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Establishments in Winter 2011 Expansion, yes or no?

First post First post
Author
Tristan North
The Scope
#121 - 2011-10-07 00:21:30 UTC
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Flamespar wrote:
Renan Ruivo wrote:

Sorry barbie maniacs, you just got pushed to the back of the line.


This is just a ******** thing to say.

Different players enjoy different activities in EVE. There is no point to dismissing their particular interest because you do not share it. Some players don't want Incarna, some do, some don't care, some want elements of both. Similaly some don't want to do planetary interaction, or mining, or pvp or PVE. We all have our favourite ways of playing the game, and I think it is one of EVE's strengths that we actually have all of these ways of interacting with the game.

Personally I have no problem with each group having their particular interests focussed on for a particular expansion. I just have a problem with the half arsed approach to satsifying their interests that has typified CCP for the last few expansion cycles.

I don't care about the content of the next expansion. I just want a polished set of features that actually - for once - meet our expectations.





http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2011/08/some-curves-arent.html

Incarna almost killed EVE. Simple as that.


Close minded customers like you almost killed EvE.

Flamespar
WarRavens
Imperium Eden
#122 - 2011-10-07 00:26:29 UTC
Personally I think we won't hear anything significant about it for about 12 months whilst they focus on FiS and restoring customer confidence.

Players have been incredibly patient with CCP, amazingly so considering how often expansions have not met the hype (PI anyone? )
Renan Ruivo
Hengetools Consumer Products S.A.
#123 - 2011-10-07 00:29:47 UTC
Tristan North wrote:
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Flamespar wrote:
Renan Ruivo wrote:

Sorry barbie maniacs, you just got pushed to the back of the line.


This is just a ******** thing to say.

Different players enjoy different activities in EVE. There is no point to dismissing their particular interest because you do not share it. Some players don't want Incarna, some do, some don't care, some want elements of both. Similaly some don't want to do planetary interaction, or mining, or pvp or PVE. We all have our favourite ways of playing the game, and I think it is one of EVE's strengths that we actually have all of these ways of interacting with the game.

Personally I have no problem with each group having their particular interests focussed on for a particular expansion. I just have a problem with the half arsed approach to satsifying their interests that has typified CCP for the last few expansion cycles.

I don't care about the content of the next expansion. I just want a polished set of features that actually - for once - meet our expectations.





http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2011/08/some-curves-arent.html

Incarna almost killed EVE. Simple as that.


Close minded customers like you almost killed EvE.



What about close-eyed customers?

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.

Oberine Noriepa
#124 - 2011-10-07 00:45:49 UTC
Renan Ruivo wrote:
http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2011/08/some-curves-arent.html

Incarna almost killed EVE. Simple as that.

Are you assuming that even a well developed implementation of Incarna in tandem with proper FiS support would kill the community? Because I'm pretty sure it wouldn't. CCP, so far as they say, have learned from their mistakes. Seeing as how Incarna's poor implementation promoted no growth whatsoever, it would be foolish to assume that they would repeat the same error.

Flamespar
WarRavens
Imperium Eden
#125 - 2011-10-07 00:53:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Flamespar
Oberine Noriepa wrote:
Renan Ruivo wrote:
http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2011/08/some-curves-arent.html

Incarna almost killed EVE. Simple as that.

Are you assuming that even a well developed implementation of Incarna in tandem with proper FiS support would kill the community? Because I'm pretty sure it wouldn't. CCP, so far as they say, have learned from their mistakes. Seeing as how Incarna's poor implementation promoted no growth whatsoever, it would be foolish to assume that they would repeat the same error.


I agree. And's it pretty lazy analysis to point the finger at Incarna and say it killed EVE, when if you bothred to remove your head from your arse before looking at that graph that it is obvious that the roots of EVE's decline in subscriber numbers began before Incarna's deployment, and is probably due to multiple factors.

