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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Amarr

First post First post First post
Author
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#221 - 2013-04-08 21:13:44 UTC
Geddon used to be my favorite amarr battleship, changing it to a neut/drone ****-ship is just horrible, i liked the amarr lineup, but now i guess ill just go back to flying Legions, until they get nerfed to pointlessness.
Taawuz
League of Non-Aligned Worlds
#222 - 2013-04-08 21:20:29 UTC
RIP Panic Geddons, good night sweet prince. Sad
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#223 - 2013-04-08 21:21:55 UTC
Zimmy Zeta wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

They don't intend the Apoc to be a brawler, they intend for it to be a kiter/sniper.


You are right here, I guess, but still I don't like the idea of kiting Amarr ships.
Yeah, Slicer...I know.
Maybe it's LOLRP, but Amarrian ships are slow and sturdy and are not supposed to run away in my opinion.
They hold the line as an unmovable force and use superior damage projection to toast all those ships that think they can stay out of range by buzzing around.
If you have watched (or read) Sin City: Marvin vs that cannibal Frodo: that's how a fight Amarr vs. Minmatar is supposed to look.



Smile

By and large you are correct, but the Apoc has always filled this role very effectively.

I'm just going by my experiences on being part of and also on the receiving end of a long range Apoc Pulse laser fleet. Superior damage at superior range, very difficult to deal with if their FC is on their toes with well timed warp outs to keep to tacklers at bay (on the slim chance you can't kill them fast enough).

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#224 - 2013-04-08 21:27:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Karade
The Amarr 'drone boat' brain bug needs to be killed with fire, period.

They are not the drone race, the Arbitrator (the first drone boat) was a 'quirk', nothing more, but recent CCP devs (i.e. the last couple years) seem to have allowed this brain bug to grow and grow... Straight

Quote:
The Arbitrator is unusual for Amarr ships in that it's primarily a drone carrier. While it is not the best carrier around, it has superior armor that gives it greater durability than most ships in its class.


Seriously, stop trampling 10 years of back story for quick gains.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293

Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#225 - 2013-04-08 21:30:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Nariya Kentaya
I just dont understand CCP's NEED to make every race have "something for everyone", Amarr are supposed to eb ALL ABOUT lasers and huge armor tanks, with occasional drones, it makes no sense for one of their main battle hulls at the battleship level to be a droneboat. at the most they could have a battlecruiser for drone support, but thats it, since its a SECONDARY weapon-type. drones are the gallente's thing, i dont see a reason for any other race to have drone BATTLESHIPS.

People should choose which race to fly based on WHAT they want to fly, not just go "herpderp, guess ill train whatever and just pick the ship thats been awkwardly assigned with the role i prefer, even though it has no lore-basis for existing".
Missis AL
Mister Owns This Corp
#226 - 2013-04-08 21:31:11 UTC
"+10% Energy Neutralizer and Energy Vampire range (replaced large energy turret cap use)" - are you kidding?
Alice Saki
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#227 - 2013-04-08 21:37:44 UTC
Curse = 88k Heavy Neut with Recon 5 :)

FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - Currenly rebuilding gaming machine, I will Return.

Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#228 - 2013-04-08 21:37:56 UTC
The Geddon looks simply amazing. That combination will make it a great solo roam boat, especially with a MJD. Overall I think most of these changes make the Amarr Battleships pretty well positioned.

The only thing that I question is the drop to 4%. I think it would have been reasonable to drop that on the shield ships as they benefit from front loaded reps. I think leaving the 5% on armor would have added a nice balance yet still retain a difference between armor and shield.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#229 - 2013-04-08 21:40:36 UTC
Gabriel Karade wrote:
The Amarr 'drone boat' brain bug needs to be killed with fire, period.

They are not the drone race, the Arbitrator (the first drone boat) was a 'quirk', nothing more, but recent CCP devs (i.e. the last couple years) seem to have allowed this brain bug to grow and grow... Straight

Quote:
The Arbitrator is unusual for Amarr ships in that it's primarily a drone carrier. While it is not the best carrier around, it has superior armor that gives it greater durability than most ships in its class.


Seriously, stop trampling 10 years of back story for quick gains.

Out of date flavor text aside, Amarr have ALWAYS heavily favored drones. Now if you choose to ignore this fact you'd still be left with the point that 2 missile and 2 drone races are a sound concept and emphasizing this is not a bad thing.

Diversity in your BS lines is a GOOD thing. It makes it more difficult to counter effectively.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Arline Kley
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#230 - 2013-04-08 21:46:23 UTC
Another "Lets gimp the Amarr even further and call it Improvements" thread.

