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[Winter] New destroyers

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Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#1021 - 2012-11-09 04:38:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldensaver
Shiroh Yatamii wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Why do you assume there isn't? Maybe I've got a hurricane buddy shooting at the other hurricane, while the other hurricane is shooting at me to protect the interceptor.

My point stands.


No, your point really doesn't. Who in the hell brings a destroyer to fight BCs? If it truly is a fleet scenario, your little Cormorant won't be the primary by a longshot. This gives you ample time to snipe out the enemy fleet's frigates and the like. Yes, even if you're 100km away "plinking", most T1 frigs cannot mount a tank above 60 eHP/s, and your Cormorant's DPS WILL exceed that. T2 frigs might give you some trouble, but then your fleet-mates in larger ships will probably be keeping a close eye on any demonic tackle-fit dualrep Vengeances and the like.

The Cormorant, along with all other destroyers, is not "useless". They have a niche role. There is a difference. Learn it well and fill that niche role if you so want, but don't expect destroyers to be the big-bang-for-buck like battlecruisers currently are.

Yeah, I still see them flown to excellent effect. This upcoming buff will make them even nicer. I've got a friend who flies Cormorants against any other dessy and will usually win. I've flown them sometimes myself, though not to nearly as much success. I also enjoy flying the Coercer, which is a mean beast of a ship, and I see people fly Thrashers all the time. I also have encounters where my ass is handed to me by Catalysts.

I don't feel destroyers are useless at all... I just wish that CCP didn't think they had to be as slow as Combat Cruisers *grumble grumble*.

Zarnak Wulf wrote:


Uhm. Try the future one.

High:
150mm Rail II x 7
Malkuth Standard Launcher
Mid:
Limited MWD
SB II x2
Low:
MFS II x 2
Rigs:
Ancillary Current
Overclock Processor
Hybrid locus coordinator

83km + 8km falloff.


Future one isn't out yet. I linked the one I have used to some effect in this day and age. Or at least in the last couple months.

Also:
1% PG implant to fit
[NEW Cormorant, test copy 1]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script

150mm Railgun II, Spike S
150mm Railgun II, Spike S
150mm Railgun II, Spike S
150mm Railgun II, Spike S
150mm Railgun II, Spike S
150mm Railgun II, Spike S
150mm Railgun II, Spike S
[empty high slot]

Small Hybrid Locus Coordinator I
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I

154 DPS at 84+7.5

But it's not out yet, so I posted something I know works.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#1022 - 2012-11-09 11:58:49 UTC
Try it with a genolution set, 605 small hybrid damage implant, and a 905 surgical strike implant. I like to stack the deck.Twisted
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1023 - 2012-11-09 14:23:53 UTC
Stop putting spike in railguns and going "ohh look at this dps from that range"

Spike isn't a real ammo, its really ******* bad.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#1024 - 2012-11-09 15:00:08 UTC
It is fine for 40km+ on ships that have a 50% tracking bonus. And my posted fit also does 350ish DPS at 23km with faction AM. So it's all good.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#1025 - 2012-11-09 17:34:28 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Try it with a genolution set, 605 small hybrid damage implant, and a 905 surgical strike implant. I like to stack the deck.Twisted

Heh, after I lost my crystal pod, I can't really bring myself to spend so much on implants again. Or much at all. I'm fine with genolutions, because they're pretty cheap, and I'm fine with up to 3% PG/CPU implants, but I'm not going much beyond that.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#1026 - 2012-11-09 17:58:38 UTC
Looking at the range and damage on these, I am still hoping the new Amarr dessie (aka the Slow Pig) gets more tank to withstand the punishment it will take while its drones try to hurt things. While fitting some tank, there is next to no room to fit a DDA, so its base damage + ship bonus only on those drones, and I don't see the possibility for light drones to do half of 350ish dps at ANY range.

Praying for my drone boat love (yeah, always been a bit of a Pet Pimp lover in most games. Necromancers, Mage, Cabalist, etc).

~Z

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
androch
LitlCorp
#1027 - 2012-11-10 08:51:56 UTC
does nobody care that the artist keeps putting ugly looking parts that seem to serve no function on caldari ships?
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1028 - 2012-11-10 15:15:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
useless post deleted -Reaver Glitterstim

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#1029 - 2012-11-10 15:32:44 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

I want a 2MN Microwarpdrive that costs 25MW powergrid to fit and has 3 million newtons of thrust.

Please tell me you see what's wrong with this statement. I agree with the sentiment, but you phrased it wrong
I really don't. Please, enlighten me, but I think I got it right. I might agree to more powergrid, but remember it's gotta fit to a destroyer.

It's really just a nitpick, But MN stands for meganewton, which is 1 million newtons. You have in that sentence a 2mn MWD providing 3mn thrust.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1030 - 2012-11-10 15:38:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Goldensaver wrote:
It's really just a nitpick, But MN stands for meganewton, which is 1 million newtons. You have in that sentence a 2mn MWD providing 3mn thrust.
I'm aware of that. A 1MN prop module generates 1.5 million newtons of thrust. Check it's stats. This is because it's designed for a ~1 million kg ship and adds 0.5 million kg to said ship's mass. This means that if it is equipped to a ship that is exactly 1 million KG, running it will cause the ship to be 1.5 million KG and have 1.5 million newtons of thrust, causing its propulsion module to increase speed by exactly the amount listed in its attributes. It's effectively the same as giving the ship a 1 million newton prop module without increasing its mass, except that it causes the ship to lose agility.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#1031 - 2012-11-10 15:46:11 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
It's really just a nitpick, But MN stands for meganewton, which is 1 million newtons. You have in that sentence a 2mn MWD providing 3mn thrust.
I'm aware of that. A 1MN prop module generates 1.5 million newtons of thrust. Check it's stats. This is because it's designed for a ~1 million kg ship and adds 0.5 million kg to said ship's mass. This means that if it is equipped to a ship that is exactly 1 million KG, running it will cause the ship to be 1.5 million KG and have 1.5 million newtons of thrust, causing its propulsion module to increase speed by exactly the amount listed in its attributes. It's effectively the same as giving the ship a 1 million newton prop module without increasing its mass, except that it causes the ship to lose agility.


