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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

First post First post First post
Author
LT Alter
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#241 - 2013-04-08 21:56:22 UTC
Arline Kley wrote:
Another "Lets gimp the Amarr even further and call it Improvements" thread.

Seriously CCP Rise, what are you honestly thinking of when it comes to these changes? This is quite possibly only the second time of my playing EVE (just over 7 years) that I've actually been physically angry at the amount of missing of the point that you have done (the point being your desk, and your missing it being beyond the periphery of the Milky Way).

Let me start with the quite frankly insane ship first: The "I'm an Armageddon! No wait, I'm a Mini-Bhaal! No wait, I'm a FUPORS*" *ask me in game what this means


Starting off:

The Armageddon is designed to sail deep into the enemy lines and pummel the sweet bejebus out of anything that exists in EVE with its lasers bringing death and destruction to the enemy. The Drone bay is there for a supporting role, not as the main armament - the Gallente are the race you go for to insult everyone's son and mother with drone hordes. I accept that this is somewhat confusing but I'll let it pass. A launcher mainstay is more in keeping with the Khanid Kingdom, and when I last looked the ship wasn't painted in the colours of the Kingdom.

Removal of the Laser Cap bonus is a massive kick in the teeth - Amarrian ships already suffer from some of the worst capacitor ratings in the game, and have the worst drain: No other race can cap themselves faster than an Amarrian vessel trying to repair, fire its guns and maintain a decent speed. The cap bonus to laser's gave us a decent chance at staying in the fight long enough to actually kill the enemy before our capacitor was fully gone; without it, our capacitors are effectively HALVED in value.

I will not deny that the Amarr are one of the slowest races to alter their ships designs, but practically cloning a PIRATE vessel's designs and then fobbing it off as their own is downright insulting to the lore of the game. Think about it, why would the Amarrian Empire want to be associated with poisonous Blood Raider technology/ideals? And then sticking said technology on to their most common battleships is again, insulting.

Having the Armageddon regarded as a Combat battleship is also wrong - It is in every way an ATTACK battleship. Its stats should reflect that:


Amarr Battleship Skill Bonuses:
10% bonus to Large Energy Turret capacitor use
5% Large Energy Turret rate of fire per level.
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 4M(+1), 7L(-1); 7 turrets
Fittings: 16500 PWG, 550 CPU(+65)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 5800(+331) / 7500(+859) / 6500(+389)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6200(+887.5) / 1087s / 5.7
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 105 / .13(+.002) / 105200000 / 18.96s (+.29)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 125
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km / 110 / 7
Sensor strength: 21 Radar Sensor Strength (+4)
Signature radius: 450 (+80)

The Amarr Empire realised that after constant observation of the Armageddon Class battleships, a few revisions were required to bring it up to code with the newer elements brought from the other empires. They did not change much, but what changes they made have created a more credible ship of the line, albeit at the cost of a larger hull and weaker locking range

In that, all I've changed is - it has gained a little bit of a tank (not massively so, but enough to make a bit of difference), it can keep the energy/rof bonus, gains a little bit in CPU, looses the utility slot and keeps the large enough drone bay. It keeps its current role, fits in the with the ideals of the background of EVE, and most importantly - Doesn't demolish another ship to get sorted.

The Apocalypse is the other ship that has been hit FAR, FAR too heavily with these proposed changes. I admit that it's navy version is currently one of the most powerful ships in the game which I hope it stays as, but its junior version is somewhat out of sorts. The proposed changes will further lessen the usage of that ship, to probably much wonderment by the Design Team. This ship is screaming Combat Battleship; designed as it was to pummel the enemy from long range and within a specialised team with Armageddon's/battle-cruisers/cruisers as Close Support ships and vaporise the larger ships before pulling back or being overwhelmed.

The additional 7.5% bonus to tracking is frankly pointless. Yes, I know it means I can shoot the wings off a Probe at 15km's away, but if they are that close, then its game over anyway - No amount of help will save you.

And didn't you mention that in a Devblog (http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/back-to-the-balancing-future/) that the Apocalypse was perfectly fine anyway, and labelled as a Combat Battleship? The same was said about the Armageddon as well. Clearly that this was forgotten over the months.

I would start pointing out the rest of the flaws of the Apocalypse, but everything is pretty much turning into a red mist and I feel I could descend further into apoplectic rage. I will continue this tomorrow, and point out what can be done properly.