Seriously CCP Rise, what are you honestly thinking of when it comes to these changes? This is quite possibly only the second time of my playing EVE (just over 7 years) that I've actually been physically angry at the amount of missing of the point that you have done (the point being your desk, and your missing it being beyond the periphery of the Milky Way).

Let me start with the quite frankly insane ship first: The "I'm an Armageddon! No wait, I'm a Mini-Bhaal! No wait, I'm a FUPORS*" *ask me in game what this means


Starting off:

The Armageddon is designed to sail deep into the enemy lines and pummel the sweet bejebus out of anything that exists in EVE with its lasers bringing death and destruction to the enemy. The Drone bay is there for a supporting role, not as the main armament - the Gallente are the race you go for to insult everyone's son and mother with drone hordes. I accept that this is somewhat confusing but I'll let it pass. A launcher mainstay is more in keeping with the Khanid Kingdom, and when I last looked the ship wasn't painted in the colours of the Kingdom.

Removal of the Laser Cap bonus is a massive kick in the teeth - Amarrian ships already suffer from some of the worst capacitor ratings in the game, and have the worst drain: No other race can cap themselves faster than an Amarrian vessel trying to repair, fire its guns and maintain a decent speed. The cap bonus to laser's gave us a decent chance at staying in the fight long enough to actually kill the enemy before our capacitor was fully gone; without it, our capacitors are effectively HALVED in value.

I will not deny that the Amarr are one of the slowest races to alter their ships designs, but practically cloning a PIRATE vessel's designs and then fobbing it off as their own is downright insulting to the lore of the game. Think about it, why would the Amarrian Empire want to be associated with poisonous Blood Raider technology/ideals? And then sticking said technology on to their most common battleships is again, insulting.

Having the Armageddon regarded as a Combat battleship is also wrong - It is in every way an ATTACK battleship. Its stats should reflect that:


Amarr Battleship Skill Bonuses:
10% bonus to Large Energy Turret capacitor use
5% Large Energy Turret rate of fire per level.
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 4M(+1), 7L(-1); 7 turrets
Fittings: 16500 PWG, 550 CPU(+65)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 5800(+331) / 7500(+859) / 6500(+389)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6200(+887.5) / 1087s / 5.7
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 105 / .13(+.002) / 105200000 / 18.96s (+.29)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 125
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km / 110 / 7
Sensor strength: 21 Radar Sensor Strength (+4)
Signature radius: 450 (+80)

The Amarr Empire realised that after constant observation of the Armageddon Class battleships, a few revisions were required to bring it up to code with the newer elements brought from the other empires. They did not change much, but what changes they made have created a more credible ship of the line, albeit at the cost of a larger hull and weaker locking range

In that, all I've changed is - it has gained a little bit of a tank (not massively so, but enough to make a bit of difference), it can keep the energy/rof bonus, gains a little bit in CPU, looses the utility slot and keeps the large enough drone bay. It keeps its current role, fits in the with the ideals of the background of EVE, and most importantly - Doesn't demolish another ship to get sorted.

The Apocalypse is the other ship that has been hit FAR, FAR too heavily with these proposed changes. I admit that it's navy version is currently one of the most powerful ships in the game which I hope it stays as, but its junior version is somewhat out of sorts. The proposed changes will further lessen the usage of that ship, to probably much wonderment by the Design Team. This ship is screaming Combat Battleship; designed as it was to pummel the enemy from long range and within a specialised team with Armageddon's/battle-cruisers/cruisers as Close Support ships and vaporise the larger ships before pulling back or being overwhelmed.

The additional 7.5% bonus to tracking is frankly pointless. Yes, I know it means I can shoot the wings off a Probe at 15km's away, but if they are that close, then its game over anyway - No amount of help will save you.

And didn't you mention that in a Devblog (http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/back-to-the-balancing-future/) that the Apocalypse was perfectly fine anyway, and labelled as a Combat Battleship? The same was said about the Armageddon as well. Clearly that this was forgotten over the months.

I would start pointing out the rest of the flaws of the Apocalypse, but everything is pretty much turning into a red mist and I feel I could descend further into apoplectic rage. I will continue this tomorrow, and point out what can be done properly.

Point out my flaws by all means. Just make sure they are constructive.

"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#231 - 2013-04-08 21:46:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
cwazy ivan...you've lost the point. Long range nuets have been in the game for a very, very long time. They've neuted at high efficiency and were mounted on much faster hulls that were able to keep a kiting small gang in range easily.

Small gangs have survived quite nicely.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

cwazy ivan
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#232 - 2013-04-08 21:47:50 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
The Amarr 'drone boat' brain bug needs to be killed with fire, period.

