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[Odyssey] T1 Frigate Polish Pass and Naglfar fix

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Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#361 - 2013-04-09 15:21:21 UTC
Aprudena Gist wrote:
Black Garius wrote:
Azrael Dinn wrote:
I don't see why the nag split weapon system was anoying. Sure it takes longer to train but it's also something that make the ship unique. Now it's going to be another ships in the blob.

Not supporting this. This game needs it's ocacional odd balls. If everything is the same with just different skins... well it gets realy booring realy fast.




EXACTLY. The Naglfar has a unique selling point with the dual weapons and any changes to it will DESTROY that uniqueness and with it destroys a LARGE portion of EvE as well. I like the way it is now that is why I trained for it and not the other Dreads wich I'll considered main stream in other words BORING AS HELL. Just for example for the dual weapons the Cyclone still have it and that not bothers anyone why this one get scrutinized?

NAGLFAR is a sophisticated ship as EvE itself LETS KEEP IT THAT WAY.

No the Nagalfar has a unique broken point. Split weapons systems on any ship is stupid and be thrown away on all ships immediately.


Why not simply alter them so that they are no longer broken? Split weapon systems will still exist on many sub capital ships, so do you also propose removing all of them?

I fear Eve will turn into a bland homogonized mass if we continue down this line of thinking.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#362 - 2013-04-09 15:23:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
http://i.imgur.com/xNzo2Qs.jpg

this looks "interesting"

bad EFT data build, oops!

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#363 - 2013-04-09 15:26:41 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Why not simply alter them so that they are no longer broken? Split weapon systems will still exist on many sub capital ships, so do you also propose removing all of them?...

Only the revised Scythe will be sport a split weapon system as far as I am aware (Phoon is remade into an Armour Raven), provided that 'split weapons' still mean bonuses to two separate and mutually exclusive weapon types. Have seen some odd definitions of it over the years, so just wanted to carve it into the proverbial stone.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#364 - 2013-04-09 16:34:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Why not simply alter them so that they are no longer broken? Split weapon systems will still exist on many sub capital ships, so do you also propose removing all of them?...

Only the revised Scythe will be sport a split weapon system as far as I am aware (Phoon is remade into an Armour Raven), provided that 'split weapons' still mean bonuses to two separate and mutually exclusive weapon types. Have seen some odd definitions of it over the years, so just wanted to carve it into the proverbial stone.


Yes, I meant many sub capital ships are able field dual weapon system, despite not having bonuses to them. So why not allow this on capitals.

Also, although dual bonuses are being removed from tech 1 ships, it is still going to be present on the Navy versions.
androch
LitlCorp
#365 - 2013-04-10 14:47:00 UTC
that damage boost hardly compensates for the loss of a utility slot and an extra weapon, even with these bonuses its damage output will still be laughable next to their 3 turret cousins
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#366 - 2013-04-10 16:07:58 UTC
androch wrote:
that damage boost hardly compensates for the loss of a utility slot and an extra weapon, even with these bonuses its damage output will still be laughable next to their 3 turret cousins

Uh...that's not how that works.

A 50% damage bonus to two turrets means you effectively have 3 turrets. You fail at math.
Torshawna
Dutch Rudder Trading Company
#367 - 2013-04-10 19:53:16 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
androch wrote:
that damage boost hardly compensates for the loss of a utility slot and an extra weapon, even with these bonuses its damage output will still be laughable next to their 3 turret cousins

Uh...that's not how that works.

A 50% damage bonus to two turrets means you effectively have 3 turrets. You fail at math.


Shhh.... Don't tell him that after the patch the Naglfar Naglfar will only be out dps'd by the Moros, it will hurt his brain!
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#368 - 2013-04-11 11:22:19 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Andski wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/xNzo2Qs.jpg

this looks "interesting"

You should probably edit your post, considering this was your build of EFT that mistakenly assumed it was an ROF bonus and not a damage bonus.

