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[Winter] New destroyers

First post
Author
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1001 - 2012-11-07 16:23:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Last time I checked, 75mm rails doing 150dps at 30km with spike is pretty damn good, especially when you can fit MWD, disruptor, and medium extender with two mag stabs. You can always switch to closer range ammo and get around 250 dps. That's fine with me.
Or you can use 150mm rails and do that DPS at 75km. Last time I checked, rail guns and spike ammo are for long range combat. 30km won't protect you from a hurricane's autocannons, and 150dps wouldn't break its tank if it fit 1 medium armor repairer. The hurricane has a huge advantage in damage output and tank, and it's got pretty excellent tracking too. The thing that would give a cormorant a chance against it is speed-either enough to outtrack it or enough to kite it. And if you don't even have the range to shoot at it while kiting, then what are you there for? I'd say 150dps at 35km is gimp. A long range destroyer should easily outrange a short range cruiser or battlecruiser. The very fact that the Cormorant can't fit a MSE and MWD together with 125mm rails without putting on a bunch of powergrid upgrades just says that ship needs a powergrid buff.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#1002 - 2012-11-07 19:34:36 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Last time I checked, 75mm rails doing 150dps at 30km with spike is pretty damn good, especially when you can fit MWD, disruptor, and medium extender with two mag stabs. You can always switch to closer range ammo and get around 250 dps. That's fine with me.
Or you can use 150mm rails and do that DPS at 75km. Last time I checked, rail guns and spike ammo are for long range combat. 30km won't protect you from a hurricane's autocannons, and 150dps wouldn't break its tank if it fit 1 medium armor repairer. The hurricane has a huge advantage in damage output and tank, and it's got pretty excellent tracking too. The thing that would give a cormorant a chance against it is speed-either enough to outtrack it or enough to kite it. And if you don't even have the range to shoot at it while kiting, then what are you there for? I'd say 150dps at 35km is gimp. A long range destroyer should easily outrange a short range cruiser or battlecruiser. The very fact that the Cormorant can't fit a MSE and MWD together with 125mm rails without putting on a bunch of powergrid upgrades just says that ship needs a powergrid buff.



...Wow, now you are facing off a destroyer and a BC?

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1003 - 2012-11-07 19:42:12 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
...Wow, now you are facing off a destroyer and a BC?
All ships have one pilot. If one ship has zero capability whatsoever for any advantages at all over another, then there's no reason to fly the one.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#1004 - 2012-11-07 19:54:53 UTC
In their most recent dev blog CCP indicated that the Tier 3 BC will be slowed down. All of the Tier 2 BC will be nerfed from 18 slots to 17. I wouldn't be surprised to see them slowed as well. The overall stated goal is to make them powerful but less versatile. I wouldn't bet the farm on a BC vs ? Argument right now.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#1005 - 2012-11-07 20:42:59 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Last time I checked, 75mm rails doing 150dps at 30km with spike is pretty damn good, especially when you can fit MWD, disruptor, and medium extender with two mag stabs. You can always switch to closer range ammo and get around 250 dps. That's fine with me.
Or you can use 150mm rails and do that DPS at 75km. Last time I checked, rail guns and spike ammo are for long range combat. 30km won't protect you from a hurricane's autocannons, and 150dps wouldn't break its tank if it fit 1 medium armor repairer. The hurricane has a huge advantage in damage output and tank, and it's got pretty excellent tracking too. The thing that would give a cormorant a chance against it is speed-either enough to outtrack it or enough to kite it. And if you don't even have the range to shoot at it while kiting, then what are you there for? I'd say 150dps at 35km is gimp. A long range destroyer should easily outrange a short range cruiser or battlecruiser. The very fact that the Cormorant can't fit a MSE and MWD together with 125mm rails without putting on a bunch of powergrid upgrades just says that ship needs a powergrid buff.


You left the realm of comparing apples to oranges several hundred thousand kilometers ago.

Now you're in the realm of comparing a specific apple to the abstract concept of "dog". Battlecruisers fulfill a wholly different role compared to destroyers. There is NO REASON that a Cormorant should have the stats to in a 1v1 fight take out a ******* BATTLECRUISER.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1006 - 2012-11-07 21:45:35 UTC
Aglais wrote:
There is NO REASON that a Cormorant should have the stats to in a 1v1 fight take out a ******* BATTLECRUISER.
It doesn't have to win in a 1v1, it just needs to have a reason to be flown at all.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Aglais
Ice-Storm
#1007 - 2012-11-08 00:44:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Aglais
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Aglais wrote:
There is NO REASON that a Cormorant should have the stats to in a 1v1 fight take out a ******* BATTLECRUISER.
It doesn't have to win in a 1v1, it just needs to have a reason to be flown at all.


