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Establishments in Winter 2011 Expansion, yes or no?

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Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#141 - 2011-10-07 06:07:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Renan Ruivo
Bane Necran wrote:
So, i guess it's time dilation for the winter expansion, then? Please that vocal minority who never shut up about lag in large fleet battles?

I imagine the majority of the playerbase who exist in hisec will be equally pleased.


High-sec players who live in high-sec for more than 2 years are clueless bears. Null-sec (and to an extent, wormhole space) is where the end-game content is at. Iteration in ANY MMO is about end-game content.

It is about damn time you lost your virginity already.

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#142 - 2011-10-07 06:10:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Bane Necran
Renan Ruivo wrote:
High-sec players who live in high-sec for more than 2 years are clueless bears. Null-sec (and to an extent, wormhole space) is where the end-game content is at. Iteration in ANY MMO is about end-game content.

It is about damn time you lost your virginity already.


Not only did i respond in advance to this mentality, but i'm also currently a 0.0 dweller, and have been before as well.

It's about time you left your simple little paradigm. The real world is big and complicated.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#143 - 2011-10-07 06:20:57 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:
Renan Ruivo wrote:
High-sec players who live in high-sec for more than 2 years are clueless bears. Null-sec (and to an extent, wormhole space) is where the end-game content is at. Iteration in ANY MMO is about end-game content.

It is about damn time you lost your virginity already.


Not only did i respond in advance to this mentality, but i'm also currently a 0.0 dweller, and have been before as well.

It's about time you left your simple little paradigm. The real world is big and complicated.


So care to explain to me in detail what you think was the catalyst for Hillmar's letter? You are going to tell me that "people whined" and therefore CCP listened?

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
Montevius Williams
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#144 - 2011-10-07 06:24:32 UTC
Flamespar wrote:
Tethys Atreides wrote:
Reality check:

CCP is a relatively small , independant studio. They overstepped their bounds and bit off more than they can chew. **** happens. I'm not white knighting, just stating the facts. I for one am interested in Incarna, and all that comes with it. I also expect it to be executed at the same high standard that FiS is.



Reality check:

Hilmar wrote:
Growing the company to 600 people

http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2672



HAHA You think 600 people makes a large company. Wow...

"The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB
Montevius Williams
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#145 - 2011-10-07 06:29:09 UTC
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Bane Necran wrote:
So, i guess it's time dilation for the winter expansion, then? Please that vocal minority who never shut up about lag in large fleet battles?

I imagine the majority of the playerbase who exist in hisec will be equally pleased.


High-sec players who live in high-sec for more than 2 years are clueless bears. Null-sec (and to an extent, wormhole space) is where the end-game content is at. Iteration in ANY MMO is about end-game content.

It is about damn time you lost your virginity already.


I thought EVE was a sandbox? You can call 0.0 "Endgame" but that would be a stretch.

Whats Endgame for a pirate?
Whats Endgame for a Market Tycoon?
Whats Endgame for an Industrialists?
Whats Endgame for a mission runner?
What's Engame for Miner?

If Im playing WoW, I know exactly what Endgame is.
If I'm playing EVE, Endgame is whatever YOU want it to be, thus the Beauty of the Sandbox that is EVE.

"The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB
KhaelaMensha Khaine
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#146 - 2011-10-07 06:31:37 UTC  |  Edited by: KhaelaMensha Khaine
Flamespar wrote:
Players have been incredibly patient with CCP, amazingly so considering how often expansions have not met the hype (PI anyone? )


Welcome to EVE Online - a game for life, not just Xmas. Those of us who love this game and the journey it's on are a patient lot who are willing to wait for new content as long as it's worth the wait when it arrives. Incarna wasn't - plain and simple - arguing about whether it WILL be once it's fully implemented is just speculation.

This is nothing new. EvE is (and probably always will be) a work in progress. CCP always "talk" about lots of stuff they want to add to the game but it always takes much longer than expected to arrive.

If the Incarna launch had been a success we wouldn't be seeing any of this refocusing but it wasn't and CCP has admitted as much, so continuing with their previous plans for the winter expansion would be pretty dumb.

