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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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Thallius O'Quinn
The Suicide Kings
Deepwater Hooligans
#161 - 2013-01-08 23:43:00 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:



Also, can you comment on the reasoning for the very minor changes in hp? Like taking 16 structure away from the cane seems just a strange thing to decide on


Because 3500 is easier to do math on than 3516.
Edward Pierce
State War Academy
Caldari State
#162 - 2013-01-08 23:45:29 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
The targeting ranges seem pretty low compared to what all the other modified ships have gotten. There are frigates that target twice as far as a hurricane for example.


Also, can you comment on the reasoning for the very minor changes in hp? Like taking 16 structure away from the cane seems just a strange thing to decide on.

I think the ferox is still subpar - you still dont snipe with medium rails, and the brutix outdoes it as a close range blaster platform.

Same for the myrm and prophecy - drones as a weapons platform have some serious problems, and even just tracking bonused guns would help both ships a lot.


You are aware this is base targeting range right? Even the Kitsune has less base targeting range than the lowest Minmatar BC...
Sigras
Conglomo
#163 - 2013-01-08 23:46:05 UTC
IMHO blaster ships should not also be combat ships, all blaster ships should be attack ships . . .

I see combat ships more like the galaxy class starships, there really isnt much maneuvering to be done with it, it basically just sits and shoots; the ships that you see moving around a lot are the defiant class or intrepid class (voyager) these are the attack ships meant to take the fight to the enemy.

Blaster ships lack the range to just sit and shoot, all blaster ships should be attack ships

To that end, I propose to remove the brutix from the combat ship line and reintroduce it as an attack ship, just like you swapped the thorax and the vexor.

This would add to the flavor of the game as gallente would have 2 attack ships and one combat ship feeding their aggressive "in your face nature" as opposed to everyone elses 2 combat and 1 attack lineup.

To differentiate them, i would give the brutix the talos' tracking bonus and the talos a falloff bonus. That way the brutix becomes the "get in your face and beat stuff down" ship, and the talos can use the already native-ly longer falloff of the large guns plus its bonus to hit from a longer range and kite with its speed.
Mund Richard
#164 - 2013-01-08 23:52:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Sigras wrote:
To that end, I propose to remove the brutix from the combat ship line and reintroduce it as an attack ship, just like you swapped the thorax and the vexor.

This would add to the flavor of the game as gallente would have 2 attack ships and one combat ship feeding their aggressive "in your face nature" as opposed to everyone elses 2 combat and 1 attack lineup.

To differentiate them, i would give the brutix the talos' tracking bonus and the talos a falloff bonus. That way the brutix becomes the "get in your face and beat stuff down" ship, and the talos can use the already native-ly longer falloff of the large guns plus its bonus to hit from a longer range and kite with its speed.

I like the innovative way of thinking there, it's not like molds aren't broken elsewhere, like with the caldari and only one each attack and combat battleship for instance.
And the two would get a nice differentiation that way.

edit: fast and dirty napkin math with the current stats:
Full neutron blaster with T2 ammo, 2 damage mod in the lows.
Thorax 670 vs 744 Vexor, tracking bonus and mobility vs hull hp and drone bonus, same slots.
Brutix 875 vs 896 Myrm, "nothing" vs drone HP and an extra midslot.

I'm feeling like I forgot what I wanted to make a point of.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Ntrails
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
#165 - 2013-01-08 23:55:25 UTC
I, for one, look forward to seeing utility highs on my Naglfar
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#166 - 2013-01-08 23:56:06 UTC
Kismeteer wrote:
Please consider changing the +rep bonuses to Hardening bonuses or something that scales better with fleets.
Tuxedo Catfish wrote:
Please reconsider the active armor tank bonuses on the Gallente hulls, or at least on the Brutix. They're completely useless for anything but solo and the smallest gangs, and really, when was the last time you saw a solo Brutix?

I'd prefer *not* to see all BC/BS ships redesigned around a fleet-only focus.

