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New dev blog: Team Security - Banning Bad Guys and also Bad Guys

First post First post
Author
Endeavour Starfleet
#341 - 2012-03-11 19:30:04 UTC
Inovy Dacella wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I got a question as well. Isn't "1000 to 2000 bans" a bit too little? Considering people usually have 2 or more accounts that'd be like 500 unique botting people. Doesn't it sound a bit too low? Considering that in some systems there are 10+ bots?


This highlights the perspective issue. We banned 10 market bots and the market people in this thread stated they noticed a tremendous difference...

We build our system to deal with certain things and we can show results based on that. We can't give overall perspective (nor can any other company out there). If I could answer this question then I'd know how many bots there were and I'd ban them all.


If players claim they can detect bots so easily, is it possible to make bot detecting a part of the game? Perhaps with some knid of bot detection software we could identify and report them to Concord, which in return could verify and issue a kill permit on the bot. Then we can pod kill them, loot them and collect the reward.


So you just want killmail and don't really care about the needed action is banning right?

And autodection rarely works. If botters learn how it works they will go 99 percent before ban and still RMT and destroy the market.

Report bot is the best tool for the players right now. The players notice the signs over time on the harder to find ones.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#342 - 2012-03-11 21:45:59 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
#4 Finally through the above try to encourage blues to report blue bots. This will help catch more botters.



This is just impossible since in major alliances there's a non written rule about bots: they're not CCP's police, it's not up to them to do their job and you could get yourself and your corp in trouble if you are known or suspected for bot reporting blues.

I guess this makes it pretty clear how the problem should be handled.



Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#343 - 2012-03-11 22:51:45 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
#4 Finally through the above try to encourage blues to report blue bots. This will help catch more botters.



This is just impossible since in major alliances there's a non written rule about bots: they're not CCP's police, it's not up to them to do their job and you could get yourself and your corp in trouble if you are known or suspected for bot reporting blues.


I get that it's "not their job" but it's rather telling that you can get in trouble for reporting bots in these alliances, but not for botting itself. Doesn't surprise me though, my Darkfall clan disintegrated over similar issues. Just are rather sad state of affairs is all.
ps3ud0nym
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society
United Federation of Conifers
#344 - 2012-03-11 23:12:02 UTC
Xorv wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
#4 Finally through the above try to encourage blues to report blue bots. This will help catch more botters.



This is just impossible since in major alliances there's a non written rule about bots: they're not CCP's police, it's not up to them to do their job and you could get yourself and your corp in trouble if you are known or suspected for bot reporting blues.


I get that it's "not their job" but it's rather telling that you can get in trouble for reporting bots in these alliances, but not for botting itself. Doesn't surprise me though, my Darkfall clan disintegrated over similar issues. Just are rather sad state of affairs is all.


What, exactly, do you think is "telling"? Are you making a moral argument about a business solution? If so, you are a giant ****** who doesn't understand the realities of this game and is operating in a moral fantasy land that simply doesn't exist in EVE or in the real world as well.

What is telling is that allowing botting is pretty much something ANY non-tech holding alliance must allow or put themselves at a massive disadvantage due to their anaemic income potential without the influx of isk from botting taxes. If you don't you allow your enemies to gain an advantage over you that you simply CAN NOT match. You allow botters or you cut your own throat, live in highsec and have little to no impact on the game at all. The big nulsec entities don't encourage botting, but they have little choice but to allow it. The rules against reporting blues are simply ensuring loyalty. If you are more interested in reporting a botter, rather than flying with them in fleets and keeping your space, they you can **** right off and go back to running lvl4s in highsec.
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#345 - 2012-03-12 01:30:01 UTC
ps3ud0nym wrote:

What is telling is that allowing botting is pretty much something ANY non-tech holding alliance must allow or put themselves at a massive disadvantage due to their anaemic income potential without the influx of isk from botting taxes. If you don't you allow your enemies to gain an advantage over you that you simply CAN NOT match. You allow botters or you cut your own throat, live in highsec and have little to no impact on the game at all. The big nulsec entities don't encourage botting, but they have little choice but to allow it. The rules against reporting blues are simply ensuring loyalty. If you are more interested in reporting a botter, rather than flying with them in fleets and keeping your space, they you can **** right off and go back to running lvl4s in highsec.


