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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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[Winter] New destroyers

First post
Author
Shiroh Yatamii
Alexylva Paradox
#1041 - 2012-11-11 20:57:52 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:


This thought makes me cry a little inside. I hope adjustments are made, or I am very wrong, and in application its actually better than it is looking on paper.


Well as I said before, these ships will feel right at home in larger fleets with a good balance of ships. The Amarr one in particular will be able to take down interceptors and EAFs such as the Keres with ease. thus defending their larger comrades against fast tackle ships. In addition, since it's a destroyer it's not very likely to be primary, and I can definitely see six to eight small neuts still giving plenty of pain to enemy battlecruisers' capacitors. In short it very much is a support boat that uses indirect means to achieve its ends. That's the point.

The Gallente one on the other hand will struggle a bit more, as it lacks a neut bonus and instead gets small hybrids; it seems more pegged into the role of anti-frigate support only, using its waves of drones and railguns to take out frigates from afar.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#1042 - 2012-11-12 01:47:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Zyella Stormborn
Shiroh Yatamii wrote:
Zyella Stormborn wrote:


This thought makes me cry a little inside. I hope adjustments are made, or I am very wrong, and in application its actually better than it is looking on paper.


Well as I said before, these ships will feel right at home in larger fleets with a good balance of ships. The Amarr one in particular will be able to take down interceptors and EAFs such as the Keres with ease. thus defending their larger comrades against fast tackle ships. In addition, since it's a destroyer it's not very likely to be primary, and I can definitely see six to eight small neuts still giving plenty of pain to enemy battlecruisers' capacitors. In short it very much is a support boat that uses indirect means to achieve its ends. That's the point.

The Gallente one on the other hand will struggle a bit more, as it lacks a neut bonus and instead gets small hybrids; it seems more pegged into the role of anti-frigate support only, using its waves of drones and railguns to take out frigates from afar.



Unfortunately, mainly what I pick up off of this is, 'can not stand alone'.

Vs interceptors, the drones will MWD to catch up, then slow down to fire, and the inty will fly right beyond them, causing them to go back into non combat mode MWD'ing again. With only 2 mid slots, this ship will not be able to tackle or web most likely, so will rely on others for trying to keep targets on the field. It also will not be able to put drone mods in mid slots that don't exist, and the limited tank space will limit the chance for DDA's. The drones as they stand currently will be limited on damage it does vs these BC's that suddenly came into the equation, and the Neuting power with small neuts will be much more limited vs ships that large. Vs frigs, and AF's, unless someone webs them, none of them will be insane enough to get close enough for neuts to reach. Vs cruisers, it may be a viable threat, if it can get close enough to use them before being blown to pieces (med weapons from cruisers will HURT vs dessies limited tank).

So it is going to be regulated to a tag along support ship that runs in and neuts a tackled target in gang vs gang warfare? With small neuts, by the time the cap is drained on targets large enough to use them on, the target will usually be dead (some exceptions granted, like Drake, and other high EHP tanks) already. Which will leave it as simply a drone boat that can only use 5 light drones. The Gallente becomes more useful in this situation, The caldari and Minmitar are both also better due to the fact that their missile systems will > the 5 light drones.

If this ship got a +drain AMOUNT as well as a +drain range on the neuts, it might have been a different story. But as it stands currently, I will most definitely own a couple, and I will be trying every fit and scenario I can to try and make it work / desired in groups, but I do not have faith that it will be a wanted ship in pvp. I hate coming across as a pessimist, but a "Mini Curse" this ship is not, due to slot layout and bonus limits.

~Z

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly

Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1043 - 2012-11-12 03:07:23 UTC
I keep looking at the new Amarr dessie in the context of Faction Warfare and I LOVE IT. What better ship to camp a warp in with than this sucker? Scram, damage, neuts, aaaand DEAD.

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper

Shiroh Yatamii
Alexylva Paradox
#1044 - 2012-11-12 03:54:03 UTC
That's what I was thinking Garr. My main is in FW and this ship would just be amazing for hanging out at the warp-in. Of course, for non-FW players you could still conceivably camp any point where you know the enemy is going to be forced within easy scram/web range. I'm thinking of 2/10 DED plexes in lowsec, in particular.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#1045 - 2012-11-12 04:46:53 UTC
If you two can, get on Test with a friend or 3 and test this theory out. See if / how it works. Would love to hear some feedback from experience in the cockpit.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly

Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1046 - 2012-11-12 12:24:57 UTC
Infact, drones destroyer will be murderous at close range, and won't (or marginaly will) be affected by TD, and drones make them extremely resistant to kiting. In fact, I expect no frigate to be able to kill one of them reliably. And if interceptors are the only ships able to kite them, I would not remove this from them ; poor interceptors don't retain too much after the T1 frigate rebalance.
Koujjo Dian
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#1047 - 2012-11-13 02:08:31 UTC
Tried a couple of different fits with the Dragoon against a Vengeance. First a neut / armor plate fit that just got slaughtered. Pretty much played out as expected. The neuts did nothing against the Vengeance's cap-less weapons and I really couldn't kite out of his rocket range. I expect the same will happen against an enemy with ACs.