Despite rumors to the contrary, solo and small gang PVP are not dead. Many of us still prefer faster/smaller scale PVP, in which logi support isn't always available.

Also, many players still run missions solo, or in small gangs, where the active rep bonuses are needed. I used an active-tank Brutix for running L3 missions solo, until I skilled up to fly a BS.

That said, active armor repping is certainly long overdue for a buff.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#167 - 2013-01-08 23:56:46 UTC
It might just be me, but I feel that the Algos, and the Tristan got the best mix for the hybrid/drone weapon system.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Edward Pierce
State War Academy
Caldari State
#168 - 2013-01-08 23:57:30 UTC
Sigras wrote:
IMHO blaster ships should not also be combat ships, all blaster ships should be attack ships . . .

I see combat ships more like the galaxy class starships, there really isnt much maneuvering to be done with it, it basically just sits and shoots; the ships that you see moving around a lot are the defiant class or intrepid class (voyager) these are the attack ships meant to take the fight to the enemy.

Blaster ships lack the range to just sit and shoot, all blaster ships should be attack ships

To that end, I propose to remove the brutix from the combat ship line and reintroduce it as an attack ship, just like you swapped the thorax and the vexor.

This would add to the flavor of the game as gallente would have 2 attack ships and one combat ship feeding their aggressive "in your face nature" as opposed to everyone elses 2 combat and 1 attack lineup.

To differentiate them, i would give the brutix the talos' tracking bonus and the talos a falloff bonus. That way the brutix becomes the "get in your face and beat stuff down" ship, and the talos can use the already native-ly longer falloff of the large guns plus its bonus to hit from a longer range and kite with its speed.


The problem here is that railguns have horrid tracking, so if you're not sniping, you're not doing any damage. The Gallente mid-range combat is done with drones, so the Myrmidon would fill your "combat ship" role; the Myrmidon is not a blaster boat. The Brutix with its current layout makes a good blaster boat, but it's current armor bonus is lacking compared to a armor resist bonus.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#169 - 2013-01-08 23:58:14 UTC
Ntrails wrote:
I, for one, look forward to seeing utility highs on my Naglfar

It has one, but most everyone puts a Siege Module II in that slot.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Sigras
Conglomo
#170 - 2013-01-09 00:00:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigras
Mund Richard wrote:
Sigras wrote:
To that end, I propose to remove the brutix from the combat ship line and reintroduce it as an attack ship, just like you swapped the thorax and the vexor.

This would add to the flavor of the game as gallente would have 2 attack ships and one combat ship feeding their aggressive "in your face nature" as opposed to everyone elses 2 combat and 1 attack lineup.

To differentiate them, i would give the brutix the talos' tracking bonus and the talos a falloff bonus. That way the brutix becomes the "get in your face and beat stuff down" ship, and the talos can use the already native-ly longer falloff of the large guns plus its bonus to hit from a longer range and kite with its speed.

I like the innovative way of thinking there, it's not like molds aren't broken elsewhere, like with the caldari and only one each attack and combat battleship for instance.
However, the Vexor has only one less bonused turret than the Thorax, while also gaining bonused drones.
Compared to that, the Myrm would be ...lacking?
One less hardpoint, all unbonused, doesn't sound like that good a trade-off for +50 bandwidth.
Baybe I'd think differently if I did the math.

its true, but right now theyre both a bit lacking . . . and the myrm is a pretty good tank and gank ship as it stands . . .

Also drones and projectiles (the myrm's weapon of choice) is actually pretty good if you have to be (relatively) immobile.
Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#171 - 2013-01-09 00:00:37 UTC
My Feedback;

Brutix: Overall solid changes rounding out this ship, the 7.5% active armor tanking bonus is still a bit lackluster however. The Brutix still seems a bit too vulnerable to be an Armor Bruiser to me, no tracking bonus or utility highslot, loses damage if it goes for a flight of light drones. Prehaps a sneaky +25m3 drone bay would be nice? Giving it similar treatment to the Harbinger, -1 turret, 5% bonus goes to 10% bonus, lower the bandwidth to 25m3 would also make it more attractive to use.

