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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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Author
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#141 - 2013-01-08 23:05:32 UTC
4LeafClover wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Right now Gallente is the ONLY race that has mulutple ships with split weapon systems.

You're kidding right?


List some.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Mund Richard
#142 - 2013-01-08 23:07:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Edward Pierce wrote:
Mund Richard wrote:
Torri Bernard wrote:
My point exactly. Armor based drone boats dont work.
Before the Drone Damage Amplifier, they weren't too bad.
Now you want both DDAs and heatsinks/magstabs/BCU(Shocked) even on the base versions.
Or you could do like all other Amarr drone boats are doing and fit some nos/neut.
The prophecy looks like it could do well with 4 HM/HAM and a medium neut. The 75 bandwidth is exactly what the Myrmidon has now but with an extra low and a better tank bonus.

I suppose.
So one neut, loosing two guns and one heavy's worth of bandwidth, for a better tanking bonus.
Not quite sure...
I'm inclined to try it though.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Lili Lu
#143 - 2013-01-08 23:11:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Oh Fozzie, I'm sorta underwhelmed and disappointed. Sad Admittedly, I'm not yet crunching numbers to see what fits, but here are my impressions and worries -

Stupid 7.5 armor repairer bonus still on both gallente BCs? Ugh This is useless unless you imprve MARs, or massively up the grid, and if you do that then lots of people will just fit plates for fleet work. Then they will still be left with a ship with one used bonus.

The overdone 10% optimal still on the longest range guns in the game for the Ferox What? Can you not see the problem with giving rails the most base optimal and then topping it off with a 10% per level bonus on all the Caldari ships? Tone it down to 7.5%. And why are both Caldari BCs retaining a resist bonus? It is so much better than the peice of **** 7.5 armor repairer bonus on the gallente BCs. At least you didn't massively buff the Drake with a rof bonus. But, where is the "rebalancing" I was expecting when I opened this thread page?

Why is the Cyclone so much more blessed in fitting than the Cane now? ASB sure, but with all that grid I suppose you could fit a better armor tank on the damn thing than on the Cane as well. You already took a high away from the Cane. The dual neut phenomenon will be a thing of the past (unless someone wants to sacrifice a turret). So why is the cane going to be starved for grid (are 720s, a mwd, and a 1600 still possible?)?

Ugh, that prophecy. So it's now a vexor with more tank. Not very exciting tbh. And the Harby, still the 10% cap use reduction bonus.Straight Nothing innovative here. Lasers are not all that that this ship can do anything special. At least you are removing the irritating offset turret from below the nose. But what does this ship really have going for it? Still nothing special and the resist bonused Drakes and Feroxes will continue to be much preferred over it.

Laslty, you do not mention anything about fixing the BC shield regen imbalance. Still giving almost a BS sized shield an almost cruiser sized shield regen time leads to not enough nerf on the passive shield BC ubiquity. If some poor ******* has to continue to self nerf his own grid to fit a cap injector(s) and multiple MARs to make anything of the stupid armor repairer bonus on the gallente ships, but there is no increase in shield regen time on BCs overall the passive shield regen will still be better tank for pve in BCs than any cap charge nomnoming multi-MAR or milktoast single MAR tank on an armor BC.

Please start shaking these ships up some more. After so much relatively good work with Cruisers and Frigs, I am disappoint.Straight

Edit - Having just read Sigras' post, lol so true. Now instead of 425 dual med neut canes I suppose we'll see HAM dual neut Cyclones instead.
Sigras
Conglomo
#144 - 2013-01-08 23:12:57 UTC
so wait . . . you all seem upset that they took away the second high slot from the hurricane because you wanted that utility high . . .

Then in the same breath you scream that a split weapon system sucks on the cyclone because it has two utility highs?

forgive me if this sounds dumb but the hurricane has 2 missile launcher slots that it can fill those highs up with . . . why not complain about the hurricane's former split weapon system?
Edward Pierce
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#145 - 2013-01-08 23:15:37 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Edward Pierce wrote:
Mund Richard wrote:
Torri Bernard wrote:
My point exactly. Armor based drone boats dont work.
Before the Drone Damage Amplifier, they weren't too bad.
Now you want both DDAs and heatsinks/magstabs/BCU(Shocked) even on the base versions.
Or you could do like all other Amarr drone boats are doing and fit some nos/neut.
The prophecy looks like it could do well with 4 HM/HAM and a medium neut. The 75 bandwidth is exactly what the Myrmidon has now but with an extra low and a better tank bonus.

I suppose.
So one neut, loosing two guns and one heavy's worth of bandwidth, for a better tanking bonus.
Not quite sure...
I'm inclined to try it though.