The second fit I tried (against the same Vengeance) was a double rep fit with 5 nos. I couldn't fit 6 even by fitting meta 4 stuff where I could. This fight went much better. Eventually I died but I only have drone interfacing 4 and destroyer 4. With level 5 skills I probably would have won.

I could see myself flying the dual rep fit in FW although I would fear something slipping out of nos range and kiting me to death without being able to fuel my small reppers. Or possibly a high DPS ship just putting out way more damage than dual reps can keep up with before the drones could wittle them down. Only real complaint I have with the ship other than the two midslots, is it just seems too tight on fitting room.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#1048 - 2012-11-13 02:14:46 UTC
Thx Koujjo, appreciate that. It's turning out about how I expected, although I did not think about a dual rep fit (nice idea that).

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly

Goldensaver
Something Went Wrong
#1049 - 2012-11-13 02:41:31 UTC
Mocam wrote:
I figure by this time it's a bit late to comment but I'll go ahead anyway.

If these are T1's there are issues.

Destroyers are the first "step up" ships from frigates that new players work with. A new T1 model will be looked at closely by newer players for use and these are far from balanced with respect to skills needed to use them decently.

For vet types, this isn't an issue. For newer players - it can and will be.

What I mean...

Amarr destroyer - 3 lasers, 3 launchers, up to 5 light drones. (3 weapon systems to train for use).

Gallente destoyer - 4 turrets, 5 light drones. (2 weapons systems to train for use)

Minmatar and Caldari - 1 weapon system to train for use - all launchers.

For the potential of drones to be "balanced", you are also looking at drones to 5 to field 5 light drones.

Again, for more long-term pilots, such details aren't a major issue but for T1 class pilots, they will be and, as such, the 2 armor tankers won't be considered all that worth while to use.

I suppose the easiest adjustment would be to make them T2 class ships and adjust appropriately. T2 ships - people expect to be required to deal with a lot of mixed skills and training. such small T1's? ...

Again, if adjusted to T2 class, where people could be expected to have much better skills, I don't see any major issues but the panning of ships due to how hard it would be to use them at T1 piloting skill-levels ...


There are always the "Tier 1" destroyers for people who are newer to the game, you know. Those only require 1 weapon system. And the Caldari and Minmatar destoyers are probably a good thing for people to trained into the Condor for example, and *whoops*, the only next step YOU get is to Cruisers or expensive faction ships!

Oh, and the Amarr isn't a difficult one to train into, unlike what you're trying to imply. One weapon system to train for (drones), one skill to train on the side (energy emission systems, easy train), and if you feel you want the crappy weapons, one or 2 weapon systems of choice that don't even need to be trained up much (level 1 or 2 a handful of crappy support skills). Hell, I won't be surprised to see 6 neut versions of the Amarr destroyer going about. The only one I can see really needing good skills is the Gallente one.
Kara Corvinus
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1050 - 2012-11-13 03:17:52 UTC
woot! mini curse for the amarr :) although TD bonus would've been more fun ;)
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1051 - 2012-11-13 03:27:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Garr Earthbender
TD bonus woulda been more of the same. Glad it's different.

Koujjo Dian wrote:
Tried a couple of different fits with the Dragoon against a Vengeance. First a neut / armor plate fit that just got slaughtered. Pretty much played out as expected. The neuts did nothing against the Vengeance's cap-less weapons and I really couldn't kite out of his rocket range. I expect the same will happen against an enemy with ACs.

The second fit I tried (against the same Vengeance) was a double rep fit with 5 nos. I couldn't fit 6 even by fitting meta 4 stuff where I could. This fight went much better. Eventually I died but I only have drone interfacing 4 and destroyer 4. With level 5 skills I probably would have won.

I could see myself flying the dual rep fit in FW although I would fear something slipping out of nos range and kiting me to death without being able to fuel my small reppers. Or possibly a high DPS ship just putting out way more damage than dual reps can keep up with before the drones could wittle them down. Only real complaint I have with the ship other than the two midslots, is it just seems too tight on fitting room.



Can you post your fit on the dual rep setup please? I'm interested to see how that ship popped ya.

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper

Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1052 - 2012-11-13 11:26:09 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
[quote=Mocam] The only one I can see really needing good skills is the Gallente one.

