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[Odyssey] T1 Frigate Polish Pass and Naglfar fix

First post
Author
Jureth22
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#401 - 2013-04-25 10:38:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Jureth22
is it logical for nagflar with 3500mm meta artilleries to fire faster than a machariel with 1400 II?

Big smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smile

seriosly nobody else sees a problem in that?
ale rico
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#402 - 2013-04-25 16:26:50 UTC
Maybe this was already answered, I didn't read the entire 21 pages... but: Will CCP reimburse the skill points of Citadel Torpedoes that players had trained just for the Naglfar?
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
Ushra'Khan
#403 - 2013-04-25 16:56:58 UTC
ale rico wrote:
Maybe this was already answered, I didn't read the entire 21 pages... but: Will CCP reimburse the skill points of Citadel Torpedoes that players had trained just for the Naglfar?


CCP will not reimburse those skill points. they would only reimburse, should these skills be removed from the game.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#404 - 2013-04-25 17:30:03 UTC
androch wrote:
just drop the damage bonus and give it a third turret, removing the missiles is a halfassed fix

The problem apparently is that they don't find it economically viable to devote the resources in remodeling the ship (even though the art department has stated on reddit that they would be happy to do anything put across their desk and wouldn't take very long).

This is an acceptable compromise.

Plus, having 2 turrets over 3 helps in PG, ISK cost, and ammo. I see it as a huge buff.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#405 - 2013-04-25 17:30:44 UTC
ale rico wrote:
Maybe this was already answered, I didn't read the entire 21 pages... but: Will CCP reimburse the skill points of Citadel Torpedoes that players had trained just for the Naglfar?

No, and it would be stupid to ask that they do.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#406 - 2013-04-26 23:48:50 UTC
Bumping the thread to make a point:

PLEASE look at vigil. Its useless atm
TomyLobo
U2EZ
#407 - 2013-04-28 09:33:04 UTC
As a nag pilot, I'm very pleased with the current changes but I think more needs to be done. The nag still needs another mid slot to compete with other dreads in the tanking department.
Jureth22
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#408 - 2013-04-28 09:38:37 UTC
Jureth22 wrote:
is it logical for nagflar with 3500mm meta artilleries to fire faster than a machariel with 1400 II?

Big smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smile

seriosly nobody else sees a problem in that?


bump
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#409 - 2013-04-28 10:29:48 UTC
Jureth22 wrote:
Jureth22 wrote:
is it logical for nagflar with 3500mm meta artilleries to fire faster than a machariel with 1400 II?

Big smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smile

seriosly nobody else sees a problem in that?


bump

What difference does it make?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#410 - 2013-04-28 18:36:30 UTC
Unforgiven Storm wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Full Naglfar changes are:
New Fixed Role Bonus: +50% Capital Projectile Weapon Damage
-2 High Slots
-2 Launcher Slots
-144000 Powergrid
-180 CPU



this just leaves the phoenix as the only pure and utter **** dread



Welcome to caldari hate. They have had it out for them for years. Tengu is only ship left that is worth the time. Though with the heavy missile nerf it hurt a little. The drake is on its way out.

The raven was getting a nerf, and its pretty much never used in pvp because it sucked .
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#411 - 2013-04-28 19:20:54 UTC
De'Veldrin wrote:
Caius Sivaris wrote:
Will you reimburse the SP I sunk in Citadel torps and cruise missiles?

I basically love the rebalance work, but I hate the impact on my SPs. The BC skill change will leave me with a Gallente BC 5 I have zero use for (I trained Gallente cruiser for angel ships, I have zero hybrid skills) and now the Naglfar changes will leave me with even more completely useless SP, that will still count toward my (stupidly expensive) clone cost.


No they won't. Don't even start this **** again, we're still getting threads from the damned Orca changes.

Also, in case anyone missed the point of my response:

NO. They are not reimbursing skill points for skills that still exist in game (even if you, personally, no longer need them). They never have and (hopefully) they never will. The only time skill reimbursements are done (based on CCP statements and past precedents) is when one of the following two criteria are met:

1. The skill (and it's underlying mechanic are removed from the game) - Learning Skills
2. There is a fluke that results in the character having skills trained which no longer have any in game benefit. (Not sure this one has ever happened, but the planned destroyer/battlecruiser reimbursements fall into this category, according to the Dev Blog from Ytterbium.)