Let's hope the decline in numbers doesn't continue despite the refocus on FiS. I think it will continue, as CCP has a lot of work ahead restoring faith and meeting their own hype before players start coming back.
Teamosil
Good Time Family Band Solution
#126 - 2011-10-07 01:09:37 UTC
My guess is that after releasing "walking in closets" the overwhelming dissatisfaction and even anger that brought down on their heads forced to take a fresh look at the whole Incarna plan and I suspect they came to the conclusion that as it was, it would just annoy people and that 95% of players would just opt to disable it. I'm guessing their plan was basically to just spread out the current things you can access in a station all over the inside of the station. Essentially the same approach as the CQ, but more spread out. So you'd need to walk down the hall to get to the market and agents would each be in different rooms and there would be a repair shop on the second floor and whatnot. The corporate offices were just going to be how you got to your corporate hanger. I doubt they had any clear ideas for anything significant and new that you could, or would want to, do in stations. I get how that might have sounded cool to them at first, I get that their marketing people probably went nuts about how that was the feature that would make them into the next WoW... But when you really get down to it, it's just a way to make the game a whole long more painful to use. The way people reacted to the CQ made it very clear how they would react to the even more painful variant they had planned, so now they're back to the drawing board. That's my guess anyways. Just speculation.
Renan Ruivo
Hengetools Consumer Products S.A.
#127 - 2011-10-07 01:47:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Renan Ruivo
Flamespar wrote:
Oberine Noriepa wrote:
Renan Ruivo wrote:
http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2011/08/some-curves-arent.html

Incarna almost killed EVE. Simple as that.

Are you assuming that even a well developed implementation of Incarna in tandem with proper FiS support would kill the community? Because I'm pretty sure it wouldn't. CCP, so far as they say, have learned from their mistakes. Seeing as how Incarna's poor implementation promoted no growth whatsoever, it would be foolish to assume that they would repeat the same error.


I agree. And's it pretty lazy analysis to point the finger at Incarna and say it killed EVE, when if you bothred to remove your head from your arse before looking at that graph that it is obvious that the roots of EVE's decline in subscriber numbers began before Incarna's deployment, and is probably due to multiple factors.

Let's hope the decline in numbers doesn't continue despite the refocus on FiS. I think it will continue, as CCP has a lot of work ahead restoring faith and meeting their own hype before players start coming back.


Let me rephrase then.

Focusing on Incarna almost killed EVE.


We were listening to Zulu telling us that incarna would be CCP focus for the foreseeable future, and that FiS wouldn't get any major attention for at least the next 3 to 5 years.


So let me say this again. There are thing that MUST be fixed/rebalanced/iterated with FiS before any proper attention can be given to WiS. CCP believes that IT IS NOT POSSIBLE for them to deliver any meaningfull FiS content this year if they also have to finish WiS and estabilishments.


So if they are SAYING that they CANNOT DO IT, then by all means let them do it their way. The LAST thing anyone wants is for CCP to bite more than they can chew once more. Which is what they did with Incarna, and what got us to this point.


And at any rate, and i'm not trying to scorn anyone, just look at the amount of people that are irked by this change in CCP's development plans, and the amount of people that are HAPPY.

Now go back and look at the amount of people that liked what CCP was doing regarding WiS, and the amount of people who were irked by it. Compare the numbers, and tell me with a straight face that what CCP is doing now is wrong as a company who wishes to retain the majority of the customers it has left, and wishes to nurture any hope of recovering those it lost.

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.

Di Mulle
#128 - 2011-10-07 01:49:58 UTC
Teamosil wrote:
So you'd need to walk down the hall to get to the market and agents would each be in different rooms and there would be a repair shop on the second floor and whatnot. The corporate offices were just going to be how you got to your corporate hanger. I doubt they had any clear ideas for anything significant and new that you could, or would want to, do in stations. I get how that might have sounded cool to them at first, I get that their marketing people probably went nuts about how that was the feature that would make them into the next WoW...


Then their marketing people should have been really mentally disabled...though nothing would surprise me anymore. But more naive part of me still thinks situation wasn't exactly 100% SO bad. But it slid there due to the tunnel vision, which was caused by technical problems and "awesome visions" without real substance.

<<Insert some waste of screen space here>>
Cherry Stripe
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#129 - 2011-10-07 02:17:14 UTC
Oberine Noriepa wrote:
On top of this, when are those new nebulae coming out?



This
Flamespar
WarRavens
Imperium Eden
#130 - 2011-10-07 03:02:14 UTC
You know an expansion with the rest of Incarna, all the propsed PVP and null sec changes, and the new nebula, would be pretty awesome.

It would even warrant it being called EVE: Reborn

Shame it's not going to happen for a very long time.

Tethys Atreides
The Audacity of Huge
#131 - 2011-10-07 03:35:29 UTC
Reality check:

CCP is a relatively small , independant studio. They overstepped their bounds and bit off more than they can chew. **** happens. I'm not white knighting, just stating the facts. I for one am interested in Incarna, and all that comes with it. I also expect it to be executed at the same high standard that FiS is.