As a gallente pilot, even currently, as soon as you want something bigger than a destroyer, you *need* drone skills anyway. Even most of gallente frigates profit from drone skills. The one drone on the incursus can make the difference, but for cruisers and higher, that's not even marginal.
Koujjo Dian
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#1053 - 2012-11-13 12:41:36 UTC
Garr Earthbender wrote:

Can you post your fit on the dual rep setup please? I'm interested to see how that ship popped ya.


If I remember right it was..........

5 x Small Diminishing Power System Drain I
empty high slot

Limited 1MN MWD I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Adaptive Nano Plating II
Damage Control II
2 x Small Armor Repairer II

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Small Nanobot Accelerator I
Aliventi
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry.
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#1054 - 2012-11-14 17:25:42 UTC
idk if this is the best place for this, nor do i know if I will ever get a response. However....

Why does the Corax (Caldari destroyer's name) have a kinetic missile damage bonus?
Let's take a look at the 4 main weapon systems:

  • Lasers only do EM and THM because they are essentially focusing light. It makes sense that EM and THM is the damage type lasers do.
  • Hybrids: afaik only does THM and KIN damage. but that makes sense because it is essentially a insanely hot plasma hitting you.
  • Projectiles: Does all types of damage. This makes sense because you can make bullets burst out light, explode, catch fire, actually hit the targets.
  • Missiles: All 4 damage types. Again with the projectiles you can make a missile do a lot of things.

I though Caldari was getting away from this Kenetic missiles damage bonus during the rebalancing. The kestrel lost the bonus. The Caracal lost the bonus. I had hopes the Drake would lose it also. I am so filled with joy because of the option of doing actual DPS with other damage types for the penalty of having to take 10 seconds to reload. But this kinetic bonus just pigeon holes caldari pilots to one predictable damage type.

IMO there is no good reason I can think of why a ship would even care what type of missile are loaded. All the ship does is fire the missile. It makes so much more sense for a ship to get an ROF bonus than a damage type bonus.

We have these wonderful flavors of missiles. I want choices. I want to use these other damage types. I want to adapt to situations like projectiles can. My Raven is awesome because I can adapt to to those changing situations. It feels great doing a useful damage type to a target. I am sure the Caracal and kestrel will have the same level of greatness.

My question is why is the bonus still popping up after other ships were just bonused away from it? It just doesn't make sense.
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
#1055 - 2012-11-14 20:33:25 UTC
Think of the "bonus to all damage types" as a specific role bonus, that only a few Caldari ships, specialized on adapting to different enemies, enjoy.
Not a standard Caldari thing.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1056 - 2012-11-14 23:29:28 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
But this kinetic bonus just pigeon holes caldari pilots to one predictable damage type.

It's not pigeonholing. You still have the choice, though you have to think about it : is it worthwhile to swap ammo ? Sometimes, the answer is yes. Compared to gallente or amarr, it is a HUGE advantage. Some ships are blessed with ROF bonus instead of kin damage, that's an even huger advantage.

And for minmatar, they don't have T2 ammo with selectable damage.

And if it's the reason which trouble you, consider that the missile guiding system on the ship is specifically geared toward kinetic variation of the missiles. It's scifi, everything can make sense if you find a reason for it.

I don't think we need more ships with selectable damage.
Luscius Uta
#1057 - 2012-11-18 23:03:40 UTC
I don't like the new destroyer names (assuming they are final), they don't follow racial naming theme and don't seem to have singificant meaning, at least not to most people (as opposed to tier 3 BC names which were very good). Especially The Dragoon...Congregator would be much better name for a drone boat and would fit with standard religious theme of Amarr ships.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.

CaptainFalcon07
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#1058 - 2012-11-18 23:20:45 UTC
The issue I see with the Dragoon is that for small frigate fights, it the small nos being effective counter against the neuting. The nos allows the frigate to suck enough cap to keep his modules running.

More dps imo is better than the neuts.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#1059 - 2012-11-19 00:07:21 UTC
CaptainFalcon07 wrote:
The issue I see with the Dragoon is that for small frigate fights, it the small nos being effective counter against the neuting. The nos allows the frigate to suck enough cap to keep his modules running.

More dps imo is better than the neuts.


^

Or at the very least give a /per level neuting amount bonus also.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly

Sheynan
Lighting the blight
#1060 - 2012-11-19 01:17:24 UTC
I tried the Dragoon on Buckingham this weekend and actually got good results against a variety of targets. I was able to kill an active tank Hawk though it had a vamp fitted and even got good results against a Thorax (=still dying but only after considerable time, might have killed him, if I had focused his drones down).
Furthermore I was easily able to kill a kiting Talwar with just small drones. They look weird when they zap to the target, stop to fire a shot and then zap again, but they still work pretty reliably.


The thing with Buckingham is though that I had to discard a lot of fights because the opponents were either terribly fitted or unreasonably fitted (as in flying Cambions and officer fits).
So I urge everyone in this thread to go to Buckingham and try these ships out, the more results we can get, the better.