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Team Avatar and the future of our prototype

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Teinyhr
Ourumur
#1421 - 2013-09-09 17:30:23 UTC
handbanana wrote:
When you balance the cost to build the cash shop, the products, and the avatars to wear the goods vs. the revenue generated to date, I would guess CCP did not recoup 1% of its expenditures. Otherwise, we'd probably be seeing regular additions and iteration to the shop and WIS if either was so lucrative and contributed anything statistically relevant to CCPs bottom line.


There is nothing coming because WiS team doesn't exist anymore. They are terrified of players throwing a hissyfit again - it took them very careful consideration just to add a couple of clothing items to the FW LP stores, and even then people back then were flipping their **** - not realizing that stuff was already made a year ago and therefore did not take any dev time other than to add it to the store.

The biggest problem with NeX's profitability is that most clothes are utterly bland, dulled colors and generally very boring to look at. Nevertheless some people are buying stuff from there, otherwise there would be no stock in the apparel market.

And if you think avatar vanity items don't sell, you're dead wrong. Sleeve tattoos? Worth billions of ISK. Nefantar Thrasher? A few hundred million at best. Genolution implants? Half a billion, or a bit more. That tells you something how players value their avatar stuff even though they can't even parade them around anywhere but in character portraits. Well, those prices are in my corner of the galaxy at least, and checking the Jita market the tats are still valued way over the other stuff.

I'm guessing the virtual swag offer CCP has up now (that includes the CE pre-order bonuses) is selling mainly because people want sleeve tattoos. They're never going to fly the thrasher anyway and the Genolution implants are for the moment too costly to use in anything but the most carebearest of characters.

Basically, many people are very, very fond of their avatars and many seem to be quite happily playing "space barbie", even if they have to play it alone for the time being.
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#1422 - 2013-09-09 17:53:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalua Rui
handbanana wrote:
When you balance the cost to build the cash shop, the products, and the avatars to wear the goods vs. the revenue generated to date, I would guess CCP did not recoup 1% of its expenditures. Otherwise, we'd probably be seeing regular additions and iteration to the shop and WIS if either was so lucrative and contributed anything statistically relevant to CCPs bottom line.


Think again... the only reason why CCP changed their approach was the media backlash following the introduction of microtransactions, and the potential damage to the game it ensued.... I know, many people like to think otherwise, but that's exactly what happened... everything else: The unsub wave and quick response/apology from CCP was rooted in said, bad press (example).

...and "handbanana"? I'm neither "betting" not "boasting", I'm predicting... I know a thing or two about the gaming industry and I also have been a gamer for almost 20 years, I know an promising project when I see one... and Chris Roberts has revolutionized the genre (the whole market, for that matter) once already (Wind Commander series ring a bell?). It is not *somewhat funded", it smashed the original Kickstarter goal of 500.000, and is now at almost 19 mil... you know how much money CCP had when they started development of EVE? 2.6 mil! The release table also isn't 2-3 years, it's 2014 for the singleplayer campaign...

Also, you ever actually played JG? I played the original and it was a generic space shooter, it didn't do anything new or better then EVE or any other space combat game, same as JGE... that's why it failed. Only because something is heralded as an "EVE killer", doesn't mean it is one.

Finally: The shared social space I mentioned was an example for a starting point, from where more content/mechanics could be implemented. Roll Only if there comes more (customizable personal space etc.) the NeX store will ever really make sense...

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#1423 - 2013-09-09 17:55:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
http://youtu.be/b9kSMkp3juM?t=10m49s to support what I wrote. Progress made from last december (2010) to 2011 fanfest, look at it. It's the CQ development video.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1424 - 2013-09-09 18:24:42 UTC
Shalua Rui wrote:
Wind Commander series ring a bell?


I play that every time I eat Mexican food.

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise
Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1425 - 2013-09-09 18:25:37 UTC
Teinyhr wrote:
There is nothing coming because WiS team doesn't exist anymore. They are terrified of players throwing a hissyfit again


You're welcome.

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#1426 - 2013-09-09 19:59:29 UTC
handbanana wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
handbanana wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


Vanity items are the holy grail of ancillary sells. They don't break anything, make the players happy and provide lots of money.


Except when they don't provide lots of money. Case in point: Incarna

The question was: How does this (and/or meeting room) attract NEW subscribers? Your proposal fleeces existing players, and that's not going to go over too well, unless we're talking ship paint jobs and putting corp logos on things neither of which involve avatars.



If you do it wrong, not even gunpowder will catch fire. Roll

That doesn't changes that vanity items are ka-boom to game revenue.


Are they always, or just sometimes when done correctly and not wrong as you asserted?

Can you not answer the original question? I'll ask it one more time and further clarify it using smaller words and emphasis:

How does adding just a few vanity items and a meeting room now (or soon™) attract NEW subscribers?


Neither me nor Shalua Rui stated such. Why should I answer you questioning something I didn't asseverate?