They are not the drone race, the Arbitrator (the first drone boat) was a 'quirk', nothing more, but recent CCP devs (i.e. the last couple years) seem to have allowed this brain bug to grow and grow... Straight

Quote:
The Arbitrator is unusual for Amarr ships in that it's primarily a drone carrier. While it is not the best carrier around, it has superior armor that gives it greater durability than most ships in its class.


Seriously, stop trampling 10 years of back story for quick gains.

Out of date flavor text aside, Amarr have ALWAYS heavily favored drones. Now if you choose to ignore this fact you'd still be left with the point that 2 missile and 2 drone races are a sound concept and emphasizing this is not a bad thing.

Diversity in your BS lines is a GOOD thing. It makes it more difficult to counter effectively.



a) in eve lore caldari have the second best drones. also in eve lore the other group that has good drones is minmiatar, IN EVE LORE amarr are the shittiest, hardly use drones, society. and eve is a game of counters, it's a good thing to be able to counter effectively SHIPS THAT ARE HARD TO COUNTER ARE BAD. and overpowered. Stuff like battle triangles or in eve it's probably more like a battle do-decagon and that is a good thing. Diversity between races is good, diversity in a race, it really depends, what they are doing here not a good thing.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#233 - 2013-04-08 21:47:51 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
You've lost the point. Long range nuets have been in the game for a very, very long time. They've neuted at high efficiency and were mounted on much faster hulls that were able to keep a kiting small gang in range easily.

Small gangs have survived quite nicely.


There werent on hulls that could fit 7 of them while having 200k ehp.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#234 - 2013-04-08 21:48:40 UTC
Also, can we stop with the roleplaying? We are talking game balance here, lore has no place here
cwazy ivan
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#235 - 2013-04-08 21:49:26 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
cwazy ivan...you've lost the point. Long range nuets have been in the game for a very, very long time. They've neuted at high efficiency and were mounted on much faster hulls that were able to keep a kiting small gang in range easily.

Small gangs have survived quite nicely.


They haven't been x7 heavy neuts that neut at +40km. one of these things can shut down 7 kiting cruisers, instantly turning off their mwd's and guns in some cases.
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#236 - 2013-04-08 21:53:00 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Ranger 1 wrote:
cwazy ivan...you've lost the point. Long range nuets have been in the game for a very, very long time. They've neuted at high efficiency and were mounted on much faster hulls that were able to keep a kiting small gang in range easily.

Small gangs have survived quite nicely.


Stop posting please as it's apparent that you have no understanding of how the geddon is going to become op.

The faster ships you're talking about are the curse which have FAR LESS nueting power and FAR FAR FAR less EHP, combined with FAR less independent cap stability. Oh yeah, the Geddon will also be much cheaper...

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal
Pelea Ming
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#237 - 2013-04-08 21:54:22 UTC
Alice Saki wrote:
Curse = 88k Heavy Neut with Recon 5 :)

You just made me without thinking about it come up with some nasty fleet tactics involving that :P And I'd never given ANY thought to Curses in fleets before :P
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#238 - 2013-04-08 21:54:36 UTC
cwazy ivan wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
cwazy ivan...you've lost the point. Long range nuets have been in the game for a very, very long time. They've neuted at high efficiency and were mounted on much faster hulls that were able to keep a kiting small gang in range easily.

Small gangs have survived quite nicely.


They haven't been x7 heavy neuts that neut at +40km. one of these things can shut down 7 kiting cruisers, instantly turning off their mwd's and guns in some cases.

Unless they are using named neuts their limit is a hair over 37km, not 40+.
1 large neut isn't going to shut down a properly fitted kiting cruiser.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Lillith Sakata
All Consuming Darkness
From the Void
#239 - 2013-04-08 21:54:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Lillith Sakata
Arline Kley wrote:
Another "Lets gimp the Amarr even further and call it Improvements" thread.

Seriously CCP Rise, what are you honestly thinking of when it comes to these changes? This is quite possibly only the second time of my playing EVE (just over 7 years) that I've actually been physically angry at the amount of missing of the point that you have done (the point being your desk, and your missing it being beyond the periphery of the Milky Way).

Let me start with the quite frankly insane ship first: The "I'm an Armageddon! No wait, I'm a Mini-Bhaal! No wait, I'm a FUPORS*" *ask me in game what this means


Starting off:

The Armageddon is designed to sail deep into the enemy lines and pummel the sweet bejebus out of anything that exists in EVE with its lasers bringing death and destruction to the enemy. The Drone bay is there for a supporting role, not as the main armament - the Gallente are the race you go for to insult everyone's son and mother with drone hordes. I accept that this is somewhat confusing but I'll let it pass. A launcher mainstay is more in keeping with the Khanid Kingdom, and when I last looked the ship wasn't painted in the colours of the Kingdom.