Myrmidon: Moving more of it's damage output to drones is a good thing. Solid changes. Same thing about the 7.5% armor repair amount bonus as above

Prophecy: Changes seem pretty good.

Harbinger: Nice changes. The CPU could use a tad improvement though.

Ferox: Not sure what this provides next to the Naga, its slower, has less range and does less damage. It is quite a bit tankier though and has a drone bay so I guess it's not as vulnerable as the Naga is outside of fleets.

Drake: Drake was always the best BC, nice to see it got a slap on the wrist

Cyclone: Good changes I feel.

Hurricane: Again, nice to see the Hurricane getting a slap on the wrist.

Overall these are nice changes and all going in the right direction

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Jita iswhereIsit
Doomheim
#172 - 2013-01-09 00:00:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Jita iswhereIsit
I will wait to see until they're on the test server but It would be nice for the Cane to have some PG back, I thought the main idea of removing it was to remove the option of 2nuets without a PDU. Its quite hard now to fit a T2 plate and have 220s so the small amount of extra PG would help.

I like the Brutix getting the extra lowslot as it will now be a viable armor tanker and can use its bonus. The drake may be getting hit a little too hard with the recent HM nerf on top (I still think missiles in general need looking at), maybe the drake should stay as it is (being it was the most controversial) and wait to see how things play out with the other BC changes and how the drake fits, they're is always the chance of nerfing it too hard and it not being useful in anyway and not be looked at again (ala incursions :( ) for a while.

The Cyclone being made into a missile boat is dumb just because I think missiles need work.

Overall I would say these aren't really that significant, I was hoping for a complete change to most of them (like T1 cruisers) but they're really staying in the same roles with very small fitting/bonus changes.
Edward Pierce
State War Academy
Caldari State
#173 - 2013-01-09 00:02:18 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Kismeteer wrote:
Please consider changing the +rep bonuses to Hardening bonuses or something that scales better with fleets.
Tuxedo Catfish wrote:
Please reconsider the active armor tank bonuses on the Gallente hulls, or at least on the Brutix. They're completely useless for anything but solo and the smallest gangs, and really, when was the last time you saw a solo Brutix?

I'd prefer *not* to see all BC/BS ships redesigned around a fleet-only focus.

Despite rumors to the contrary, solo and small gang PVP are not dead. Many of us still prefer faster/smaller scale PVP, in which logi support isn't always available.

Also, many players still run missions solo, or in small gangs, where the active rep bonuses are needed. I used an active-tank Brutix for running L3 missions solo, until I skilled up to fly a BS.

That said, active armor repping is certainly long overdue for a buff.


The problem with the +rep bonus is that it only applies to local reps, so if you want to use a tank buffer it won't work, if you have a logi with you it won't work.

A resist bonus works for both active and passive tanks, it also works if you have logi with you.

You see, we don't want all ships to need to be in a fleet to be good, we want all ships to be good with or without the fleet.
Sigras
Conglomo
#174 - 2013-01-09 00:06:49 UTC
Edward Pierce wrote:
Sigras wrote:
IMHO blaster ships should not also be combat ships, all blaster ships should be attack ships . . .

I see combat ships more like the galaxy class starships, there really isnt much maneuvering to be done with it, it basically just sits and shoots; the ships that you see moving around a lot are the defiant class or intrepid class (voyager) these are the attack ships meant to take the fight to the enemy.

Blaster ships lack the range to just sit and shoot, all blaster ships should be attack ships

To that end, I propose to remove the brutix from the combat ship line and reintroduce it as an attack ship, just like you swapped the thorax and the vexor.

This would add to the flavor of the game as gallente would have 2 attack ships and one combat ship feeding their aggressive "in your face nature" as opposed to everyone elses 2 combat and 1 attack lineup.