Point out my flaws by all means. Just make sure they are constructive.


Thank you, for posting something that well defines exactly what should be done. I would normally look for every wrong I could find in some offered change like this, but no matter what small details you missed that I could find would not come close to how badly CCP have messed this one up. You haven't lost site of what the game meta needs, CCP has. Thanks for taking the time to post such a long and very constructive post.
Pelea Ming
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#242 - 2013-04-08 21:57:01 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
The Amarr 'drone boat' brain bug needs to be killed with fire, period.

They are not the drone race, the Arbitrator (the first drone boat) was a 'quirk', nothing more, but recent CCP devs (i.e. the last couple years) seem to have allowed this brain bug to grow and grow... Straight

Quote:
The Arbitrator is unusual for Amarr ships in that it's primarily a drone carrier. While it is not the best carrier around, it has superior armor that gives it greater durability than most ships in its class.


Seriously, stop trampling 10 years of back story for quick gains.

Out of date flavor text aside, Amarr have ALWAYS heavily favored drones. Now if you choose to ignore this fact you'd still be left with the point that 2 missile and 2 drone races are a sound concept and emphasizing this is not a bad thing.

Diversity in your BS lines is a GOOD thing. It makes it more difficult to counter effectively.

I wouldn't say heavily favored, as originally, they only had 2 hulls that had bonuses for drones.
Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#243 - 2013-04-08 21:57:21 UTC
I love the new Armageddon. Most of my skillpoints are in energy transfers, battleships and drones, due to flying Archons and Pilgrims all the time. Relevant to my interests and skills.

Probably going to be a bit overpowered though. I can already see several ways I could use this to a great effect against the close-range tech 3 armor fleets that dominate wormhle PvP at the moment.
Arline Kley
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#244 - 2013-04-08 21:57:42 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Also, can we stop with the roleplaying? We are talking game balance here, lore has no place here


Actually, yes it does. Ignoring the rich role-play background that this game has generated over the last 10 years merely to make ships "uniform in design and function" whilst having effectively different skins is NOT the game I want to pay CCP for. I like ships having unique abilities, or at the very most, somewhat similar stats. Classifying ships as either Attack/Combat/3rd option is fine - it gives players a little bit of extra help.

Going by the racial background history will show this.

"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57

Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#245 - 2013-04-08 21:58:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Karade
Ranger 1 wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
The Amarr 'drone boat' brain bug needs to be killed with fire, period.

They are not the drone race, the Arbitrator (the first drone boat) was a 'quirk', nothing more, but recent CCP devs (i.e. the last couple years) seem to have allowed this brain bug to grow and grow... Straight

Quote:
The Arbitrator is unusual for Amarr ships in that it's primarily a drone carrier. While it is not the best carrier around, it has superior armor that gives it greater durability than most ships in its class.


Seriously, stop trampling 10 years of back story for quick gains.

Out of date flavor text aside, Amarr have ALWAYS heavily favored drones. Now if you choose to ignore this fact you'd still be left with the point that 2 missile and 2 drone races are a sound concept and emphasizing this is not a bad thing.

Diversity in your BS lines is a GOOD thing. It makes it more difficult to counter effectively.
Sorry mate but no - they haven't. Short history lesson for you:

The arbitrator was changed to a 'drone boat' in the first pass at cruiser rebalance a good few years ago (this was long after the days when the Thorax was *the* drone cruiser, fielding heavy drones...), but that has never been an Amarr thing until the very recent (in my terms) additions of recons with drones (fine, they are the T2 versions of the arbitrator), drone frigates (Sentinel? that was out of the blue), drone destroyers (ok, where'd that come from?), drone BC (seriously, what?) and now drone BS (no, just no…)

Gallente had the only line of ships that could field 15 (or in the case of the Moros, 35) drones. Perhaps I'm a 'bitter vet' (but I think 9 years of running two accounts entitles me to a pretty strong opinion on the matter...) but I really don't like this homogenising of racial doctrines, as a quick an easy fix to balance (perceived or otherwise) issues.

Amarr are, and have always been about shiny armour ships with lasers. You may think have a 2:2 format is a good idea, I think it’s pretty terrible when there is and always was, scope to keep 4 distinct racial doctrines.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293

LT Alter
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#246 - 2013-04-08 21:59:58 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
cwazy ivan wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
cwazy ivan...you've lost the point. Long range nuets have been in the game for a very, very long time. They've neuted at high efficiency and were mounted on much faster hulls that were able to keep a kiting small gang in range easily.