Flamespar wrote:
You know an expansion with the rest of Incarna, all the propsed PVP and null sec changes, and the new nebula, would be pretty awesome.


No, it would be completely rubbish. Trying to include that much new content in a single expansion is a recipe for performance problems, bugs and incomplete gameplay. It's that approach that caused this mess in the first place.

As Hilmar said CCP became too ambitious on the back of their (well deserved) success. The sensible thing to do was to admit their mistake (which he did - aswell as taking full responsibility for it) and refocus yet again. This is bound to cause further disappointment amongst players but better to have that now than another major crisis in the future.

That's not flip-flopping. It's a pragmatic re-evaluation of what they can deliver. They need to provide new content ALONGSIDE major enhancements/fixes to existing content. This keeps people happy as there is something in each expansion for everyone. This has not been happening lately.

Tethys Atreides wrote:
Reality check:

CCP is a relatively small , independant studio. They overstepped their bounds and bit off more than they can chew. **** happens.


Spot on. Finally someone with a brain.

Seriously, it's like half you people didn't read what Hilmar wrote at all. Finally you get a letter direct from the CEO (the sort of communication which has been lacking for so long) and you choose to ignore it. For those of you that don't believe/trust him - WHY ARE YOU EVEN STILL HERE? Go play something else you hypocrites.

Nobody is going to be completely happy with this next expansion so don't expect too much. All the different interest groups want what they were promised but CCP can't make everyone happy in just 3 months. However, if it shows they have their priorities correct and are back to releasing kick-ass content then that's a good sign for the future.

TLDR - If your decision to play EvE, an 8 year old game which is still growing and changing (albeit at a glacial pace recently) is based entirely on what will be in the next expansion, then this is the wrong game for you.
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#147 - 2011-10-07 06:32:44 UTC
Renan Ruivo wrote:
So care to explain to me in detail what you think was the catalyst for Hillmar's letter? You are going to tell me that "people whined" and therefore CCP listened?


I never said anything about that. Where me and you differ is this theory of yours that every single person who is for and against this are all easily generalized about.

When a thread months ago asked what people thought the next expansion should be i responded that it should be something that justifies the existence of the QC. Now the CQ is going to be absolutely useless for god knows how long. That is, in a nutshell, my problem with this announcement.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#148 - 2011-10-07 06:35:01 UTC
Montevius Williams wrote:
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Bane Necran wrote:
So, i guess it's time dilation for the winter expansion, then? Please that vocal minority who never shut up about lag in large fleet battles?

I imagine the majority of the playerbase who exist in hisec will be equally pleased.


High-sec players who live in high-sec for more than 2 years are clueless bears. Null-sec (and to an extent, wormhole space) is where the end-game content is at. Iteration in ANY MMO is about end-game content.

It is about damn time you lost your virginity already.


I thought EVE was a sandbox? You can call 0.0 "Endgame" but that would be a stretch.

Whats Endgame for a pirate?
Whats Endgame for a Market Tycoon?
Whats Endgame for an Industrialists?
Whats Endgame for a mission runner?
What's Engame for Miner?

If Im playing WoW, I know exactly what Endgame is.
If I'm playing EVE, Endgame is whatever YOU want it to be, thus the Beauty of the Sandbox that is EVE.


I said end-game content.

Endgame content for a merket tycoon? I don't know.. selling super capital components with your own BPO's? Where will those be used? 0.0
For industrialists? Fabricating the above?
Endgame for a mission runner? NPC 0.0 missions.
Endgame for Miner? WH mining.
Endgame for a pirate? Killing ratting moms in 0.0 alone.

Those are the things from where you can progress no further in your chosen profession. Therefore, endgame.


Unless you plan to run level 4 missions in high-sec forever? Get enough money to buy a fully officer fit 30b worth paladin with max skills? Now what?


Endgame in EVE is about interacting with people. PVP, if you will. Because there is no end to PVP. PVP is where the true sandbox lies, where people take hold of their own destinies.