So far I've stated that vanity items are a good source of revenue with a low cost of development. But in order to work, they need to be shown up to other players, and here is where social spaces come in.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
handbanana
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1427 - 2013-09-09 21:00:03 UTC  |  Edited by: handbanana
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
handbanana wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
handbanana wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


Vanity items are the holy grail of ancillary sells. They don't break anything, make the players happy and provide lots of money.


Except when they don't provide lots of money. Case in point: Incarna

The question was: How does this (and/or meeting room) attract NEW subscribers? Your proposal fleeces existing players, and that's not going to go over too well, unless we're talking ship paint jobs and putting corp logos on things neither of which involve avatars.



If you do it wrong, not even gunpowder will catch fire. Roll

That doesn't changes that vanity items are ka-boom to game revenue.


Are they always, or just sometimes when done correctly and not wrong as you asserted?

Can you not answer the original question? I'll ask it one more time and further clarify it using smaller words and emphasis:

How does adding just a few vanity items and a meeting room now (or soon™) attract NEW subscribers?


Neither me nor Shalua Rui stated such. Why should I answer you questioning something I didn't asseverate?

So far I've stated that vanity items are a good source of revenue with a low cost of development. But in order to work, they need to be shown up to other players, and here is where social spaces come in.


You haven't answered any of the questions I asked about stuff you have posted. You do selectively quote the stuff you want to argue however.

You've stated that vanity items are a good source of revenue, but you provide no corroboration in re: EVE.

You both (and others) continue to insist that CCP release something if it's only vanity items or a meeting room where you can congregate and be seen, while you regularly forecast the demise of EVE unless CCP complies. Since CCP is very unlikely to revisit any of this until it has figured out how to make avatar-based gameplay generate new subs and new revenue, I asked the question I did.

How does adding just a few vanity items and a meeting room now (or soon™) attract NEW subscribers?

“It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.”    -Jack Handy
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#1428 - 2013-09-09 22:00:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalua Rui
Ok, so you want an example for how a simple room could generate income and maybe even draw new players? Fine... the hangar module for Star Citizen (more or less one simple hall with a ship in it) has been downloaded by approx 234.000 people right now... to get access to it, each of them had to donate at least 5$, not counting the money they actually payed for the module itself... remember: That hangar is nothing more then one room with a ship... no gameplay, hardly any interaction, and it will stay like that for the next 6 months.

...so, and now tell me it would not work for EVE. All CCP would have to do is add a social space similar to that hangar and/or open up the existing CQs for other players, then proceed to add vanity items like room decorations (model ships, pictures, or even a bar), new clothing and accessories (expanding the current NeX shop), and go from there ...believe me, it would work and it would bring new players. Why? Cause the industry shows that stuff like that works right now... given, it has to be done right, not like the last time - with a vision for future things to come behind it - but it would work.

Right now, all EVE is to most gamers is: "Spreadsheets in Space"...

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1429 - 2013-09-10 00:48:21 UTC
Sadly it looks like Star Citizen is just going to be completely microtransaction driven. After monocles and designer space pants I'm not sure that's the best argument to make in favor of CCP wasting more time on WiS.

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise
Flamespar
WarRavens
#1430 - 2013-09-10 06:17:27 UTC
Shalua Rui wrote:
Ok, so you want an example for how a simple room could generate income and maybe even draw new players? Fine... the hangar module for Star Citizen (more or less one simple hall with a ship in it) has been downloaded by approx 234.000 people right now... to get access to it, each of them had to donate at least 5$, not counting the money they actually payed for the module itself... remember: That hangar is nothing more then one room with a ship... no gameplay, hardly any interaction, and it will stay like that for the next 6 months.

...so, and now tell me it would not work for EVE. All CCP would have to do is add a social space similar to that hangar and/or open up the existing CQs for other players, then proceed to add vanity items like room decorations (model ships, pictures, or even a bar), new clothing and accessories (expanding the current NeX shop), and go from there ...believe me, it would work and it would bring new players. Why? Cause the industry shows that stuff like that works right now... given, it has to be done right, not like the last time - with a vision for future things to come behind it - but it would work.

Right now, all EVE is to most gamers is: "Spreadsheets in Space"...


Yeah the amount of money gamers are spending on that unreleased game in ridiculous.

Especially since the first product they released is essentially a closet where only you can enjoy your purchase (sound familiar?)

I think the difference between EVE and Star Citizen is that they are committed to meaningful avatar game play and have a plan that they have publicity announced and are visibly starting to deliver on.

They also managed expectations better. They were honest about the first module being a buggy single player micro transaction display box, as opposed to CCP claiming that station were opening up with stuff to do.

All we have now is a prototype CCP refuses to talk about and some waffle about "dream with me".
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#1431 - 2013-09-10 06:19:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalua Rui
Rhes wrote:
Sadly it looks like Star Citizen is just going to be completely microtransaction driven. After monocles and designer space pants I'm not sure that's the best argument to make in favor of CCP wasting more time on WiS.