Small gangs have survived quite nicely.


They haven't been x7 heavy neuts that neut at +40km. one of these things can shut down 7 kiting cruisers, instantly turning off their mwd's and guns in some cases.

Unless they are using named neuts their limit is a hair over 37km, not 40+.
1 large neut isn't going to shut down a properly fitted kiting cruiser.



Yes, it will. Have you ever flown one before? Doesn't sound like it. And any no matter that it's only 37k it's still way to long range for SEVEN....HEAVY....NEUTS...SEVEN....HEAVY...NEUTS... anyway now that I got that out of the way. Yes 1 heavy neut can abolish one cruiser's cap practically instantly, most definitely if he has an mwd fit and he is running it.
Lillith Sakata
All Consuming Darkness
From the Void
#247 - 2013-04-08 22:02:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Lillith Sakata
Arline Kley wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Also, can we stop with the roleplaying? We are talking game balance here, lore has no place here


Actually, yes it does. Ignoring the rich role-play background that this game has generated over the last 10 years merely to make ships "uniform in design and function" whilst having effectively different skins is NOT the game I want to pay CCP for. I like ships having unique abilities, or at the very most, somewhat similar stats. Classifying ships as either Attack/Combat/3rd option is fine - it gives players a little bit of extra help.

Going by the racial background history will show this.


EXACTLY!!
The game balance should also consider the story. Otherwise, why even HAVE DIFFERENT RACES?! Come on, CCP, get your heads out of your collective a... yeah.

Please, balance is balance, agree that it is needed, but making every race basically the same, while at the same time insulting those of us that believe in the roleplay value of the game (and basically insult the many people who have built on the backstory + book sales which I'm sure you get a cut of).

I'd quote my old BIO that was about shields/armor/hull and how I felt the Amarrians felt about it, but I found it to be possibly inappropriate. Edited however:

Shields are for wussies, we just put em on there to keep the debris out of our engines. They're meant to come off.
Armor is our bread and butter. Better when hardened ;)
Hull... well, basically its like this: when they're into that, you're boned.
Alice Katsuko
Perkone
Caldari State
#248 - 2013-04-08 22:03:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Alice Katsuko
I don't understand all the rage about the Apocalypse, which is receiving a net buff, except for pilots with atrociously terrible capacitor skills, who have no business flying Amarr anyway. The Apocalypse isn't used as a sniper; the Oracle is a superior laser sniper platform. Its principal role instead is damage projection using Scorch; an Apocalypse can hit to 70km using Scorch, giving it perhaps the best damage projection capabilities of any T1 battleship in the game.

The new tracking bonus will further improve its damage projection by allowing it to hit close-in targets, thereby increasing its operating range, albeit in a different direction. It is the equivalent of adding a free scripted tracking computer to every Apocalypse.

I've never been a big fan of the laser capacitor use bonus, which is unique to Amarr boats, and which replaces the usual second hull bonus found on other factions' ships.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#249 - 2013-04-08 22:03:42 UTC
Askulf Joringer wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
cwazy ivan...you've lost the point. Long range nuets have been in the game for a very, very long time. They've neuted at high efficiency and were mounted on much faster hulls that were able to keep a kiting small gang in range easily.

Small gangs have survived quite nicely.


Stop posting please as it's apparent that you have no understanding of how the geddon is going to become op.

The faster ships you're talking about are the curse which have FAR LESS nueting power and FAR FAR FAR less EHP, combined with FAR less independent cap stability. Oh yeah, the Geddon will also be much cheaper...

******* christ, some people are going full ******.

What is apparent is that you've never flown a Curse.

If a pilot goes for a full rack of neuts on the geddon, yes, he will be very dangerous within 37km as far as his neuting power is concerned. That will leave him with his drones for damage only, which are destructible. A geddon with have longer neut range than a Bhaal, but far less neuting capability.

Small gangs have been dealing with Bhaals and Curses for a long time. The stupid ones die, the smart ones get some very nice kill mails. Point being, neither one has killed off small gangs.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Zircon Dasher
#250 - 2013-04-08 22:03:46 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

Ah well, I'm sure you've got more of a vision and plan than I do. :(


Hopefully this.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.