Wait. Take precisely 5,214 steps back from your argument. Take a long and critical look at it.

Realize that Destroyers are specialized to provide defense to larger ships against frigates, and that the Hurricane (and battlecruisers in general) aremore mobile but less resilient DPS platforms for use against themselves, battleships and cruisers.

Why the hell are you comparing the Cormorant to the Hurricane in the first place to determine whether or not the Cormorant will have any point to be flown? This is STUPID. They do wholly different things! Not to mention the price difference. What are Cormorants going for these days, like 2.5mil ISK fully fit? Whereas Hurricanes are closer to 100mil, aren't they?

Further, you say the Cormorant has NO advantages whatsoever over the Hurricane. Going to bring up the fact that it's far less expensive and fits bonused SMALL GUNS, which will SHRED FRIGATES.

The Cormorant, Corax, and the rest of the Destroyer lineup will always have a reason to be flown over a Hurricane. You think there is a "best" in EVE. This is false. Tiericide is making sure there won't be, and instead, we have good ships across the board which are situationally better than others, but as a whole remain competitive and actually good.

Now if we're comparing the THRASHER to the Cormorant... Then we realize that turning the Cormorant into a Thrasher but using hybrids is just as stupid as your argument because hybrids and projectiles function differently; what works for the thrasher does NOT work for the Cormorant. It needs a 'buff', in the form of getting it's fourth medium slot back if that's not being reintroduced.

As for the issue of destroyers being slower than attack cruisers: Instead of nerfing attack cruiser speed, why not just boost that of destroyers? :\
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1008 - 2012-11-08 01:00:59 UTC
Sniper Corm, best corm.

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper

Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#1009 - 2012-11-08 01:19:56 UTC
Aglais:
Couple things I want to point out. It's hard to fit a dessy for under 10m these days, at least if you want to PvP in one. Also, I'm all for increasing the speed of destroyers. I think it's an alternative to nerf the speed of cruisers, but I'd rather avoid that because that's the reason we're having all these changes. Also because a faster destroyer means it'll be more capable of doing its job which is murdering frigates... and if they can all outrun you with ease, it's hard to do your job right.

Now back to the topic of discussion, I'd like to see the speed of all destroyers increased (up to the 2500 area with MWD's.) The fitting on the missile destroyers (perhaps the drones, but I don't know **** about them) needs to be increased, at least somewhat. I don't mean to ask for a large buff, simply a small increase so I don't have to gimp every fit I try and make with them. I've got a basic rocket fit with a meta shield extender and MWD (the only 2 things that aren't weapons that draw more than 1 PG) and I have to put 2 PG rigs on just to fit it. Not many other ships can't fit mid sized guns with a decent tank and need PG rigs. And the Minmatar dessy only has 3 more PG, so it's not like it has a large advantage at all, either.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1010 - 2012-11-08 12:21:35 UTC
Aglais wrote:
*wall of strawman arguments*
Lets all just take a few steps back here (you guys I mean, not me). You're putting a lot of words in my mouth. Firstly, a lot of you seem to think I was saying anything at all about destroyers attacking battlecruisers. You have it backwards. I was talking about destroyers BEING ATTACKED BY battlecruisers. My point was that 30km is not long enough for a long range kiter destroyer because that's less than a hurricane's range. And you all jumped to the conclusion that I'm talking about a cormorant trying to kill a hurricane. The cormorant is trying to kill the interceptor that is hiding next to the hurricane. Not a very good sniper if it can't shoot past the autocannons. That makes the ship useless in PVP.

And secondly, I said nothing about nerfing the speed of cruisers. I didn't even say what fix I'd propose for the speed difference between cruisers and destroyers. I simply stated that destroyers are slower than cruisers. You want my opinion on the matter? I want a 2MN Microwarpdrive that costs 25MW powergrid to fit and has 3 million newtons of thrust. But this isn't about my solution, it's about spotting the problem.

Thirdly, I didn't say that the Cormorant has no advantages over a Hurricane. I was making the point that even though it's a smaller ship, it does need to have a niche. And I'm not saying it doesn't. My actual concern was that the guy defending the 75mm autocannon fit he made actually thought it was a good fit. I was explaining to him that it has less PVP value than it would cost to build.