This change meets neither of the two requirements above - the skill obviously will still exist, and it will have an in game benefit (just not to you any more).


Given how garbage the phoenix is, that would easily go under the game benefits category. Like for real.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#412 - 2013-04-28 19:26:32 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
De'Veldrin wrote:

We could try starting a "Hybrids for the Phoenixes" charity and see how much traction we can get?


Thing is though, how would you make it different to the Moros, yet still make both useful? Bonuses to damage and optimal maybe? Or damage and shield resists?


A slight less dps but a little more range?

I really wish they would make take the time to make the large missiles work for the phoenix, at this rate why not remove missiles from the game?

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#413 - 2013-04-28 19:30:19 UTC
Hagika wrote:
Unforgiven Storm wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Full Naglfar changes are:
New Fixed Role Bonus: +50% Capital Projectile Weapon Damage
-2 High Slots
-2 Launcher Slots
-144000 Powergrid
-180 CPU



this just leaves the phoenix as the only pure and utter **** dread



Welcome to caldari hate. They have had it out for them for years. Tengu is only ship left that is worth the time. Though with the heavy missile nerf it hurt a little. The drake is on its way out.

The raven was getting a nerf, and its pretty much never used in pvp because it sucked .

Seriously?
Need I list all the Caldari ships are great for PVP?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#414 - 2013-04-28 19:32:22 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
10% range bonuses.


Thanks for the reply. I don't really have many strong feelings on it, except that in general if there is a problem, then it's with specific ships (Cormorant?) rather than the 10% bonus as a whole. It may also be a problem restricted to artificial scenarios such as FW warp-in beacons, but if so that's a problem trivially countered by ewar. Certainly there's nothing wrong with the Ferox, Naga or Rokh having optimal bonuses, IMO.

Yes of couse one can work out attempts to counter. Some of which work better than others. But the fact that these are still used tells you that those counters do not "fully" counter, which is probably a good thing. My problem still stand though that the role is reserved for one race and one race only. Concurrently that race does not lose efficacy at any other role as a balance. If Caldari ships totally sucked at close range then ok the game design is universal role based exclusivity. But Caldari does have viable close range options. I'm actually ok with that. I think that's good, to have each race having role options even if some might considered "better" at certain roles. Unfortunately we are left with no non-Caldari options for sniper frigs and dessys etc.

edit- sniping is useful for more than just inside a fw plex. Corms can use that ability at star gates, outside acceleration gates, stations, many places. It would be nice if Coercers etc could fit somewhat reasonably similar. So that 100km Corms might be there, but also 80km Coercers or Thrashers (probably already in falloff heh) etc. As things are now, you can't approach anywhere near 100km with other turrets. And even sentry drones are a ***** to get that range on for larger ships forget about frigs or dessys (where's my cpu for DLA IIs and omnidirectionals Ugh)

edit 2 - and why are those optimal bonuses on the caldari gun boats always 10%? Noone esle is getting 10% range bonuses assuming they are even lucky enough to get range bonuses.


So we take away the little last advantage caldari has because they do not meet the dps of gallente and some others and just put the last nail into the coffin for them? Seriously why bother having caldari in the game when a handful of people hate the fact they have longer range, when they are swinging with less damage.

Tell you what, I will make the exception, Caldari loses the range bonus but gets a higher damage bonus than gallente, fair?
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#415 - 2013-04-28 19:35:31 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
Yes it is role exclusivity. There is a huge difference between 100km and 50km. How long is that 50km Coercer going to kite and fire before fast frigs start getting in tackle range and under the tracking of the long range guns. Do you have any characters that fly FW or some other pvp where they use these ships? As for missles yes you see Coraxes doing the snipey kitey tactic. It actually works quite well because of the volley delay (i.e. frig doesn't realize the next volley will take him down). Don't really see it with Talwars. But then what's the common denominator of Coraxs and Cormorants? Yep. And no, I don't see packs of 50km Coercers kiting and sniping. Why don't you convice a bunch of guys to try it with you and tell us all how it goes.

Beam lasers do significantly better DPS and have significantly better tracking than rails, and ammo can be swapped instantly. Fast tackle trying to get in range of a pack of coercers would be vaporized really, really fast.