Ah. That makes sense then. Sorry about that. That never occurred to me. I just assumed it was either a typo or ignorance. My apologies.
Shiroh Yatamii
Alexylva Paradox
#1032 - 2012-11-10 16:30:30 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Looking at the range and damage on these, I am still hoping the new Amarr dessie (aka the Slow Pig) gets more tank to withstand the punishment it will take while its drones try to hurt things. While fitting some tank, there is next to no room to fit a DDA, so its base damage + ship bonus only on those drones, and I don't see the possibility for light drones to do half of 350ish dps at ANY range.

Praying for my drone boat love (yeah, always been a bit of a Pet Pimp lover in most games. Necromancers, Mage, Cabalist, etc).

~Z


I think the point is to squeeze them to death slowly with neuts and disable their tank altogether. Your low DPS will just strangle them to death, and you can laugh maniacally. Just like the Curse, but smaller!

I also love my drone boats <3
androch
LitlCorp
#1033 - 2012-11-11 11:19:40 UTC  |  Edited by: androch
i want to like the caldari destroyer i really do.. but those offset wings on the bottom... look so aweful on it look at the other 3 destroyers, nice uniform shape beautiful lines and detail (ill admit the amarrian one looks like a fat coercer) but they all still look nicer than the caldari destroyer
Koujjo Dian
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#1034 - 2012-11-11 12:35:46 UTC
Shiroh Yatamii wrote:


I think the point is to squeeze them to death slowly with neuts and disable their tank altogether. Your low DPS will just strangle them to death, and you can laugh maniacally. Just like the Curse, but smaller!

I also love my drone boats <3


Except you wont ever get close enough to any of the other destroyers to use those neuts. It will probably do well against most frigates (if any frigate will fight it) but all the other destroyers will just kill it from outside neut range.
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#1035 - 2012-11-11 14:25:37 UTC
androch wrote:
i want to like the caldari destroyer i really do.. but those offset wings on the bottom... look so aweful on it look at the other 3 destroyers, nice uniform shape beautiful lines and detail (ill admit the amarrian one looks like a fat coercer) but they all still look nicer than the caldari destroyer
That's a fairly narrow opinion. I think the caldari dessie looks awesome. The only one I have a complaint about is the amarr destroyer since it looks incredibly BORING. Concept art was way better.
Shiroh Yatamii
Alexylva Paradox
#1036 - 2012-11-11 14:37:05 UTC
Koujjo Dian wrote:


Except you wont ever get close enough to any of the other destroyers to use those neuts. It will probably do well against most frigates (if any frigate will fight it) but all the other destroyers will just kill it from outside neut range.


I do see that being a problem. The drone destroyers are at a slight disadvantage because the missile ones will get well over 60km light missile range with good skills, and meanwhile frigates will avoid these things (whereas the missile ones will just have such long reach that the frigate either stays and dies or warps off). The drone boats are looking more like fleet-friendly ships to me, rather than solo.

Now if you're defending something against raiding frigates, this might do the charm. Otherwise I expect some interesting PvE use for the most part; I know I'll give the Amarr and Gallente one a try for nullsec missions.
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#1037 - 2012-11-11 15:15:31 UTC
Yeah I feel the drone ships are going to get relagated to PvE, with salvage gear in the high and bonused drones.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#1038 - 2012-11-11 17:26:46 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
Yeah I feel the drone ships are going to get relagated to PvE, with salvage gear in the high and bonused drones.


This thought makes me cry a little inside. I hope adjustments are made, or I am very wrong, and in application its actually better than it is looking on paper.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
androch
LitlCorp
#1039 - 2012-11-11 20:31:21 UTC
please ccp hir a new artist... they make caldari ships look like crap
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1040 - 2012-11-11 20:55:56 UTC
I figure by this time it's a bit late to comment but I'll go ahead anyway.

If these are T1's there are issues.

Destroyers are the first "step up" ships from frigates that new players work with. A new T1 model will be looked at closely by newer players for use and these are far from balanced with respect to skills needed to use them decently.

For vet types, this isn't an issue. For newer players - it can and will be.

What I mean...

Amarr destroyer - 3 lasers, 3 launchers, up to 5 light drones. (3 weapon systems to train for use).

Gallente destoyer - 4 turrets, 5 light drones. (2 weapons systems to train for use)

Minmatar and Caldari - 1 weapon system to train for use - all launchers.

For the potential of drones to be "balanced", you are also looking at drones to 5 to field 5 light drones.

Again, for more long-term pilots, such details aren't a major issue but for T1 class pilots, they will be and, as such, the 2 armor tankers won't be considered all that worth while to use.

I suppose the easiest adjustment would be to make them T2 class ships and adjust appropriately. T2 ships - people expect to be required to deal with a lot of mixed skills and training. such small T1's? ...

Again, if adjusted to T2 class, where people could be expected to have much better skills, I don't see any major issues but the panning of ships due to how hard it would be to use them at T1 piloting skill-levels ...