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
smoopmeister
Cause For Concern
#149 - 2011-10-07 06:39:07 UTC
Mystic5hadow wrote:
[quote=Alua Oresson]...
They should have just made their intention clear like so "Folks, we know you want FiS stuff, so let us just finish up what we're working on for WiS right now so we don't **** off people waiting for the WiS stuff we promised, then we'll get right to this FiS stuff you want, okay? Okay."

That would have made me perfectly happy.

TBH, more people want FiS fixes than WiS fluff, we need to see how it integrates for it to be worth the dev time we are essentially paying for and promised by subscribing.
They should be developing this alongside expansions we can use now, by all means test stuff on SiSi or the other test server but releasing a single CQ and calling it an expansion is unacceptable. When dust is almost ready to go, they can deploy what they have or make it the next expansion's focus, given it will be usable as they intended it by that time.

Why not forget about WiS, then you're surprised when it does come out followed immediately by disappointment. WiS is a cage inside the sandbox, don't get trapped in it before they finish coding it.
Tear Miner
Doomheim
#150 - 2011-10-07 06:39:38 UTC
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Montevius Williams wrote:
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Bane Necran wrote:
So, i guess it's time dilation for the winter expansion, then? Please that vocal minority who never shut up about lag in large fleet battles?

I imagine the majority of the playerbase who exist in hisec will be equally pleased.


High-sec players who live in high-sec for more than 2 years are clueless bears. Null-sec (and to an extent, wormhole space) is where the end-game content is at. Iteration in ANY MMO is about end-game content.

It is about damn time you lost your virginity already.


I thought EVE was a sandbox? You can call 0.0 "Endgame" but that would be a stretch.

Whats Endgame for a pirate?
Whats Endgame for a Market Tycoon?
Whats Endgame for an Industrialists?
Whats Endgame for a mission runner?
What's Engame for Miner?

If Im playing WoW, I know exactly what Endgame is.
If I'm playing EVE, Endgame is whatever YOU want it to be, thus the Beauty of the Sandbox that is EVE.


I said end-game content.

Endgame content for a merket tycoon? I don't know.. selling super capital components with your own BPO's? Where will those be used? 0.0
For industrialists? Fabricating the above?
Endgame for a mission runner? NPC 0.0 missions.
Endgame for Miner? WH mining.
Endgame for a pirate? Killing ratting moms in 0.0 alone.

Those are the things from where you can progress no further in your chosen profession. Therefore, endgame.


Unless you plan to run level 4 missions in high-sec forever? Get enough money to buy a fully officer fit 30b worth paladin with max skills? Now what?


Endgame in EVE is about interacting with people. PVP, if you will. Because there is no end to PVP. PVP is where the true sandbox lies, where people take hold of their own destinies.


Your posting confirms to me that all you do is cry and make tired arguments over and over again.

Stop. Posting.
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#151 - 2011-10-07 06:40:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Renan Ruivo
Bane Necran wrote:
Renan Ruivo wrote:
So care to explain to me in detail what you think was the catalyst for Hillmar's letter? You are going to tell me that "people whined" and therefore CCP listened?


I never said anything about that. Where me and you differ is this theory of yours that every single person who is for and against this are all easily generalized about.

When a thread months ago asked what people thought the next expansion should be i responded that it should be something that justifies the existence of the QC. Now the CQ is going to be absolutely useless for god knows how long. That is, in a nutshell, my problem with this announcement.



You see, the problem was releasing CQ in the first place. It wasn't ready, it is still not ready, and CCP probably realized that they could not finish it until the end of the year not even if they dedicated their full resources to it. Why do you think we still have no idea what estabilishments will do/look like? Even though these were supposedly still in development one week ago and suppoed to be released in winter?


And the god damned subscriptions dropped with incarna. You don't need to have me produce tangible proof to you right now. Just go to the login-screen at peak time and look for yourself at what i'm talking about.


Was incarna the sole cause? No. Incarna was but the last straw.

Tear Miner wrote:
Your posting confirms to me that all you do is cry and make tired arguments over and over again.

Stop. Posting.


Hehe, i am not crying. I am happy. I am trying show you people why you shouldn't be crying.