With no damage or range mods, a Coercer with SFBL and Aurora has 40.5 + 5km range, 126 DPS, and 33% superior tracking to a 150mm Corm which has 105 DPS at 73km range. The corm gets a modest increase in range in exchange for a modest decrease in damage and tracking.

I fail to see the imbalance or exclusivity here.


It became inbalanced because caldari pilots got creative among the many setbacks of being a caldari pilot and found another way to put up a good fight and he cant stand that fact that he cant just face roll them and is here having a hissy fit.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#416 - 2013-04-28 20:39:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Hagika
Isbariya wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Good morning guys, as always thanks for the feedback and comments. I'm going to go over a few questions from the thread so far and then I have one small update to the plan.

Why are we talking about the Nag but not the problems with citadel missiles?
This change obviously does not fix all the dreadnaught balance, and we have never claimed that it does. Citadel missiles are much more limited in application than capital turrets, and that is a problem that we do intend to solve. However this Nag change is what we have ready to announce at this very moment.


How about adding two turret slots for the Phoenix then as well as a corresponding bonus. That would solve the problem - for the time beeing - for Caldari players as well.
If somehow the launcher slots can't be used as turret slots, just give the one turret slot a 200%dmg bonus.
It realy sucks how the Phoenix can't hit anything that moves just a tiny bit and this change would help.



How about 4 launcher slots and remove the kinetic bonus and give the ship a ROF or damage bonus to catch up in the dps game.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#417 - 2013-04-28 20:47:48 UTC
Peppermintstix wrote:
i cant be the only person who thought of how high the volley on these nags would be with arty...

About the same volley as a phoenix but from a much farther distance...

You could use these things as anti slow cats for sure if you got far enough away....imagine like 20 of these things cynoing in 100km away from a slowcat fleet... you would only need 5 or 6 of em to volley a carrier.

so something like 4 carriers getting popped every 15 secs :D even 2 would be pretty cool



Now just take a moment to think how the phoenix pilots feel.
Jureth22
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#418 - 2013-04-28 20:48:21 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Jureth22 wrote:
Jureth22 wrote:
is it logical for nagflar with 3500mm meta artilleries to fire faster than a machariel with 1400 II?

Big smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smileBig smile

seriosly nobody else sees a problem in that?


bump

What difference does it make?



yes it does.doesnt seem logical tbh
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#419 - 2013-04-28 20:59:09 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Viqer Fell wrote:


There is nothing wrong with split weapon system ships. What there is a problem with is introducing new ships without thinking about the balancing beforehand. So glad my time invested in training for capital missiles is now wasted just to pander to the people like yourself who don't have the patience to train up for stuff.



Oh my god, stop crying.

Really.

Hell back in 2008 I trained large hybrids even though they were worthless, because I liked them and figured they'd get a buff. Guess what, they did. All that wasted training time is no longer wasted.

I trained up capital torps AS WELL AS CRUISE and fly a moros, I haven't touched a phoenix in years. You don't see me whining.

Your training time was your decision, knowing full well that you were training for a weapons system that was complete crap. If you were using a Nag over a moros these days you were either stupidly lucky to survive, or never even used it.

These "wasted SP time" arguments are terrible. To train citadels you skilled up Torps to V and Missile launcher operation to V. Both skills are very useful in countless other ship classes and races.

Your only "wasted" time is from the Citadel missile skill itself. considering CCP in the meantime has offered free SP for removing learning skills and several remaps, you are fine.


Now, stop complaining because a projectile Nag is awesome.


That is because you fly a moros, now stop flying moros and go back to phoenix, then come back singing the same tune.. Oh wait, you stopped flying it because it sucked..
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#420 - 2013-04-28 21:07:30 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Andski wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/xNzo2Qs.jpg

this looks "interesting"

You should probably edit your post, considering this was your build of EFT that mistakenly assumed it was an ROF bonus and not a damage bonus.

That being said, Revelation is now the worst turret dread, by far.
http://i.imgur.com/8Jc6VXB.png
Comparison based on an Abaddon with MWD off and perfect transversal, with 3 TPs on him (a fair assumption since many tracking dreads have TPs), and our standard tracking fits with new tracking enhancers. The Naglfar out-DPS's the Moros here because the Moros uses 2x mag stabs, whereas the Nag uses 3.



Better than being the worst dread by far What?