Despite my cynical post history, I am quite impressed with the recent turn of events in regards to CCP senior leadership, and I am very hopeful that it will result in a better game for all of us. If that means waiting for a finished product a bit longer then so be it.


PS - Or maybe it's the wine (whine?) talking.

PPS - Also, I won't spend a red cent in the NEX store untill we get a multi-avatar environment (hint, hint).
Flamespar
WarRavens
Imperium Eden
#132 - 2011-10-07 03:47:48 UTC
Tethys Atreides wrote:
Reality check:

CCP is a relatively small , independant studio. They overstepped their bounds and bit off more than they can chew. **** happens. I'm not white knighting, just stating the facts. I for one am interested in Incarna, and all that comes with it. I also expect it to be executed at the same high standard that FiS is.



Reality check:

Hilmar wrote:
Growing the company to 600 people

http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2672
Tethys Atreides
The Audacity of Huge
#133 - 2011-10-07 03:56:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tethys Atreides
Vs. Sony, who can draw on a pool of 160,000 people...

Or Blizzard with 2,700.

Roll
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#134 - 2011-10-07 04:03:37 UTC
Oberine Noriepa wrote:
Are you assuming that even a well developed implementation of Incarna in tandem with proper FiS support would kill the community?

If they try and do it at the expense of the real game then yes it will kill the community. If they can manage to fix and enhance core gameplay and add Incarna to that then it might succeed.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.

Renan Ruivo
Hengetools Consumer Products S.A.
#135 - 2011-10-07 05:44:09 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Oberine Noriepa wrote:
Are you assuming that even a well developed implementation of Incarna in tandem with proper FiS support would kill the community?

If they try and do it at the expense of the real game then yes it will kill the community. If they can manage to fix and enhance core gameplay and add Incarna to that then it might succeed.



Yes.

And they said that they can't so i honestly don't see the point in this pointless thread with absolutely no point to be properly pointed out.

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.

Apollo-Moor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#136 - 2011-10-07 05:45:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Apollo-Moor
Raven Aldura wrote:
Afale II wrote:
You just **** off one part of the playerbase to please the other. This flip flopping won't work. FFS just one time finish the Project before you beginn another.


Well said. This should concern not just fans disappointed that WIS is pushed back, but all the people that are happy FIS is now priority have to wonder: For how long? How long until CCP flip flops back the other way without finishing FIS projects.


That's one thing all these folks who are talking about resubbing and being extra happy about more FiS stuff. I'm all for more stuff whether it'd be WiS or FiS, but the one thing I can't deal with is flip-flopping. They've come out and admitted they were bullshitting us all and that Incarna in its current state is fail. They tell us in so many words its been put on the back burner, now how long that will be lord only knows.

Now they say they are going to refocus on FiS and people jump for joy and reclaim their loyalty to CCP. Lol.. They just got done telling you how they've been outright stringing you along the last months and how they are gonna get serious again. Why be so quick to claim victory for FiS supporters? Have they given you anything yet? Did you already place the bitter CCP lies in your mental vault to give them complete forgiveness.

You'd be just as foolish as the WiS folks who are left with egg on their faces. When the Winter Expansion hits and people actually get the results then we can see just how appeased they'll be. They'll scream for more as to be expected..

Sadly at the state and age of EvE online and the ever evolving platform of gaming as a whole. I am sad to say I don't believe Incarna will ever be. Because every time they'll actually bring it up. It will be half-assed and/or trolled on by folks asking for more FiS and how Incarna is stupid even after they've gotten new toys.

By that time something newer and fresher will be out. Remember that EvE has maintained its player base by being in that unclaimed niche. If you truly believe that no other developers could pull off what EVE is about you're mistaken. It just takes one that is willing to implement something of their own "EvE design" and may the celestials be with CCP if they actually did it right..

The playerbase would plummet... Its just human nature

Tl;dr People want their cake and to eat it too..
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#137 - 2011-10-07 05:49:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
I'm sure this was a hard call, but probably the right decision at this point.

Yes, you are going to take flack from many because you put out "another unfinished feature", even though this is because you had to devote those resources to finishing "other unfinished features". Roll

A lot of comments have been made concerning the point that was made about the plan for Incarna content not being up to snuff, that no fleshed out concepts had been run past the CSM, and that getting the tech running to facilitate making WOD tick was more important than figuring out how to properly fit Incarna into EVE.