Even though you set out to flame me I sincerely thank you for your post. Both it's content and your accompanying attitude needs to be seen by CCP. It's the same combination that's sunk many a Sandbox MMO where bad game design meets a competitive gaming culture that think it's perfectly fine to cheat.

Then again hopefully CCP Sreegs is right and they will clear up the botting problem. So your alliance won't have to worry about blues reporting your bots as they will already have been flagged and banned alongside those of your competition that you use to justify your own cheating.
ps3ud0nym
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society
United Federation of Conifers
#346 - 2012-03-12 01:55:26 UTC  |  Edited by: ps3ud0nym
Xorv wrote:
ps3ud0nym wrote:

What is telling is that allowing botting is pretty much something ANY non-tech holding alliance must allow or put themselves at a massive disadvantage due to their anaemic income potential without the influx of isk from botting taxes. If you don't you allow your enemies to gain an advantage over you that you simply CAN NOT match. You allow botters or you cut your own throat, live in highsec and have little to no impact on the game at all. The big nulsec entities don't encourage botting, but they have little choice but to allow it. The rules against reporting blues are simply ensuring loyalty. If you are more interested in reporting a botter, rather than flying with them in fleets and keeping your space, they you can **** right off and go back to running lvl4s in highsec.


Even though you set out to flame me I sincerely thank you for your post. Both it's content and your accompanying attitude needs to be seen by CCP. It's the same combination that's sunk many a Sandbox MMO where bad game design meets a competitive gaming culture that think it's perfectly fine to cheat.

Then again hopefully CCP Sreegs is right and they will clear up the botting problem. So your alliance won't have to worry about blues reporting your bots as they will already have been flagged and banned alongside those of your competition that you use to justify your own cheating.


You mistake my acceptance of a reality of the game as approval for the methods we are discussing. To be clear, I have no issue with botting per se (I prefer to call it automation), what I object to is an uneven playing field. I have no problem with automation commonly called "bots" as long as EVERYONE has access to them. I actually would encourage more automation of boring activities in the game using internal tools and scripting languages which would allow CCP to control exactly what and to what extent activities could be automated.

The real problem isn't that "Bots are ruining the game".. that is a nul statement with no meaning. It is that botting allows an advantage to those who use bots which upsets the level playing field that EVE is trying to achieve. Alliances allow botting simply because it evens the playing field against their enemies, who DO use bots. Any other course of action is suicide. Giving the enemy a massive advantage because you have moral issues with what you have to do to remain competitive is stupid. You do what you have to do. We have a blanket ban on leadership botting and anyone caught doing it will have themselves and their corp removed from the Alliance. Again, this has NOTHING to do with how we feel about botting, it is simply because we can't risk someone in our leadership being hit with a 14 day ban and leaving us high and dry.

I would be over the moon with happiness if Darius (Screegs) manages to fix botting, or at least reduces it to manageable levels. It would mean a level playing field, but until then I will continue to allow botting. As for the "Reporting Blues".. it is hard enough to hold and keep sov without dealing with botting drama. If your first loyalty isn't to the Alliance and your blues, then we don't need or want you as all you would be bringing to the alliance is more drama and fall-out for leadership to deal with. We don't need such blues.
Jovius Marginus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#347 - 2012-03-12 10:14:20 UTC
Here's an idea. How about some retribution evestyle before they were banned. Lets say that for a period of 24hours before the ban goes through, all chars on the acount are killable in highsec and a nice flashy red. This will give the bonus of us being able get some retribution eve style, they also have the added punishment of losing assets.
Gibbo3771
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#348 - 2012-03-12 19:15:00 UTC
Pointless, doing it all wrong.

Rather than using bots to fatten up your wallets JUST BAN THEM AND KEEP THEM BANNED.

Honestly, if you have sufficient evidence someone is botting, WHY THE FUK WOULD YOU TEMP BAD THEM.

Once a cheater, always a cheater.

A man will cheat on his wife once and do it again with less hesitance.
Once you type in that GTA San Andreas cheat code, you wont stop doing it every new game you start.
People caught using flyhacks on my Minecraft server = instant perm ban, IP, not username.

Either get the message across or keep failing.

Do it right and ban the fukers perm if you have sufficient evidence.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#349 - 2012-03-13 01:55:11 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Xorv wrote:


Thanks for the reply Sreegs, your efforts in dealing with botters and communicating with the EVE community here is genuinely appreciated. Still very underwhelmed by the punishment , 14 days is barely a slap on the wrist for someone who has gone out of their way to get a third party program with the specific intent to cheat in the game.