The extra low is pretty important since the drone damage amps are low slots. The extra 5% armor resist is effectively giving you an extra low with massive resists that don't incur diminishing returns.

On the Myrmidon you have an extra heavy drone (4 instead of 3) so 33% more damage, but one drone damage amp less. You get a 37.5% better repair efficiency, but this pales compared to 25% to all resists with no diminishing returns.

Unless they fix the armor rep bonus to be useful with remote reps, the Myrmidon is pretty terrible with an armor tank, while the Prophecy looks like what the Myrmidon has always wanted to be.
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#146 - 2013-01-08 23:19:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Warde Guildencrantz
Kogh Ayon wrote:
Brutix

The boost on brutix may not enough to make it a good solo ship, the problems :
1, odd damage type
2, damage type problem can be solved by drones, but there's dilemma at choosing ecm drones or Infiltrators/Valkyries
(implies more drone bay)
3, No utility high to fit neut to kill mission ships, nor being able to fit cloak to travel into hostile space.
(implies an utility high)

So the usage of armor brutix will still be restrict to ~5 man small gang, can't solo, can't join bigger fights.


Harbinger

Don't get the logic to nerf this ship, isn't it **** enough already that people even use omen rather than harbinger?


so, 6 turrets with a 50% bonus (9 turrets) isnt as good as 7 turrets with a 25% bonus (8.75 turrets)? Sounds fine to me. You even get to keep your utility high, unlike the drake, and the cane lost one of its utility highs as well. Harby is probably keeps the most of its current goodness out of all tier 2 BCs, along with the myrm.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us

Mund Richard
#147 - 2013-01-08 23:22:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Edward Pierce wrote:
Unless they fix the armor rep bonus to be useful with remote reps, the Myrmidon is pretty terrible with an armor tank, while the Prophecy looks like what the Myrmidon has always wanted to be.
And it wasn't me, who said it!

Well, one thing the Myrm is still possibly better at (depending on the unlisted shield recharge rate), is passive shield tanking (Roll), and using the lows for damage mods.

Though quite a bit of shield was taken away...
...Reminds me, why take away armor, buffing hull above it's amount, if so dead-set on keeping armor repair bonuses.
Gallente ships?
Has a thousand less armor than the Prophecy AND a low less AND no resist bonus.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Isengrimus
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#148 - 2013-01-08 23:24:38 UTC
Loki Vice wrote:
why are you nerfing the harb across the board? it already barely gets flown


This.
I mean, seriously? It's the weakest all the tier 2 BCs at the moment already, why nerfing it any further? Losing 1 turret means 12,5% decrease in DPS, the lame +5% bonus increase will not compensate it.
Edward Pierce
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#149 - 2013-01-08 23:25:12 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Edward Pierce wrote:
Unless they fix the armor rep bonus to be useful with remote reps, the Myrmidon is pretty terrible with an armor tank, while the Prophecy looks like what the Myrmidon has always wanted to be.
And it wasn't me, who said it!

Well, one thing the Myrm is still possibly better at (depending on the unlisted shield recharge rate), is passive shield tanking (Roll), and using the lows for damage mods.


With 400 CPU? Unlikely.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#150 - 2013-01-08 23:27:45 UTC
Sigras wrote:
so wait . . . you all seem upset that they took away the second high slot from the hurricane because you wanted that utility high . . .

Then in the same breath you scream that a split weapon system sucks on the cyclone because it has two utility highs?

forgive me if this sounds dumb but the hurricane has 2 missile launcher slots that it can fill those highs up with . . . why not complain about the hurricane's former split weapon system?


Because:

Quote:

Dear Capsuleers.
Two utility highslots is not the same as split weapons.
All the best.
-Love Fozzie


CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Edward Pierce
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#151 - 2013-01-08 23:28:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Edward Pierce
Isengrimus wrote:
Loki Vice wrote:
why are you nerfing the harb across the board? it already barely gets flown


This.
I mean, seriously? It's the weakest all the tier 2 BCs at the moment already, why nerfing it any further? Losing 1 turret means 12,5% decrease in DPS, the lame +5% bonus increase will not compensate it.


6 turrets with a 50% damage bonus means: 6 * 1.5 = 9. So the damage equivalent of 9 turrets with the cap use and cost of 6.

7 turrets with a 25% damage bonus means: 7 * 1.25 = 8.75. So the damage equivalent of 8.75 turrets with the cap use and cost of 7.

Is this really that difficult?

EDIT:
Also consider the PG and CPU required to fit 7 vs 6 turrets

For those of you too dumb to figure this out. 7 turrets cost more and use more cap than 6 turrets. Having a ship be more expensive and use more cap to fire its guns makes it worse. These changes make the Harbinger a better ship.