Finally, I'd like to point out that there are many reasons to compare destroyers to battlecruisers, but the biggest reason is that they fight on the same battlefield. You can't just fit to beat one kind of ship and ignore the others. You've got to defend yourself fromt he ships that think it's a good idea to attack you specifically. Don't just assume there won't be any hurricanes on the field.

And whoever said that I think there's a best in EVE--I think you got it backwards bro. Go read that paragraph you wrote again.
Aglais wrote:
The Cormorant, Corax, and the rest of the Destroyer lineup will always have a reason to be flown over a Hurricane. You think there is a "best" in EVE. This is false.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Kirluin
#1011 - 2012-11-08 15:18:57 UTC
Apologies if this has been already addressed, but is there any word on what happens to folks with destroyer/battlecruiser skills in progress at patch time? forum searches have not yielded a definitive answer.

I'm returning to the game after a long hiatus and missed the news on the skill revamp. I've now reorganized my training to prepare for Retribution, however it looks like i'll be about 17 days (out of 19) into BC V by december 4th (allowing for time to get the last couple of racial cruiser 3's I need. I will have to miss out on destroyer V)

ideally id get set to whatever percentage of bc V i've reached in each of the new race skills.
Shiroh Yatamii
Alexylva Paradox
#1012 - 2012-11-08 15:27:44 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
. I was talking about destroyers BEING ATTACKED BY battlecruisers. My point was that 30km is not long enough for a long range kiter destroyer because that's less than a hurricane's range. And you all jumped to the conclusion that I'm talking about a cormorant trying to kill a hurricane. The cormorant is trying to kill the interceptor that is hiding next to the hurricane. Not a very good sniper if it can't shoot past the autocannons. That makes the ship useless in PVP.



That's a terribly unrealistic scenario. Remember, destroyers were designed to escort larger ships and kill frigates. In your hypothetical scenario, why did you not include a BC of your own on your side?

Better yet, if you're being attacked by a BC you are in a kite-fit Cormorant, chances are you're faster than it. Just pull out of their longpoint range and warp off. "But I want to kill the interceptor!" Too bad, you're really expecting to win against a battlecruiser and kill his frigate buddy? Battlecruisers are designed to kill cruisers, and with that MWD running you have the signature radius of such a cruiser. The best thing you can do here is hope to lure the frigate away from the battlecruiser and kill it.

"Useless in PvP". Pfft, talk to all the people who fly destroyers in FW complexes and DED 2/10s and PvP in them.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1013 - 2012-11-08 15:31:16 UTC
Shiroh Yatamii wrote:
That's a terribly unrealistic scenario. Remember, destroyers were designed to escort larger ships and kill frigates. In your hypothetical scenario, why did you not include a BC of your own on your side?
Why do you assume there isn't? Maybe I've got a hurricane buddy shooting at the other hurricane, while the other hurricane is shooting at me to protect the interceptor.

My point stands.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#1014 - 2012-11-08 16:48:56 UTC
A properly fit Cormorant creates a 100km no fly zone for frigates. With the new corm I can also push close to 180 DPS at 83km. BC can not go into the two smallest plexes in FW. The Hurricane is receiving a nerf now as well as a future promised nerf down the road.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#1015 - 2012-11-08 18:13:28 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
A properly fit Cormorant creates a 100km no fly zone for frigates. With the new corm I can also push close to 180 DPS at 83km. BC can not go into the two smallest plexes in FW. The Hurricane is receiving a nerf now as well as a future promised nerf down the road.

Sorry to argue, but that's more of a 100km "I'mma plink you to death with the DPS of a kite fit Heron" zone. It's about a 50km no fly zone, but anything over that your damage tapers off more and more.

Kirluin wrote:
Apologies if this has been already addressed, but is there any word on what happens to folks with destroyer/battlecruiser skills in progress at patch time? forum searches have not yielded a definitive answer.

I'm returning to the game after a long hiatus and missed the news on the skill revamp. I've now reorganized my training to prepare for Retribution, however it looks like i'll be about 17 days (out of 19) into BC V by december 4th (allowing for time to get the last couple of racial cruiser 3's I need. I will have to miss out on destroyer V)

ideally id get set to whatever percentage of bc V i've reached in each of the new race skills.

I thought the most recent dev blog said they wouldn't be doing the skill changes until BC's were rebalanced... and they aren't being rebalanced this upcoming patch. Probably early next year.


Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

I want a 2MN Microwarpdrive that costs 25MW powergrid to fit and has 3 million newtons of thrust.