X415
Doomheim
#251 - 2013-04-08 22:04:02 UTC
Goodbye Dominix, hello Armageddon.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#252 - 2013-04-08 22:04:33 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
The Amarr 'drone boat' brain bug needs to be killed with fire, period.

They are not the drone race, the Arbitrator (the first drone boat) was a 'quirk', nothing more, but recent CCP devs (i.e. the last couple years) seem to have allowed this brain bug to grow and grow... Straight

Quote:
The Arbitrator is unusual for Amarr ships in that it's primarily a drone carrier. While it is not the best carrier around, it has superior armor that gives it greater durability than most ships in its class.


Seriously, stop trampling 10 years of back story for quick gains.

Out of date flavor text aside, Amarr have ALWAYS heavily favored drones. Now if you choose to ignore this fact you'd still be left with the point that 2 missile and 2 drone races are a sound concept and emphasizing this is not a bad thing.

Diversity in your BS lines is a GOOD thing. It makes it more difficult to counter effectively.

I wouldn't say heavily favored, as originally, they only had 2 hulls that had bonuses for drones.

But most had significantly large drone bays compared to their counterparts.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#253 - 2013-04-08 22:08:30 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
The Amarr 'drone boat' brain bug needs to be killed with fire, period.

They are not the drone race, the Arbitrator (the first drone boat) was a 'quirk', nothing more, but recent CCP devs (i.e. the last couple years) seem to have allowed this brain bug to grow and grow... Straight

Quote:
The Arbitrator is unusual for Amarr ships in that it's primarily a drone carrier. While it is not the best carrier around, it has superior armor that gives it greater durability than most ships in its class.


Seriously, stop trampling 10 years of back story for quick gains.

Out of date flavor text aside, Amarr have ALWAYS heavily favored drones. Now if you choose to ignore this fact you'd still be left with the point that 2 missile and 2 drone races are a sound concept and emphasizing this is not a bad thing.

Diversity in your BS lines is a GOOD thing. It makes it more difficult to counter effectively.

I wouldn't say heavily favored, as originally, they only had 2 hulls that had bonuses for drones.
Actually it was originally 0 hulls with bonuses to drones...

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293

XjimbobX
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#254 - 2013-04-08 22:10:04 UTC  |  Edited by: XjimbobX
I could be wrong but I feel they have just made the dominix useless :( I'm not a big PVPer but the geddon just got the bonuses for the setup people have used for years on the dom. O well thus is life fix the **** tell its broke :/
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
#255 - 2013-04-08 22:13:50 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Ranger 1 wrote:

What is apparent is that you've never flown a Curse.

If a pilot goes for a full rack of neuts on the geddon, yes, he will be very dangerous within 37km as far as his neuting power is concerned. That will leave him with his drones for damage only, which are destructible. A geddon with have longer neut range than a Bhaal, but far less neuting capability.

Small gangs have been dealing with Bhaals and Curses for a long time. The stupid ones die, the smart ones get some very nice kill mails. Point being, neither one has killed off small gangs.


Geddon has the PWG to fit a couple neuts and many guns. 5,500 more PWG than a Dominix which was usually limited to four electron blaster cannons and one 1600mm plate (+ fitting mod) if it mounted two heavy neuts. This means the Geddon will be able to run with 2 heavy nuets and five large guns while also having a much better tank.

What is the advantage for the Dominix?
1. An extra midslot.
2. Sniper drone.

For the second time in a month, the engagement envelope of the Gallente drone boat is 95% covered by the Amarr drone boat.
Lillith Sakata
All Consuming Darkness
From the Void
#256 - 2013-04-08 22:14:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Lillith Sakata
Alice Katsuko wrote:
I don't understand all the rage about the Apocalypse, which is receiving a net buff, except for pilots with atrociously terrible capacitor skills, who have no business flying Amarr anyway. The Apocalypse isn't used as a sniper; the Oracle is a superior laser sniper platform. Its principal role instead is damage projection using Scorch; an Apocalypse can hit to 70km using Scorch, giving it perhaps the best damage projection capabilities of any T1 battleship in the game.

The new tracking bonus will further improve its damage projection by allowing it to hit close-in targets, thereby increasing its operating range, albeit in a different direction. It is the equivalent of adding a free scripted tracking computer to every Apocalypse.

I've never been a big fan of the laser capacitor use bonus, which is unique to Amarr boats, and which replaces the usual second hull bonus found on other factions' ships.