To differentiate them, i would give the brutix the talos' tracking bonus and the talos a falloff bonus. That way the brutix becomes the "get in your face and beat stuff down" ship, and the talos can use the already native-ly longer falloff of the large guns plus its bonus to hit from a longer range and kite with its speed.


The problem here is that railguns have horrid tracking, so if you're not sniping, you're not doing any damage. The Gallente mid-range combat is done with drones, so the Myrmidon would fill your "combat ship" role; the Myrmidon is not a blaster boat. The Brutix with its current layout makes a good blaster boat, but it's current armor bonus is lacking compared to a armor resist bonus.

im not looking for my "combat ship" to be a mid range fighter . . . if youre referring to my suggestion on the talos i was thinking of blaster falloff to kite around 20 km which would almost be in optimal range for null ammo

also im not sure what you mean by "mid range" is that 50 - 100 km?

I was just saying that the brutix (as with all blaster ships) makes a better attack ship than a combat ship; then i gave a way to differentiate the talos and the brutix as they'd both be blaster attack ships.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#175 - 2013-01-09 00:27:16 UTC
Edward Pierce wrote:


You are aware this is base targeting range right? Even the Kitsune has less base targeting range than the lowest Minmatar BC...


You are aware the t2 frigates havent been buffed yet, right?
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#176 - 2013-01-09 00:31:03 UTC
Edward Pierce wrote:
The problem with the +rep bonus is that it only applies to local reps, so if you want to use a tank buffer it won't work, if you have a logi with you it won't work.

A resist bonus works for both active and passive tanks, it also works if you have logi with you.

You see, we don't want all ships to need to be in a fleet to be good, we want all ships to be good with or without the fleet.

I think you forget that, unlike shields, armor does not self-repair. To keep your armor tank buffer up, in a prolonged battle or on a roam, you need an armor repper - local or RR.

In solo PVP and PVE, you don't have a logi. So, esp. when running L3 or L4 missions solo, the armor rep bonus is more valuable than an armor resist bonus.

And, even when you do have a logi in a small gang, he/she is usually pretty darn busy, or jammed - anyone who can local rep helps take the pressure off the logi pilot. Also, when your logi gets popped, the rest of your armor gang isn't automatically SOL.

In a nutshell, Ed, what works for a fleet does not necessarily work for solo or small gangs. You can't design around a "one size fits all" model.

The Myrmidon, for example, is fairly useless for large fleet work, even with a resist bonus. Unbonused turrets and drones just aren't fleet weapons.
Razefummel
Unknown Dimension
#177 - 2013-01-09 00:33:35 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

The Cyclone is swapping its projectile bonus for a missile RoF bonus, giving it the ability to spew missile of any damage type desired. This should help provide more variety of ships to Minmatar pilots who enjoy Breacher/Talwar/Bellicose gameplay and want to go bigger.
...


There are some Points i dont get yet...

Minatar and Gallente are Allys right?
Caldaris and Amarr are Allys too right?

Why did you gave MISSILES to Minmatar and DRONES to the Amarrians?

Isn´t ist funny that Minmatars got an DMG Bonus for Missiles in All DMG Types in form of RoF Bonus and The Caldaris keeps the Kinetic Bonus? Don´t get me wrong, but i think the Minmatar-Users realy enjoy its Proiectile Turrets and an good Option for Angel-Ships and also the Gallentean Drone Boats in that Skillingtree.

Therfore the Caldari-Users share theyre weaponary with there Enemys ... Hybrid Turrets with Gallente and Missiles in the Future with the Minmatars.

I´m fearing the Day the Battleships will be "balanced".

I wonder how long it takes to nerf the Caldari completly because Gallente and Minmatar will do more DPS than any Caldariship will do... so after that "Missile Change" RANGE don´t will be the Argument to use Caldari-Missileboats like the Caldari Turretships incase of the Gallente Variations.

Btw. If the Tengu is realy the Problem why don´t fix just that Ship in case of nerfing an whole Race?

I´m just wondering.