That being said, Revelation is now the worst turret dread, by far.
http://i.imgur.com/8Jc6VXB.png
Comparison based on an Abaddon with MWD off and perfect transversal, with 3 TPs on him (a fair assumption since many tracking dreads have TPs), and our standard tracking fits with new tracking enhancers. The Naglfar out-DPS's the Moros here because the Moros uses 2x mag stabs, whereas the Nag uses 3.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#369 - 2013-04-11 13:26:55 UTC
Black Garius wrote:



EXACTLY. The Naglfar has a unique selling point with the dual weapons and any changes to it will DESTROY that uniqueness and with it destroys a LARGE portion of EvE as well. I like the way it is now that is why I trained for it and not the other Dreads wich I'll considered main stream in other words BORING AS HELL. Just for example for the dual weapons the Cyclone still have it and that not bothers anyone why this one get scrutinized?

NAGLFAR is a sophisticated ship as EvE itself LETS KEEP IT THAT WAY.



While it's cute to have something all unique and hipster-ish it does absolutely nothing to help gameplay. Yes they could fix the missiles and it would be nice since the phoenix is all but crap- however since they haven't this is a welcome change.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Black Garius
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#370 - 2013-04-11 15:43:56 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Black Garius wrote:



EXACTLY. The Naglfar has a unique selling point with the dual weapons and any changes to it will DESTROY that uniqueness and with it destroys a LARGE portion of EvE as well. I like the way it is now that is why I trained for it and not the other Dreads wich I'll considered main stream in other words BORING AS HELL. Just for example for the dual weapons the Cyclone still have it and that not bothers anyone why this one get scrutinized?

NAGLFAR is a sophisticated ship as EvE itself LETS KEEP IT THAT WAY.



While it's cute to have something all unique and hipster-ish it does absolutely nothing to help gameplay. Yes they could fix the missiles and it would be nice since the phoenix is all but crap- however since they haven't this is a welcome change.
P



Pardon me, but I don't see how the Naglfar split weapon system change effecting gameplay itself. Since only 1 dreadnought / race there is no competition between these ships in the same ship class and race. Therefore any changes to the Naglfar weapon layout is on a weak foundation, in fact it sound like a poor excuse to trash something which worked fine for me and I have firm belief it worked for others as well.

(BECAUSE YOU AND OTHERS COULDN'T BOTHER TO TRAIN FOR THE DUAL WEAPONS OR ANY OTHER REASONS DOES NOT CREATE A JUSTIFIABLE POSITION TO THROW OUT THE CURRENT WEAPON LAYOUT)


PS.: To make this thread really fair, the only people who can leave comment and any suggestion to its content to be the ones who have the MINMATAR DREADNOUGHT SKILL on LVL 4
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#371 - 2013-04-11 15:53:40 UTC
Black Garius wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Black Garius wrote:



EXACTLY. The Naglfar has a unique selling point with the dual weapons and any changes to it will DESTROY that uniqueness and with it destroys a LARGE portion of EvE as well. I like the way it is now that is why I trained for it and not the other Dreads wich I'll considered main stream in other words BORING AS HELL. Just for example for the dual weapons the Cyclone still have it and that not bothers anyone why this one get scrutinized?

NAGLFAR is a sophisticated ship as EvE itself LETS KEEP IT THAT WAY.



While it's cute to have something all unique and hipster-ish it does absolutely nothing to help gameplay. Yes they could fix the missiles and it would be nice since the phoenix is all but crap- however since they haven't this is a welcome change.
P



Pardon me, but I don't see how the Naglfar split weapon system change effecting gameplay itself. Since only 1 dreadnought / race there is no competition between these ships in the same ship class and race. Therefore any changes to the Naglfar weapon layout is on a weak foundation, in fact it sound like a poor excuse to trash something which worked fine for me and I have firm belief it worked for others as well.