While it is understood you did not respond to my specific suggestions, and I appreciate why,. I will say this, EVE needs holistic treatment that addresses the disease not merely treating the symptoms, and that can only be done at the design level. A lot of us are hoping that Inferno moves in that direction and really delivers.


Not directly at you but since this is a common refrain, 14 days works. It simply does. You may not like that it works but it does and we'll show you the numbers that back that up. In addition there's some other fun things that are happening like that character lock, as well as something fresh I'll announce once it's ready.



I have the perfect punishment.

Take away ship spinning privileges from the botting accounts. They only get the CQ.


Bear

Where I am.

Bump Tremor
Writing Memoirs
#350 - 2012-03-13 11:49:14 UTC
GOOD DEAL - SMACK 'EM HARD AND SMACK 'EM EARLY!!

How about spicing up the time bans with a little fine to help them lose some of that cheated for ISK? Forget how much they have hidden in other accounts, send them into the red with a billion isk fine per cheating instance. Sieze property to satisfy the fine, set a 50% tax on all future earnings to pay for the fines. Make every chuckle they had about "getting over on the rest of us" cost them a huge amount per chuckle. Don't let them credit card their way out of the hole with plexes.

Crash down on the turd I heard in the computer store a couple of months ago bragging about making 300 - 400 USD a month off of Eve. Strange, he wouldn't tell me his toon's name, but his carseat was sticky when he finally left and sat down in a bucket seat full soda that slipped out of my hand when I was walking by his car. Damn, and that was the last Mountain Dew the store had!

Never let up on them!!!
Bump Tremor
Writing Memoirs
#351 - 2012-03-13 12:02:46 UTC
ps3ud0nym wrote:
[quote=Xorv][quote=ps3ud0nym]
I would be over the moon with happiness if Darius (Screegs) manages to fix botting, or at least reduces it to manageable levels. It would mean a level playing field, but until then I will continue to allow botting. .



Here is an account to ban! At least dig into every account in his corp/alliance and root out the cheaters he encourages.

Just because others are cheating and getting an advantage on you is not an excuse to cheat - it is admitting that you are too weak to stand for what is right and help bring them to justice. If you have to cheat to survive in a game - what have you won and how can you see your accomplishments with any pride. You should feel shame instead of vindication.
Abyss Azizora
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#352 - 2012-03-13 16:17:28 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Abyss Azizora wrote:
Ballamann wrote:
yeh but why is it possible for me to detect bots by flying though 0.0 and using dotlan?
Why is that not possible for the ccp guys?
because every bot brings money every month like every other acc.
-> They are not interested in banning somebody? they just do it to pour oil on troubled waters.
and question ur selv why they do it just 2 times a year and everytime in front of the fanfest!

greetings


Pretty much agree with this. I see eve bot banning as more of a promotional thing than a concerned effort. I would LOVE to be proven wrong, but I still think CCP only bans a few rather than the masses in order to keep them paying.

I know finding every bot is impossible, but when I can and often do point out/report a dozen+ bots a day (And a week later they are still there.) while playing for only a few hours, and while in the process of doing other things, I damn well know a dedicated development team should be banning nearly 500 bots a day, every day. (They would come back with new accounts every day from botted PLEX, so that's sustainable numbers.)

I don't necessarily blame the people in the development team, more the suits in charge, that see bots as people paying to ruin the game, but also filling CCP's wallet.


I am just going to say that in my opinion you know very little of how complex the botting situation is so please stop posting libel about CCP.

BTW. One of the main goals needs to be to "scare" the botters more than anything. Many run their bots full bore and more news of bot bannings will get them to start making their bots less delectable by changing their behavior. This causes a massive drop in output so many being forced to do that or reported or banned WILL help EVE.

#1 Get rid of the easy to find empire bots.
#2 Get rid of the easy to find null and WH bots.
#3 Try to find some of the harder yet bigger to find bot networks that are involved with RMT and ban them. This generates news and scares botters.
#4 Finally through the above try to encourage blues to report blue bots. This will help catch more botters.


While I fully admit I am not in any way in charge of banning bots, nor have I ever been in any game. In my opinion YOU have no idea how simple it is to ban bots in bulk. I "personally" report a large number every day casually playing. Most arn't hard to detect, they are all huddled up next to an orca, they almost always have "reject all convos" enabled, they sit out there for 18-23 hours on end, forever.