Oh, but it is... in a way... out of two reason:
1) The NeX shop is already there, so the outcry will not be the same as it was 2 years ago... especially if the new stuff is "better" then what we already got now.
2) The market is, as I already stated, a bit different today... the last couple of years have seen a rise in micro transaction based games, and people are much more willing to use services like that... if the conent it offers is interesting and fairly priced, of course. That's two things CCP would have to work on, because that has been done quite poorly, when NeX was first introduced.... also, it would have to be marketed right.

...that's quite few "buts". Blink

@ Flamespar: Exactly my point: A firm vision and clever marketing... two essential factors to make stuff like that work.

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Flamespar
WarRavens
#1432 - 2013-09-10 06:28:44 UTC
Shalua Rui wrote:
Rhes wrote:
Sadly it looks like Star Citizen is just going to be completely microtransaction driven. After monocles and designer space pants I'm not sure that's the best argument to make in favor of CCP wasting more time on WiS.


Oh, but it is... in a way... out of two reason:
1) The NeX shop is already there, so the outcry will not be the same as it was 2 years ago... especially if the new stuff is "better" then what we already got now.
2) The market is, as I already stated, a bit different today... the last couple of years have seen a rise in micro transaction based games, and people are much more willing to use services like that... if the conent it offers is interesting and fairly priced, of course. That's two things CCP would have to work on, because that has been done quite poorly, when NeX was first introduced.... also, it would have to be marketed right.

...that's quite few "buts". Blink

@ Flamespar: Exactly my point: A firm vision and clever marketing... two essential factors to make stuff like that work.


What's really funny about the NeX store. Is that despite all the rage about the cost of the monocle, CCP confirmed during a CSM meeting that it was the most popular product.
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#1433 - 2013-09-10 06:38:37 UTC
Flamespar wrote:
What's really funny about the NeX store. Is that despite all the rage about the cost of the monocle, CCP confirmed during a CSM meeting that it was the most popular product.


I know, right? As is said: This stuff WORKS! It just has to be done right... imagine if there would have been more stuff (vanity items to outfit your CQ with etc.) and it all would have been more reasonably priced.

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#1434 - 2013-09-10 07:00:48 UTC
Shalua Rui wrote:
Flamespar wrote:
What's really funny about the NeX store. Is that despite all the rage about the cost of the monocle, CCP confirmed during a CSM meeting that it was the most popular product.


I know, right? As is said: This stuff WORKS! It just has to be done right... imagine if there would have been more stuff (vanity items to outfit your CQ with etc.) and it all would have been more reasonably priced.


...and I could just show off to you my 5 pairs of shoes... Lol

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Maximilian Akora
It's just business.
#1435 - 2013-09-10 10:23:34 UTC
They should stop listening to whoever is giving them "advice" on the whole NEX store an WiS stuff. Because that person got it wrong when it was introduced and he's still getting it wrong now.

Let me put it in caps just so CCP folks might actually read it.

WE REVOLTED BECAUSE EVE ITSELF BACK THEN WAS IN A SORRY STATE AND YOUR TIME COULD/SHOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER SPENT ON GETTING THE GAMEPLAY UP TO A RESPECTABLE LEVEL. ALSO, SOME OF THE OPTIONS FELT LIKE OBVIOUS MONEY GRABS.

ONCE YOU GOT SOV AND POS WORKED OUT THERE'LL BE A PART OF YOUR CUSTOMER BASE WHO ACTUALLY WANT YOU TO WORK ON WiS WHILE THE OTHER PART WILL BE HAPPY WITH EVE ITSELF AND WON'T MIND!
Flamespar
WarRavens
#1436 - 2013-09-10 10:28:42 UTC
You do realize that people read capitalized words slower than lower case right?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1437 - 2013-09-10 10:31:23 UTC
Flamespar wrote:
You do realize that people read capitalized words slower than lower case right?

Gives them more time to sink in… P
Maximilian Akora
It's just business.
#1438 - 2013-09-10 10:32:10 UTC
Flamespar wrote:
You do realize that people read capitalized words slower than lower case right?


Are you saying that CCP DEVS are normal people? Have you SEEN them?
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#1439 - 2013-09-10 10:36:19 UTC
Maximilian Akora wrote:
Are you saying that CCP DEVS are normal people? Have you SEEN them?


To be fair... they look much more human these days then they did years ago... just saying. Blink

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#1440 - 2013-09-10 11:32:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Teinyhr
Maximilian Akora wrote:
...ONCE YOU GOT SOV AND POS WORKED OUT ...


This will never be "done" or "worked out", because some people will never be satisfied. Therefore it should not be held as a brake for WiS development, instead they could be worked on at the same time. You know, that should be possible, because WiS is largely needing graphic assets (and optimization and a handful of fixes) that Sov and Pos should not require as much if at all, as far as I've understood it POS/Sov people want redesigned mechanics. But I'm not sure because I don't own either.