree and disagree. Not to having an ewar BS of the Amarr line, but that giving one bonuses to both cap drain and TD on a T1 hull. We don't do this historically, we save that for T2 hulls. Here's hoping that they do give us a T2 version that both nuets and TDs :)


What? Nothing in the proposed changes said anything about a TD bonus.

Correct, this was in response to someone proposing that they be added to the ship.
Pelea Ming
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#194 - 2013-04-08 20:04:56 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Zimmy Zeta wrote:
On a slightly related note, I find it curious how you made the Dragoon the prototype for future Amarr ship lines.
You do realize that the Dragoon is by far the least popular destroyer?

Good point, but I think the fragility of Destroyers enters into that equation. Neuts (and drones also) take a while to be effective, and destroyers need to depend on quick damage application or kite at considerable range... otherwise they don't live long enough to be truly effective.

The Bhaal is very popular because it has the endurance to make the most of it's bonuses.

Very good point, and exactly why only a few Dessies see heavy use over the majority of them.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#195 - 2013-04-08 20:05:10 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
Alice Katsuko wrote:
The buffs to the Armageddon may be too good, as they effectively make the Dominix obsolete even in its role as a specialized drone boat. The Armageddon will have more high slots for weapons, bonuses to neuts for utility, more low slots for tank and damage, and overall will just be superior to the Dominix in all applications aside from pure PvE or as a cheap Slowcat.

Thank you, I've been waiting for someone to provide some logic for or against the resist nerf that was worth taking into consideration, and this does it.

Basically, as much as CCP is a fan of blop fleets, the resistance bonus really won't make a difference either way... if it gets primaried, it will die.

As for small fleet warfare, however, this proves the point that perhaps CCP should rethink their view that it's too OP at 5%. Perhaps, CCP Rise, you could provide us with some evidence to back this view up, so we can take that into consideration?

While the 1% reduction in resist bonus is one more small step towards making active tanking more competitive, I don't think they are ever going to achieve a happy place with this until they allow active tanking bonuses to apply (at least partially) to remote reps as well.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Pelea Ming
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#196 - 2013-04-08 20:11:43 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Alice Katsuko wrote:
The buffs to the Armageddon may be too good, as they effectively make the Dominix obsolete even in its role as a specialized drone boat. The Armageddon will have more high slots for weapons, bonuses to neuts for utility, more low slots for tank and damage, and overall will just be superior to the Dominix in all applications aside from pure PvE or as a cheap Slowcat.

Thank you, I've been waiting for someone to provide some logic for or against the resist nerf that was worth taking into consideration, and this does it.

Basically, as much as CCP is a fan of blop fleets, the resistance bonus really won't make a difference either way... if it gets primaried, it will die.

As for small fleet warfare, however, this proves the point that perhaps CCP should rethink their view that it's too OP at 5%. Perhaps, CCP Rise, you could provide us with some evidence to back this view up, so we can take that into consideration?

While the 1% reduction in resist bonus is one more small step towards making active tanking more competitive, I don't think they are ever going to achieve a happy place with this until they allow active tanking bonuses to apply (at least partially) to remote reps as well.

Or they could just go and make both local and remote armor reps apply at the beginning of the cycle like they do for shield. That would save them all sorts of heart ache about balancing them alone.
Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#197 - 2013-04-08 20:16:02 UTC
If the changes to geddon carries over to the faction version... RIP the only proper Amarr PVE Battleship.

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave

Throktar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#198 - 2013-04-08 20:17:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Throktar
Abaddon : I can live with the changes. I would still prefer an over all HP buff to all BS hulls, but that is another issue.

Apocalypse : I really do like the changes as far as the hull bonuses. I am concerned about the reduced HP, but with the speed and agility buff I guess it can even out. My huge issue lies with the fitting requirements. It really needs more PG and CPU...a lot more PG.

Now on to the big one...Ugh

Armageddon : Why oh why did you give it neut bonuses. I understand if you want to give Amarr pilots the option of flying a non capacitor dependent drone boat, but why the terrible second hull bonus? We have the curse and Bal, and you can always just shove the hull full of neuts anyway.

I think you need to remove that bonus completely and remove all the turret slots. Turn the Geddon into a missile/done hull. Give it a bonus to Cruise and Torp damage or some other missile buff. It can still have its utility slots for neuting if you want.

CCP could use this hull for role playing and story building. "The Empress has decreed that from this day forth a new bond of strength and friendship between the Amarr and the Caldari has been formed. The glorious and God blessed form of the Armageddon will now use missiles to bring forth its retribution. We can use these holy weapons to project great damage at any range, and choose the type of destructive power to reign upon the enemies of our great nations. By purchasing these weapons we will help to rebuild the economy of our great ally in these troubled times and ensure peace amongst the stars once more. God Bless the Amarr and God Bless the Caldari!"
Pelea Ming
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#199 - 2013-04-08 20:18:38 UTC
Sarah Schneider wrote:
If the changes to geddon carries over to the faction version... RIP the only proper Amarr PVE Battleship.

Your kidding me, right? If you know what your doing, the 'Baddon makes a great PVE ship. Even if your low skilled, use some LP to get some cap implants.
Pelea Ming
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#200 - 2013-04-08 20:22:01 UTC
Throktar wrote:
Armageddon : Why oh why did you give it nuet bonuses. I understand if you want to give Amarr pilots the option of flying a non capacitor dependent drone boat, but why the terrible second hull bonus?

I think you need to remove that bonus completely and remove all the turret slots. Turn the Geddon into a missile/done hull. Give it a bonus to Cruise and Torp damage or some other missile buff. It can still have its utility slots for neuting if you want.

CCP could use this hull for role playing and story building. "The Empress has decreed that from this day forth a new bond of strength and friendship between the Amarr and the Caldari has been formed. The glorious and God blessed form of the Armageddon will now use missiles to bring forth its retribution. We can use these holy weapons to project great damage at any range, and choose the type of destructive power to reign upon the enemies of our great nations. By purchasing these weapons we will help to rebuild the economy of our great ally in these troubled times and ensure peace amongst the stars once more. God Bless the Amarr and God Bless the Caldari!"

Ignoring your lack of insight into the new ways this hull can be used (that bonus for instance isn't just to nuets, but to nos as well, so if your looking at using it for pve, it can now much more easily dual rep), your story idea is screwy when it's much simpler to call it a Khanid innovation (as all current Amarr missile boats are Khanid).