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Unknown Dimension Forum
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#178 - 2013-01-09 00:34:16 UTC
I would have absolutely loved to see the Prophecy become a HAM ship but I sincerely doubt I'm going to get that.

As for what it is here it definitely looks better than the current Prophecy 7 lows and resist bonus will be a massive tank and the drones do present the possibility of damage worth worrying about if you can apply it, think I'd like to try that one before I commit my judgement on it. Whatever I get the 4 mids is going to make me smile no matter what.

One thing is certain though, you will NEVER see lasers on it. It will be fit with missiles, autocannons or utility, pretty much always is my first impression.

By the way I've seen a lot of posts about nerfing the Harb and only the mobility and hp hits concern me. 6 turrets with 10% bonus is like 9 unbonused turrets compared with 8.75 which you get right now with 7 turrets and a 5% bonus. With that extra 1/4 turret I might add your cap cost for firing the grouping has gone down by 1/7 as well. The damage is a buff and much appreciated. Now if only I could move.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#179 - 2013-01-09 00:34:25 UTC
Hey Fozzie !

Interesting changes, but I agree with the Gentlemen complaining about the 7,5% active rep bonuses. May I bring this thread to your attention? It has been out there for a while and has the subject pretty much covered.

It's not too long and has good arguments from various people in it. I think it's worth your time.

I also agree that a cut in CPU is the last thing the Harbinger needs, even with one turret removed.

I'm really looking forward to the additional turret on the Ferox though.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#180 - 2013-01-09 00:36:15 UTC
Zagdul wrote:
Brutix:
Battlecruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
7.5% Hybrid Turret Optimal Range (or tracking)
Fixed Bonus:
99% reduction in the CPU need of Warfare Link modules
Slot layout: 7 H, 5 M (+1), 5 L, 7 turrets
Fittings: 1200 PWG (+50), 435 CPU (+10)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 4000 / 4000 / 5000(+117)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 3000(+656.25) / 789s(+164s) / 3.8 (+0.05)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 155 / 0.704(+0.0352) / 12250000 (-1,000,000) / 8.1s (-0.2)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km / 200 / 7
Sensor strength: 18 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 305 (+5)
Cargo capacity: 475 (+75)


Edit: This would make the Brutix a very versatile ship and allow it to be used in many circumstances. It'd truly make it a 'brawling' ship that newbies can get into pretty easily.

The changes I've adjusted remove it's useless armor repair bonus and give it something that actually benefits the ship and it's design. I like bonus on the myrm however so why are we cookie cutting that on to the brutix? This also gives it the choice, it can be shield or armor.
Agreed! I think its very clear that of the active tanking ships, we Gallente certainly don't need TWO BCs to have that bonus (even if active armor tanking is to be improved).

One BATTLEcruiser ought to be about all out battle (think: Hurricane vs. Cyclone), whilst the Myrm could easily fill the "tough tank (while drones do the business)" role. Personally, I'd love to see either armor repping be completely overhauled, so as to give faster cycle times (like small reppers already do) and more bonus per level (10% vs 7.5%), like the Incursus.

There's something fundamentally wrong that I need to use a triple repping, dual cap injected Myrm to be able to keep up with a single XL-ASB Cyclone.

I think giving the brutix a dual-role damage bonus is the way to go. I think the bonus should be for Falloff, though, so at least it could still apply damage out of optimal range (sort of like what the Proteus does with a falloff bonus).

P.S. A note on the Ferox: optimal range bonus is terrible, since the Naga will almost always outshine it. And if it is a sniper boat, why the heck have a +tanking bonus on it, since its not going to be hit anyway?? If you want it to be range-ier than a Gallente boat, which is why I'm sure you have +optimal bonus, then just have it apply (something nuts) like +15% damage per level to RAILS ONLY. (Tracking is going to be a problem, and the range issue still conflicts with a +tanking bonus, but its something).

Another thought on the Ferox is to make it the +active shield gunboat that we're losing in the Cyclone, although +active tanking is not very Caldari-esque.

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