Please tell me you see what's wrong with this statement. I agree with the sentiment, but you phrased it wrong
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#1016 - 2012-11-08 23:08:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Zyella Stormborn
Goldensaver wrote:

I thought the most recent dev blog said they wouldn't be doing the skill changes until BC's were rebalanced... and they aren't being rebalanced this upcoming patch. Probably early next year.


http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73530

Of particular note, about 1/2 way down the blog:

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Reimbursement details:

Let us repeat again: if you could fly it before, you will be able to do so after the change. Technically it means if you are able to fly an Oracle by having Amarr Cruisers 3 and Battlecruisers 3, we will remove the Battlecruisers skill from your character and give you Amarr Battlecruisers at 3. If you had Battlecruisers at 3 and Caldari Cruisers 3 instead, you would not receive Amarr Battlecruisers but the Caldari Battlecruisers skill at 3 instead. The same principle work with the Destroyers skill.
With the way nested skill requirements work in EVE, it also means that you will still be able to fly an Apocalypse even if you don’t have the Amarr Battlecruiser skill trained at 4 after the change. It won’t matter as long as you have the Amarr Battleship skill at the proper level.

With this in mind, it becomes quite obvious to focus on training the Destroyers and Battlecruisers skills before the change to get the maximum return effect. We highly recommend you start doing so now.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly

Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1017 - 2012-11-08 23:35:45 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Sorry to argue, but that's more of a 100km "I'mma plink you to death with the DPS of a kite fit Heron" zone. It's about a 50km no fly zone, but anything over that your damage tapers off more and more.

A standard fit 2rep incursus have 150 dps, 180 with the drone.

Most frigates do even less.

Plink you said ?
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#1018 - 2012-11-09 01:25:28 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Sorry to argue, but that's more of a 100km "I'mma plink you to death with the DPS of a kite fit Heron" zone. It's about a 50km no fly zone, but anything over that your damage tapers off more and more.

A standard fit 2rep incursus have 150 dps, 180 with the drone.

Most frigates do even less.

Plink you said ?

[Cormorant, test]
Tracking Enhancer II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script

150mm Railgun II, Spike S
150mm Railgun II, Spike S
150mm Railgun II, Spike S
150mm Railgun II, Spike S
150mm Railgun II, Spike S
150mm Railgun II, Spike S
150mm Railgun II, Spike S
[empty high slot]

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I

105 dps with 95km optimal and 12km falloff. It's not terrible damage, but it's not something worth writing home about. I'll admit I exaggerated, but it's still not particularly exceptional, except for the range.
Shiroh Yatamii
Alexylva Paradox
#1019 - 2012-11-09 04:12:07 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Why do you assume there isn't? Maybe I've got a hurricane buddy shooting at the other hurricane, while the other hurricane is shooting at me to protect the interceptor.

My point stands.


No, your point really doesn't. Who in the hell brings a destroyer to fight BCs? If it truly is a fleet scenario, your little Cormorant won't be the primary by a longshot. This gives you ample time to snipe out the enemy fleet's frigates and the like. Yes, even if you're 100km away "plinking", most T1 frigs cannot mount a tank above 60 eHP/s, and your Cormorant's DPS WILL exceed that. T2 frigs might give you some trouble, but then your fleet-mates in larger ships will probably be keeping a close eye on any demonic tackle-fit dualrep Vengeances and the like.

The Cormorant, along with all other destroyers, is not "useless". They have a niche role. There is a difference. Learn it well and fill that niche role if you so want, but don't expect destroyers to be the big-bang-for-buck like battlecruisers currently are.
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#1020 - 2012-11-09 04:37:53 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Sorry to argue, but that's more of a 100km "I'mma plink you to death with the DPS of a kite fit Heron" zone. It's about a 50km no fly zone, but anything over that your damage tapers off more and more.

A standard fit 2rep incursus have 150 dps, 180 with the drone.

Most frigates do even less.

Plink you said ?

[Cormorant, test]
Tracking Enhancer II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script

150mm Railgun II, Spike S
150mm Railgun II, Spike S
150mm Railgun II, Spike S
150mm Railgun II, Spike S
150mm Railgun II, Spike S
150mm Railgun II, Spike S
150mm Railgun II, Spike S
[empty high slot]

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I

105 dps with 95km optimal and 12km falloff. It's not terrible damage, but it's not something worth writing home about. I'll admit I exaggerated, but it's still not particularly exceptional, except for the range.


Uhm. Try the future one.

High:
150mm Rail II x 7
Malkuth Standard Launcher
Mid:
Limited MWD
SB II x2
Low:
MFS II x 2
Rigs:
Ancillary Current
Overclock Processor
Hybrid locus coordinator

83km + 8km falloff.