Let's say all I did was go after bots that fit this exact description, I could personally ban over a 100 a day just going from system to system for about 6 hours a day. (A bit of a estimation, but I feel it's fairly accurate.) Now a developer that works a full day doing just this, has access to teleport type commands, and can bypass convo blocks/send popup warnings etc... should be putting my numbers to shame.

If they really wanted to ban bots, 90% of bots would be gone in a month tops, they also wouldn't be giving this moronic temp bans for botting, it'd just be an outright perma-ban. And if CCP are somehow having an issue with this, hire me, and I will personally take care of almost all the bots in a month. I wouldn't make all these claims unless I could do the damn thing myself, I'm willing to backup my words with action if CCP can't do it.

Lastly, one thing I don't get... CCP could make a small fortune banning the bots rather than keeping them around. each one banned is a new account they have to make, and most bots use PLEX to make new ones. So they make $20 for each one banned, and even more if you nail the ones holding the bulk PLEX. But I guess they are worried the bots will move on or something instead of buying more PLEX.
ps3ud0nym
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society
United Federation of Conifers
#353 - 2012-03-13 16:49:08 UTC
Bump Tremor wrote:
ps3ud0nym wrote:
[quote=Xorv][quote=ps3ud0nym]
I would be over the moon with happiness if Darius (Screegs) manages to fix botting, or at least reduces it to manageable levels. It would mean a level playing field, but until then I will continue to allow botting. .



Here is an account to ban! At least dig into every account in his corp/alliance and root out the cheaters he encourages.

Just because others are cheating and getting an advantage on you is not an excuse to cheat - it is admitting that you are too weak to stand for what is right and help bring them to justice. If you have to cheat to survive in a game - what have you won and how can you see your accomplishments with any pride. You should feel shame instead of vindication.


Wow.. thank you for your response. You are an excellent example of someone who appears to be rather mentally unstable and should likely quit EVE and seek medical assistance. From your other posts in this thread, it appears that you take the happenings in a Video Game so seriously that you are willing to commit illegal acts (Vandalism) in the real world because of someones actions in a video game.

I am not kidding, this is not a troll. Please, seek professional help. This is a video game. If you are unable to distinguish it from real life and are willing to take your anger out on people in the real world.. you shouldn't be playing and you need help.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#354 - 2012-03-13 23:16:47 UTC
Ballamann wrote:
yeh but why is it possible for me to detect bots by flying though 0.0 and using dotlan?
Why is that not possible for the ccp guys?
because every bot brings money every month like every other acc.
-> They are not interested in banning somebody? they just do it to pour oil on troubled waters.
and question ur selv why they do it just 2 times a year and everytime in front of the fanfest!

greetings


I don't believe that using Dotlan is in any way a valid measurement of botting activity. If you decide that it is then all I can do is argue with you and you're simply not going to agree with me. Believe it or not everything isn't some giant conspiracy amd if you're using financials as a measurement we believe we benefit more financially from doing something about the problem.

Your statement regarding twice a year is just clearly false as other posts in this thread have pointed out.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#355 - 2012-03-13 23:18:04 UTC
Chribba wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I got a question as well. Isn't "1000 to 2000 bans" a bit too little? Considering people usually have 2 or more accounts that'd be like 500 unique botting people. Doesn't it sound a bit too low? Considering that in some systems there are 10+ bots?


This highlights the perspective issue. We banned 10 market bots and the market people in this thread stated they noticed a tremendous difference...

We build our system to deal with certain things and we can show results based on that. We can't give overall perspective (nor can any other company out there). If I could answer this question then I'd know how many bots there were and I'd ban them all.

Did you happen to ban some spambots this morning too perhaps... because Jita was really nice there for a while.

/c


We've always done work against spambots. Sometimes it just takes some time to get through the system.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#356 - 2012-03-13 23:19:32 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Inovy Dacella wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I got a question as well. Isn't "1000 to 2000 bans" a bit too little? Considering people usually have 2 or more accounts that'd be like 500 unique botting people. Doesn't it sound a bit too low? Considering that in some systems there are 10+ bots?


This highlights the perspective issue. We banned 10 market bots and the market people in this thread stated they noticed a tremendous difference...