I am getting what me and pretty much the majority of EVE vets have been asking for god knows how long.

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#152 - 2011-10-07 06:41:08 UTC
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Endgame in EVE is about interacting with people. PVP, if you will. Because there is no end to PVP. PVP is where the true sandbox lies, where people take hold of their own destinies.


The gear grind in WoW is similarly endless, and comprises what they consider endgame. Similarly, collecting things in EVE is the endgame of a player named Entity.

Like he said before, you can't just dictate how other people play the game in a sandbox, and force them into what the endgame is for you, just like you can't say everyone who thinks a certain thing are all identical people.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#153 - 2011-10-07 06:43:53 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Endgame in EVE is about interacting with people. PVP, if you will. Because there is no end to PVP. PVP is where the true sandbox lies, where people take hold of their own destinies.


The gear grind in WoW is similarly endless, and comprises what they consider endgame. Similarly, collecting things in EVE is the endgame of a player named Entity.

Like he said before, you can't just dictate how other people play the game in a sandbox, and force them into what the endgame is for you, just like you can't say everyone who thinks a certain thing are all identical people.



Ok, i can agree with that.

Although i seem to have lost track of what your complaints are?

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#154 - 2011-10-07 06:44:52 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
(...)
1: Tie into and ENHANCE current PVP and PVE content. Preferably affecting not only things like manufacturing, working the market, and agent missions... but also provide tangible benefits to PVP activities (whether in planning, making treaties, gathering intel, etc.).


To put it blunty.. I am pissed off that pew-pewers always ***** and whine for EVEN MORE stuff for THEIR gameplay. They should go play WoT if they just want to blow somebody else's stuff forever with no other goal than keep blowing somebody else's stuff.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#155 - 2011-10-07 06:47:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Renan Ruivo
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
(...)
1: Tie into and ENHANCE current PVP and PVE content. Preferably affecting not only things like manufacturing, working the market, and agent missions... but also provide tangible benefits to PVP activities (whether in planning, making treaties, gathering intel, etc.).


To put it blunty.. I am pissed off that pew-pewers always ***** and whine for EVEN MORE stuff for THEIR gameplay. They should go play WoT if they just want to blow somebody else's stuff forever with no other goal than keep blowing somebody else's stuff.




Because unless you are one, you cannot fathom how neglected and poorly treated our gameplay has been for the past 3 years.

I don't run incursions, i don't play planetville, and i'm not alice in the wonderland. Its been years since i've seen proper content applied to my gameplay.


You say we want EVEN MORE stuff for our gameplay. Are you serious? We want more stuff, of course, like everyone do. But our complaints are over the LITTLE WE HAVE is in dire need of fixing for OVER THREE DAMNED YEARS.

THREE BLOODY YEARS of absolutely NOTHING. And those of you who live in high-sec?

Incursions? Mission Buff? C3 wormholes with static high-sec entrance with high-end ore? And we? Nothing was fixed, content we haven't asked for has been introduced (severely unballanced i might add), things we once had got nerfed while YOUR gameplay got BUFFED.

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
Aerilis
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#156 - 2011-10-07 06:51:04 UTC
The problem here is that you are one of the very small minority that has more than a passing interest in Incarna. CCP was slated to push forward Incarna features and introduce establishments in the winter expansion, but (fortunately) have reconsidered their priorities after months of very vocal complaints from their playerbase.

So now no, there will almost certainly not be establishments in the winter expansion (and good riddance).
Tarsas Phage
Sniggerdly
#157 - 2011-10-07 06:51:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarsas Phage
Raven Aldura wrote:

WIS and FIS are not mutually exclusive


They indeed are when you have a finite amount of development time and resources to put towards it.

For those of you who have been living under a rock, especially during the past year, it has boiled down to this:

Option A: Continue full-steam with WiS-related features which will take several seasons (expansions) to fully conceptualize, implement and mature at the cost of development time being devoted to anything other than WiS

Option B: Put Incarna in its current public form in stasis and focus resources on FiS again, while working out the concepts and basic implementation of WiS features in the background.

As of yesterday, CCP has chosen (B), to resounding applause from many.