(BECAUSE YOU AND OTHERS COULDN'T BOTHER TO TRAIN FOR THE DUAL WEAPONS OR ANY OTHER REASONS DOES NOT CREATE A JUSTIFIABLE POSITION TO THROW OUT THE CURRENT WEAPON LAYOUT)


PS.: To make this thread really fair, the only people who can leave comment and any suggestion to its content to be the ones who have the MINMATAR DREADNOUGHT SKILL on LVL 4

my alt has :P with capital missiles too
yea i cant see anything wrong with the current split weapon system , the only problem is the crappy capital missiles
changeing the ship just to dodge the problem isnt smart
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#372 - 2013-04-11 16:45:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
Black Garius wrote:

Pardon me, but I don't see how the Naglfar split weapon system change effecting gameplay itself. Since only 1 dreadnought / race there is no competition between these ships in the same ship class and race. Therefore any changes to the Naglfar weapon layout is on a weak foundation, in fact it sound like a poor excuse to trash something which worked fine for me and I have firm belief it worked for others as well.


Because citadel missiles can't even hit a supercarrier moving. It can't even hit another capital drifting in siege/triage.

So you have two weapons that can hit, and two that can't. The ship itself is completely broken.

I don't know how many times I can say that. There's a reason capital pilots don't currently fly a Nag. And that's because it is terrible.

Quote:

(BECAUSE YOU AND OTHERS COULDN'T BOTHER TO TRAIN FOR THE DUAL WEAPONS OR ANY OTHER REASONS DOES NOT CREATE A JUSTIFIABLE POSITION TO THROW OUT THE CURRENT WEAPON LAYOUT)


PS.: To make this thread really fair, the only people who can leave comment and any suggestion to its content to be the ones who have the MINMATAR DREADNOUGHT SKILL on LVL 4


You really shouldn't make assumptions. I can fly just about any ship below a titan in the game including the Nag, and use every weapon system.

I'm pretty damn well qualified to tell you that you are an idiot.


edit: aren't you the same moron that fought against Black ops BS having a larger fuel bay?

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#373 - 2013-04-11 17:24:36 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
I don't know how many times I can say that. There's a reason capital pilots don't currently fly a Nag. And that's because it is terrible.

BUT BUT BUT IT CAN SHOOT STRUCTURES, SO IT MUST BE OKAY

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Black Garius
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#374 - 2013-04-11 20:45:46 UTC
Quote:
Because citadel missiles can't even hit a super carrier moving. It can't even hit another capital drifting in siege/triage.

So you have two weapons that can hit, and two that can't. The ship itself is completely broken.

I don't know how many times I can say that. There's a reason capital pilots don't currently fly a Nag. And that's because it is terrible.



Still trying to make you're invalid point valid, citadel cruise does hit as the citadel torpedo as well (I'm surprised you didn't mentioned the torpedo, maybe just don't want to SLAG OFF two weapons in the same post). Tough the explosion velocity penalty comes from the siege module makes it a bit interesting I have to admit that.(Phoenix suffers most of this but doesn't makes it useless nor broken, at end of the day still the best DPS ship)

The drifting issue you mentioned on other capitals which are in siege/triage again movement penalty from the siege module eventually come to a full stop. Supers or Titans after they jumping in pretty much they pilling on each other any unnecessary movement turn them into bump festival. Titans after using there doomsday it become immobile aren't going anywhere in a hurry.



Quote:
You really shouldn't make assumptions. I can fly just about any ship below a titan in the game including the Nag, and use every weapon system.

I'm pretty damn well qualified to tell you that you are an idiot.


edit: aren't you the same moron that fought against Black ops BS having a larger fuel bay?



Assumptions no, simply stating a fact which is true or false is a different matter.
I'm pretty damn well qualified to tell you not going to EXAGGERATE myself on you.