Better, its a buff, not a nerf.
Mund Richard
#152 - 2013-01-08 23:29:16 UTC
Isengrimus wrote:
Loki Vice wrote:
why are you nerfing the harb across the board? it already barely gets flown


This.
I mean, seriously? It's the weakest all the tier 2 BCs at the moment already, why nerfing it any further? Losing 1 turret means 12,5% decrease in DPS, the lame +5% bonus increase will not compensate it.

Has been posted before, but...
7*1,25 = 8,75
6*1,5 = 9
And less cap usage for the weapons.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Apathetic Brent
TURN LEFT
HYDRA RELOADED
#153 - 2013-01-08 23:31:58 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:



Drake:
Battlecruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to all Shield Resistances
5% bonus to heavy and heavy assault missile kinetic damage

Fixed Bonus:
99% reduction in the CPU need of Warfare Link modules
Slot layout: 7 H (-1), 6 M, 4 L , 7 Launchers
Fittings: 840 PWG (-10), 515 CPU (-10)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 5250(-219) / 3250(-658) / 4000(+94)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 2500(-312.5) / 658s(-92s) / 3.8 (+0.05)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 140 / 0.64(+0.012) / 14810000 (+800,000) / 8.9s (+0.7)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 195 / 8
Sensor strength: 19 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 295 (+10)
Cargo capacity: 450 (+105)


Why do you hate me? The Drake get's its HML damage reduced, then I hear about the kin bonus getting removed for omni. I'm down with that. Taking out the extra high is fine. You don't put anything there on most fits anyhow, but then further reducing fitting....Taking away shield and armor THEN GIVING IT 800K MORE MASS!!!

Baby, you know I love you and I want to have your children, but don't take advantage of my heart like this. Get rid of the kin bonus and make it omni and I'll ignore the fact that the only thing this does better now is loot ****.
Isengrimus
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#154 - 2013-01-08 23:35:01 UTC
I'm not good at maths (obviously) but still, don't you think less armor and PG does not seem to be a wise thing to do to a shitties BC in game already. :P
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#155 - 2013-01-08 23:35:47 UTC

Cyclone = Why only 5 launchers????

Myrm+Brutix = I really wish you could give them different bonuses from each other than the armor rep bonus. It seems like it's just a lack of creativity here. Give the Brutix a different bonus.

Drake+Ferox = Same thing. I know that both could use the resist bonus, but seriously - why can't we do something a bit more creative with these second bonuses than give them the same one for each?

I guess I don't quite get why you're doing what you're doing with the Harbinger overall.

I'm curious to see how these slightly less HP BC's are going to stand in the new age.


Where I am.

Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#156 - 2013-01-08 23:37:30 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Sigras wrote:
so wait . . . you all seem upset that they took away the second high slot from the hurricane because you wanted that utility high . . .

Then in the same breath you scream that a split weapon system sucks on the cyclone because it has two utility highs?

forgive me if this sounds dumb but the hurricane has 2 missile launcher slots that it can fill those highs up with . . . why not complain about the hurricane's former split weapon system?


Because:

Quote:

Dear Capsuleers.
Two utility highslots is not the same as split weapons.
All the best.
-Love Fozzie





Hans.. I think you misread his comment.. He was pointing out the hypocrisy in the whinning about the 2 launchers.
4LeafClover
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#157 - 2013-01-08 23:37:44 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
4LeafClover wrote:
How many missile snipe ships do you see out there......? "crickets"


How many cyclones do you see sniping out there.......? "crickets"



That's all you see them do? look at the battleclinic fits. Shield tanked and sniper fit. Mini Malestrom.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#158 - 2013-01-08 23:40:19 UTC
4LeafClover wrote:
battleclinic fits


NM, this explains everything. Twisted

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#159 - 2013-01-08 23:40:59 UTC
The targeting ranges seem pretty low compared to what all the other modified ships have gotten. There are frigates that target twice as far as a hurricane for example.


Also, can you comment on the reasoning for the very minor changes in hp? Like taking 16 structure away from the cane seems just a strange thing to decide on.

I think the ferox is still subpar - you still dont snipe with medium rails, and the brutix outdoes it as a close range blaster platform.

Same for the myrm and prophecy - drones as a weapons platform have some serious problems, and even just tracking bonused guns would help both ships a lot.
Edward Pierce
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#160 - 2013-01-08 23:41:49 UTC
Isengrimus wrote:
I'm not good at maths (obviously) but still, don't you think less armor and PG does not seem to be a wise thing to do to a shitties BC in game already. :P


Most tier 2 BCs lost some HP across the board (Hurricane got a little shield), all tier 1 BCs gained some HP across the board. This was done to bring them closer to each other, its called Tiericide after all.

Quit your whining, its distracting from real concerns.