Had (A) happened, you would likely see a slow trickle of partially implemented WiS features (Only 1 racial CQ, anyone?) over the course of who knows how many expansions, and it would be the equivalent of Chinnese Water Torture whether you're a WiS fan or not. The FiS camp would abandon the game even more, and then it would be the WiS gang's turn to take their place and start giving CCP ultimatums regarding half-finished features, underdeveloped ideas, or needed fixes.

I'm not being cynical, I'm being honest.

CCP has a wonderful opportunity now and they've taken it. Fix and develop several years' worth of FiS backlog, while doing the Right Thing regarding WiS and letting concepts and implentation mature instead of hurrying something out the door in drips and drabs.
Teamosil
Good Time Family Band Solution
#158 - 2011-10-07 06:55:12 UTC
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Endgame content for a merket tycoon? I don't know.. selling super capital components with your own BPO's? Where will those be used? 0.0
For industrialists? Fabricating the above?
Endgame for a mission runner? NPC 0.0 missions.
Endgame for Miner? WH mining.
Endgame for a pirate? Killing ratting moms in 0.0 alone.


You're just arbitrarily assuming that whatever happens where you hang out must be the end game... The end game for a market tycoon could be getting together $100b, and they could probably accomplish that most easily in hi sec. The end game for an industrialist could be cornering the market on a high volume item rather than a high value item. The end game for a mission runner could be soloing level 5 missions in space that is crawling with pirates, which means low sec. For a miner it could be coordinating a vast network of miners in hi sec. Etc.

You're right that some players get stuck in hi sec and can't really see that there is more game outside of the area they're comfortable with. That seems to have happened to you with sov null sec.
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#159 - 2011-10-07 06:58:14 UTC
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Ok, i can agree with that.

Although i seem to have lost track of what your complaints are?


I'm not really complaining about things so far, but i'm about to, as i also agree with you.

Renan Ruivo wrote:
You see, the problem was releasing CQ in the first place.


I'd agree with that, and i think Hilmar even admitted as much in his blog.

But i'd take it even further to cover all of Incarna. Something they've been teasing us with for many years now, and are showing themselves to be be incapable of providing in any reasonable timeframe. They should have just never hyped it in the first place, and dropped it on us all when it was finally ready, or very near ready, and i mean, ready, ready. Not constantly giving the impression they've done lots of work on it, then later admitting how far very behind they are. Some of us, even non hisec bears, have been really looking forward to it, and it's disheartening to have it yanked away over and over.

I await these new vague 'space combat' things, but they'll have to be pretty goddamned impressive for me to stick around until more of incarna is released, because that's what i'm truly waiting for. It's not that i hate flying in space, it's just that i've done lots of that already, and want something new.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#160 - 2011-10-07 07:00:51 UTC
Teamosil wrote:
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Endgame content for a merket tycoon? I don't know.. selling super capital components with your own BPO's? Where will those be used? 0.0
For industrialists? Fabricating the above?
Endgame for a mission runner? NPC 0.0 missions.
Endgame for Miner? WH mining.
Endgame for a pirate? Killing ratting moms in 0.0 alone.


You're just arbitrarily assuming that whatever happens where you hang out must be the end game... The end game for a market tycoon could be getting together $100b, and they could probably accomplish that most easily in hi sec. The end game for an industrialist could be cornering the market on a high volume item rather than a high value item. The end game for a mission runner could be soloing level 5 missions in space that is crawling with pirates, which means low sec. For a miner it could be coordinating a vast network of miners in hi sec. Etc.

You're right that some players get stuck in hi sec and can't really see that there is more game outside of the area they're comfortable with. That seems to have happened to you with sov null sec.


I'm not talking about people's ultimate goal in the game. I am talking about a tangible glass ceiling.

You can aim at getting 100b.. 110b.. 1 trillion.. thats fine and dandy.. all possible.

But if you aim at building supercap components.. and you achieve that goal. Now what? If you aim at completing NPC 0.0 missions, and you complete them all.. now what?

If i conquer all of 0.0 sov. Now what?

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.