The problem is that it loses the cap bonus. I'm not sure if you quite understand how much of an impact that makes. In PvP, maybe not so much (but it is a tremendous impact) -- PvP fights tend to be shorter. It will however completely destroy the ship's viability as a PvE ship (aka moneymaker).
Also, tracking won't help it that much. It *is* meant to be a sniper boat. The only reason it isn't anymore is the huge laser nerf years back. (and the goofy, too damn easy probing change)
Pelea Ming
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#257 - 2013-04-08 22:16:31 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Ok, so other then being a couple of monkeys and flinging **** at each other, none of you are providing facts to back up your arguments, simply spouting off about why your own opinion of it is the right one. Why not shelve it, wait for the changed ships to be put on Sisi, and actually test it out, rather then making assumptions?

Edit: Removed the underscore..... ISD Ezwal
Pelea Ming
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#258 - 2013-04-08 22:19:42 UTC
Lillith Sakata wrote:
Alice Katsuko wrote:
I don't understand all the rage about the Apocalypse, which is receiving a net buff, except for pilots with atrociously terrible capacitor skills, who have no business flying Amarr anyway. The Apocalypse isn't used as a sniper; the Oracle is a superior laser sniper platform. Its principal role instead is damage projection using Scorch; an Apocalypse can hit to 70km using Scorch, giving it perhaps the best damage projection capabilities of any T1 battleship in the game.

The new tracking bonus will further improve its damage projection by allowing it to hit close-in targets, thereby increasing its operating range, albeit in a different direction. It is the equivalent of adding a free scripted tracking computer to every Apocalypse.

I've never been a big fan of the laser capacitor use bonus, which is unique to Amarr boats, and which replaces the usual second hull bonus found on other factions' ships.

The problem is that it loses the cap bonus. I'm not sure if you quite understand how much of an impact that makes. In PvP, maybe not so much (but it is a tremendous impact) -- PvP fights tend to be shorter. It will however completely destroy the ship's viability as a PvE ship (aka moneymaker).
Also, tracking won't help it that much. It *is* meant to be a sniper boat. The only reason it isn't anymore is the huge laser nerf years back. (and the goofy, too damn easy probing change)

Ignoring the slant to the rant by mission runners, the point is that in losing the cap bonus without recieving any boost in cap in general worth actually paying attention to, means that amarr laser boats biggest weakness (that they suck themselves dry without anyone bothering to nuet them too damned quickly to begin with) is just even more apparent and more easy to abuse.
Arline Kley
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#259 - 2013-04-08 22:20:40 UTC
Quote:
Ok, so other then being a couple of monkeys and flinging **** at each other, none of you are providing facts to back up your arguments, simply spouting off about why your own opinion of it is the right one. Why not shelve it, wait for the changed ships to be put on Sisi, and actually test it out, rather then making assumptions?


Because Pelea, without informing CCP of our concerns, what we fear will happen in future expansions, any work that they do after it is placed on SiSi is almost too late.

It needs to be worked on before even setting foot into the SiSi docks, and only once it has been agreed (to a reasonable degree) that the changes being made aren't horribly overpowering, then released to the SiSi server.

I would so much gladly wait a year for this to be sorted out and finished correctly, rather than forced through the servers once again.

"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57

Major Killz
Tr0pa de elite.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#260 - 2013-04-08 22:21:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
X Gallentius wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

What is apparent is that you've never flown a Curse.

If a pilot goes for a full rack of neuts on the geddon, yes, he will be very dangerous within 37km as far as his neuting power is concerned. That will leave him with his drones for damage only, which are destructible. A geddon with have longer neut range than a Bhaal, but far less neuting capability.

Small gangs have been dealing with Bhaals and Curses for a long time. The stupid ones die, the smart ones get some very nice kill mails. Point being, neither one has killed off small gangs.


Geddon has the PWG to fit a couple neuts and many guns. 5,500 more PWG than a Dominix which was usually limited to four electron blaster cannons and one 1600mm plate if it mounted two heavy neuts. This means the Geddon will be able to run with 2 heavy nuets and five large guns while also having a much better tank.

What is the advantage for the Dominix?
1. An extra midslot.
2. Sniper drone.

For the second time in a month, the engagement envelope of the Gallente drone boat is 95% covered by the Amarr drone boat.



I too would be using large turrets first and then fitting neutralizers. There is no comparison between the propose Dominix and Armageddon. The Armageddon will overshadow the Dominix.


- killz

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ![/u]