Just for the record
editing your edit: NO, I'm aren't the same moron that fought against Black ops BS having a larger fuel bay. But feel free to troll the hell out of me if I have a post in that thread. BUT ONLY IN THAT THREAD.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#375 - 2013-04-12 01:06:35 UTC
Top damage dread! Just have to make sure your target isn't moving and it's the size of a small moon. ;)

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#376 - 2013-04-12 08:36:40 UTC
"(Phoenix suffers most of this but doesn't makes it useless nor broken, at end of the day still the best DPS ship)"

rly?
looks like Vincent Gaines was right especialy if you "fought against Black ops BS having a larger fuel bay"

"I'm pretty damn well qualified to tell you that you are an idiot."

phoenix is a crap , no wonder it costs hundred mills less than the actual dreads
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#377 - 2013-04-12 12:00:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
Black Garius wrote:
[

The drifting issue you mentioned on other capitals which are in siege/triage again movement penalty from the siege module eventually come to a full stop. Supers or Titans after they jumping in pretty much they pilling on each other any unnecessary movement turn them into bump festival. Titans after using there doomsday it become immobile aren't going anywhere in a hurry.



Have a fleet member bump you once you stop moving Big smile


Naomi Knight wrote:
"(Phoenix suffers most of this but doesn't makes it useless nor broken, at end of the day still the best DPS ship)"

rly?
looks like Vincent Gaines was right especialy if you "fought against Black ops BS having a larger fuel bay"

"I'm pretty damn well qualified to tell you that you are an idiot."

phoenix is a crap , no wonder it costs hundred mills less than the actual dreads



If you put a well fit phoenix against a well fit moros, at about 40-60km the phoenix will win every time, provided both are in siege and neither are coasting.

This bears in mind that you either use kinetic and take advantage of the bonus, or if the Moros pilot didn't fill their explosive hole well enough. With single dread on dread combat fitting an RAH might tip the balance from the Moros (however when I've been in the Phoenix I just quickly change ammo type). Apparently a well fit shield Moros will edge out the Phoenix, however we have been unable work this rumored viable fit effectively- yet.

If you're using a dread to strictly shoot towers there's really no better option than the Phoenix.

Back on topic, to the Nag, this is where the current setup isn't optimal. With the Phoenix, Rev, and Moros you have a defined purpose (although things don't always go as you want, they each have something they are "good at"). The Nag is stuck in la-la land given the problem with the missiles. In addition, it doesn't have a damage bonus to the missiles. This is a huge problem as the Phoenix's damage is compounded with having 3 launchers and a missile bonus. The nag only has a projectile bonus.. the missiles don't even come close to making up for it, even considering you have 4. Also, adding in the additional module really chews up your fitting.

With the Nag change, you can shield tank this like a beast and even with the upcoming TE changes it still puts out some amazing numbers in EFT. We're working on the test server to see what we can make this baby do.


I want to add, that with the TE changes the Moros' range and tracking is going to take a huge hit, and I think even more than it would harm any projectile dread.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#378 - 2013-04-13 02:59:14 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
I want to add, that with the TE changes the Moros' range and tracking is going to take a huge hit, and I think even more than it would harm any projectile dread.

Tracking isn't taking any hit at all, and range really isn't that much of an issue for the Moros.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#379 - 2013-04-13 12:46:34 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
I want to add, that with the TE changes the Moros' range and tracking is going to take a huge hit, and I think even more than it would harm any projectile dread.

Tracking isn't taking any hit at all, and range really isn't that much of an issue for the Moros.


Oh good

Range is an issue in wormholes. In fact a huge issue.

When you escalate a fight with one as the aggressor, there is only one spot you'll be.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Deacon Ix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#380 - 2013-04-15 13:56:15 UTC
I like the Nag changes as it does make it on a par training wise with the other dreads, for a skilled pilot the DPS was above average (I think it used to be top until the Moros buff) and the tank was slightly below average (which it should be if it has good DPS)

My main issue it that a long time ago I thought that the Nag was the best looking ship in hte game so I created a toon with the sole purpose of excelling at flying it.

This toon has every skill needed for the Nag at V, so with the torps being removed I now have a lvl V skill which I will never use.

This is more of a point I wished to highlight and I do think the Nag change was overdue and at teh the end of the day I will roll with it.

(the honest reason for having every Nag skill at lvl V is the reason anyone does anything in eve - Because I can)