Removal of the Laser Cap bonus is a massive kick in the teeth - Amarrian ships already suffer from some of the worst capacitor ratings in the game, and have the worst drain: No other race can cap themselves faster than an Amarrian vessel trying to repair, fire its guns and maintain a decent speed. The cap bonus to laser's gave us a decent chance at staying in the fight long enough to actually kill the enemy before our capacitor was fully gone; without it, our capacitors are effectively HALVED in value.

I will not deny that the Amarr are one of the slowest races to alter their ships designs, but practically cloning a PIRATE vessel's designs and then fobbing it off as their own is downright insulting to the lore of the game. Think about it, why would the Amarrian Empire want to be associated with poisonous Blood Raider technology/ideals? And then sticking said technology on to their most common battleships is again, insulting.

Having the Armageddon regarded as a Combat battleship is also wrong - It is in every way an ATTACK battleship. Its stats should reflect that:


Amarr Battleship Skill Bonuses:
10% bonus to Large Energy Turret capacitor use
5% Large Energy Turret rate of fire per level.
Slot layout: 7H(-1), 4M(+1), 7L(-1); 7 turrets
Fittings: 16500 PWG, 550 CPU(+65)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 5800(+331) / 7500(+859) / 6500(+389)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6200(+887.5) / 1087s / 5.7
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 105 / .13(+.002) / 105200000 / 18.96s (+.29)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 125
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km / 110 / 7
Sensor strength: 21 Radar Sensor Strength (+4)
Signature radius: 450 (+80)

The Amarr Empire realised that after constant observation of the Armageddon Class battleships, a few revisions were required to bring it up to code with the newer elements brought from the other empires. They did not change much, but what changes they made have created a more credible ship of the line, albeit at the cost of a larger hull and weaker locking range

In that, all I've changed is - it has gained a little bit of a tank (not massively so, but enough to make a bit of difference), it can keep the energy/rof bonus, gains a little bit in CPU, looses the utility slot and keeps the large enough drone bay. It keeps its current role, fits in the with the ideals of the background of EVE, and most importantly - Doesn't demolish another ship to get sorted.

The Apocalypse is the other ship that has been hit FAR, FAR too heavily with these proposed changes. I admit that it's navy version is currently one of the most powerful ships in the game which I hope it stays as, but its junior version is somewhat out of sorts. The proposed changes will further lessen the usage of that ship, to probably much wonderment by the Design Team. This ship is screaming Combat Battleship; designed as it was to pummel the enemy from long range and within a specialised team with Armageddon's/battle-cruisers/cruisers as Close Support ships and vaporise the larger ships before pulling back or being overwhelmed.

The additional 7.5% bonus to tracking is frankly pointless. Yes, I know it means I can shoot the wings off a Probe at 15km's away, but if they are that close, then its game over anyway - No amount of help will save you.

And didn't you mention that in a Devblog (http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/back-to-the-balancing-future/) that the Apocalypse was perfectly fine anyway, and labelled as a Combat Battleship? The same was said about the Armageddon as well. Clearly that this was forgotten over the months.

I would start pointing out the rest of the flaws of the Apocalypse, but everything is pretty much turning into a red mist and I feel I could descend further into apoplectic rage. I will continue this tomorrow, and point out what can be done properly.


"Removal of the Laser Cap bonus is a massive kick in the teeth - Amarrian ships already suffer from some of the worst capacitor ratings in the game, and have the worst drain: No other race can cap themselves faster than an Amarrian vessel trying to repair, fire its guns and maintain a decent speed. The cap bonus to laser's gave us a decent chance at staying in the fight long enough to actually kill the enemy before our capacitor was fully gone; without it, our capacitors are effectively HALVED in value."
"The additional 7.5% bonus to tracking is frankly pointless. Yes, I know it means I can shoot the wings off a Probe at 15km's away, but if they are that close, then its game over anyway - No amount of help will save you."

I love you.

Thank you!
Pelea Ming
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#240 - 2013-04-08 21:55:43 UTC
Mariner6 wrote:
The Geddon looks simply amazing. That combination will make it a great solo roam boat, especially with a MJD. Overall I think most of these changes make the Amarr Battleships pretty well positioned.

The only thing that I question is the drop to 4%. I think it would have been reasonable to drop that on the shield ships as they benefit from front loaded reps. I think leaving the 5% on armor would have added a nice balance yet still retain a difference between armor and shield.

They also benefit from passive regen.