We build our system to deal with certain things and we can show results based on that. We can't give overall perspective (nor can any other company out there). If I could answer this question then I'd know how many bots there were and I'd ban them all.


If players claim they can detect bots so easily, is it possible to make bot detecting a part of the game? Perhaps with some knid of bot detection software we could identify and report them to Concord, which in return could verify and issue a kill permit on the bot. Then we can pod kill them, loot them and collect the reward.


So you just want killmail and don't really care about the needed action is banning right?

And autodection rarely works. If botters learn how it works they will go 99 percent before ban and still RMT and destroy the market.

Report bot is the best tool for the players right now. The players notice the signs over time on the harder to find ones.


The reporting feature provides us with a lot of useful information.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#357 - 2012-03-13 23:21:29 UTC
Jovius Marginus wrote:
Here's an idea. How about some retribution evestyle before they were banned. Lets say that for a period of 24hours before the ban goes through, all chars on the acount are killable in highsec and a nice flashy red. This will give the bonus of us being able get some retribution eve style, they also have the added punishment of losing assets.


Stuff like this gets discussed all the time but it's really difficult for us to implement things like this.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#358 - 2012-03-13 23:25:38 UTC
Abyss Azizora wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Abyss Azizora wrote:
Ballamann wrote:
yeh but why is it possible for me to detect bots by flying though 0.0 and using dotlan?
Why is that not possible for the ccp guys?
because every bot brings money every month like every other acc.
-> They are not interested in banning somebody? they just do it to pour oil on troubled waters.
and question ur selv why they do it just 2 times a year and everytime in front of the fanfest!

greetings


Pretty much agree with this. I see eve bot banning as more of a promotional thing than a concerned effort. I would LOVE to be proven wrong, but I still think CCP only bans a few rather than the masses in order to keep them paying.

I know finding every bot is impossible, but when I can and often do point out/report a dozen+ bots a day (And a week later they are still there.) while playing for only a few hours, and while in the process of doing other things, I damn well know a dedicated development team should be banning nearly 500 bots a day, every day. (They would come back with new accounts every day from botted PLEX, so that's sustainable numbers.)

I don't necessarily blame the people in the development team, more the suits in charge, that see bots as people paying to ruin the game, but also filling CCP's wallet.


I am just going to say that in my opinion you know very little of how complex the botting situation is so please stop posting libel about CCP.

BTW. One of the main goals needs to be to "scare" the botters more than anything. Many run their bots full bore and more news of bot bannings will get them to start making their bots less delectable by changing their behavior. This causes a massive drop in output so many being forced to do that or reported or banned WILL help EVE.

#1 Get rid of the easy to find empire bots.
#2 Get rid of the easy to find null and WH bots.
#3 Try to find some of the harder yet bigger to find bot networks that are involved with RMT and ban them. This generates news and scares botters.
#4 Finally through the above try to encourage blues to report blue bots. This will help catch more botters.


While I fully admit I am not in any way in charge of banning bots, nor have I ever been in any game...


If they really wanted to ban bots, 90% of bots would be gone in a month tops, they also wouldn't be giving this moronic temp bans for botting, it'd just be an outright perma-ban. And if CCP are somehow having an issue with this, hire me, and I will personally take care of almost all the bots in a month.


Just gonna leave both of those out there. If this was a simple thing to deal with we'd already be there. I'm sure I could be accused of a lot of things but relishing wasting my time has never been one of them. The conspiracies fall apart when you accept the fact that the easy way out in all of this would have just been to leave the problem alone. We simply didn't feel that was the right thing to do and I've personally put in a lot of time and effort to ensuring things stay that way.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Dubaschu
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#359 - 2012-03-13 23:49:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Dubaschu
Hi CCP,

This is awefull that " I do need to add to that the fact that these things were turned off for a period of time". I spotted Bots everyday and we reported them and yet CCP didnot get removed...Explains why!

You have good news becuase now you look after this, sad beucase this shows CCP cannot keep full control of one team and that even though you look after this now, the last team also promissed this, and now we hear they got removed becuase of other resource requirement.

Can for once please CCP stop changing stuff and messing around. The current Market is massivly inflated...Bots....
Can you hit harder on Bots! As soon as we report bots...Bam get them

Thanks
Dubaschu
Mik kyo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#360 - 2012-03-15 20:28:23 UTC
So it seems a few dudes have recieved bans for afking domis while at work.

I would have hoped CCP would at least be banning botters by now Oops