I'm going to assume that while actual design and coding work is devoted to FIS content and iteration this winter, the main work on Incarna (beyond releasing the rest of the CQ's) will center around optimizing the engine itself and forming a working outline for how to make avatar based game play be an entertaining enhancement to EVE as opposed a collection of things that can be done more easily from our current interface.

To be a success, Incarna needs to:

1: Tie into and ENHANCE current PVP and PVE content. Preferably affecting not only things like manufacturing, working the market, and agent missions... but also provide tangible benefits to PVP activities (whether in planning, making treaties, gathering intel, etc.).

2: Open completely new area's of game play that are engaging and fun, as well as make practical sense to do in your avatar instead of a pop up window. It must NOT focus on content that makes no practical sense to be avatar dependent.

3: Leverage the endless content that comes from player interaction instead of providing only static content that is exactly the same every time you do it.

This is a tall order, and will likely need to tie in with a large number of existing game area's as well as large number of completely new area's of game play. Basically, it is almost as staggeringly large a project as creating the EVE universe to begin with.

Personally I would establish some firm guidelines for Incarna content similar to what was done for developing null sec (and by extension further defining the other sec area's in EVE) before I do anything else.

Second I would make those guidelines available to the CSM and let them kick it around.

Third, I would then present those guidelines to the community in a blog to get not only general feedback but to harvest the inevitable flood of ideas that the community will generate that fit within those guidelines.

Then I would take the best of those idea's, combine them with your own and what you already have in the pipe, and create your game plan from that. Put out those broad strokes to gather some feedback and then apply the whip to the programmers liberally. Big smile

If you take this approach, you will find a huge portion of the player base will become heavily invested in the success of Incarna... which is a big win for us all.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Meeogi
Lone Star Privateers
#138 - 2011-10-07 05:52:41 UTC
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:
CCP Solomon wrote:
Sadly, the Establishments feature will not be coming in the winter expansion. We hear you guys loud and clear and realize that there is still strong support for a multiplayer, avatar based experience in EVE (we also hear those that don’t want it). However, we think you’ll agree that it has to be a compelling experience and there was a feeling amongst our people that the direction we were taking with the Establishments feature was… well, not that fun. Additionally, we wanted to ensure that our rendering technology was finely tuned to a point that would ensure all of your characters continued to look great while performing well.

It’s humbling to see the support in this thread for a multiplayer Incarna experience and we are still committed to providing it, as and when it’s ready. We want to take the time to do it right and ensure you guys get something that is both fun and involving. There are no promises about when this will happen, just rest assured that while you are enjoying your space based updates this winter, there will continue to be movement on this.



That is what I needed to hear. Accounts cancelled.




HAHA What a drama queen. Just stop while your ahead.
Renan Ruivo
Hengetools Consumer Products S.A.
#139 - 2011-10-07 05:56:32 UTC
Meeogi wrote:
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:
CCP Solomon wrote:
Sadly, the Establishments feature will not be coming in the winter expansion. We hear you guys loud and clear and realize that there is still strong support for a multiplayer, avatar based experience in EVE (we also hear those that don’t want it). However, we think you’ll agree that it has to be a compelling experience and there was a feeling amongst our people that the direction we were taking with the Establishments feature was… well, not that fun. Additionally, we wanted to ensure that our rendering technology was finely tuned to a point that would ensure all of your characters continued to look great while performing well.

It’s humbling to see the support in this thread for a multiplayer Incarna experience and we are still committed to providing it, as and when it’s ready. We want to take the time to do it right and ensure you guys get something that is both fun and involving. There are no promises about when this will happen, just rest assured that while you are enjoying your space based updates this winter, there will continue to be movement on this.



That is what I needed to hear. Accounts cancelled.




HAHA What a drama queen. Just stop while your ahead.


Funny story.. In-game i would be shooting a lot of people here.. but on this thread we are all on the same side lol.

In other words, complainers are either new people or high-sec bears and those who are happy about the changes are EVE vets who actually play the game.

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.

Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#140 - 2011-10-07 06:01:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Bane Necran
So, i guess it's time dilation for the winter expansion, then? Please that vocal minority who never shut up about lag in large fleet battles?

I imagine the majority of the playerbase who exist in hisec will be equally pleased.

Renan Ruivo wrote:
In other words, complainers are either new people or high-sec bears and those who are happy about the changes are EVE vets who actually play the game.


Generalizations, while fun, and a good way to limit the amount of things you have to consider, are often incorrect.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi