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New dev blog: Team Security - Banning Bad Guys and also Bad Guys

First post First post
Author
Vassilius Amilupar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#321 - 2012-03-08 10:08:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Vassilius Amilupar
I think CCP are a bit late on fighting bot since they are here from 6 years if not since the begining of the game ...

They already did their massive amount of damage on the game by providing easy ISKs to some groups(by industrialisation of the botting) and maybe more tricks about hacking the client.

But anyway, you have to do it, congratulation on that !!

I think the 3 strikes is too much friendly, people try, people get warned, end of it, if they go a second time they will do it whenever is possible. The bad things for you as a company, is that give you less subscription ... ( We are not blind ).

but there is something more interesting behind the bot in a casual manner. Doing NPCs, or mission is a pain after few hours of play, the fun is not here from my point of view, i'm playing this game for 6-7years with lot of mate and we agree on that ...

You are already a bot when you do mining with 2 or more account , or doing boring mission or boring belt or similar activity .

Will you ban us all ? :D

Anyway good job on chasing bot CCP Sreegs and team, that from a ex-ally doing boring pos shooting with your ex-alliance :)


PS: sorry for the bad english text ...
Aren Dar
EVE University
Ivy League
#322 - 2012-03-08 10:39:58 UTC
Selling characters is a side business to most botters, and not their main one. They make more in a weeks botting than they will do by selling their Tengu pilot of Character bazaar. So this will slightly raise the cost of botting, but won't prevent it.
Claire Raynor
NovaGear
#323 - 2012-03-08 18:10:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Claire Raynor
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Have a wonderful weekend!


Thanks Sreegs - As an industrial player this is great news. BTW - I don't like rude people - but I will have a good weekend as well now thanks to this effort of yours and your team.

Even just - Simply stating / restating an intention to act against cheats will deter some of them I am sure.

Nice work - and you have a good weekend too!
Sephiroth Clone VII
Imperial Dreams
#324 - 2012-03-09 02:53:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Sephiroth Clone VII
KFenn wrote:
Bubanni wrote:
OH ccp, what are you doing to make sure they don't just RMT away the accounts? (sell the account for real money) when they get locked...

In all honesty, what can they do? If they suspect the account has been involved in RMT they can close it, but it's really, really hard to detect that.


The account could be RMTed away, but under the old system a gold miner could have his character jump accounts, along with fortune who would know if the new account is the same person or a different one.

If the same char is on the same account of a suspect botter is stuck, if they (or someone else) does it again, with the same char and account the strikes could keep raising. Doesn't matter if its peter or paul who is now farming with the account, the offenses would (or should) be tied to the same account, and lead to banning.

Yes it might be possible to RMT a farming char for botting who has a warning on them, but then they pay $100 for a account that is one flag away from ban, I don't believe telling ccp that the account was traded illegally would help the case of the new owner over past offenses, and explaining any new offenses.

As others suggested, 3 strikes is way too lenient, I would say if suspect botting/laundering isk for botting, lock the chars and account, and assets at once. Then do a judicial review of the account, if it is found to be a botter, permaban if it is, or unlock if it is not (innocence). Or one warning with char lock, then permaban after next offence.

Also make sure that stuff like freezing assets and char transfers, and warnings are never revoked over time unless innocence is proven. Don't encourage cycling characters, make accounts marked men, forever.
Parthonax
#325 - 2012-03-09 12:35:11 UTC
Who cares CCP you are killing your own game anyway
Bots are not the the real reason this game has become dull and one sided

Your own failure in giving newplayers a reason to keep playing your own idiotic policy in encouraging griefing and your biased opinion and way you favour nullsec alliances , favoring them over the majority of your subscribers ,

that what will kill your game not bots
You probably already lost more subscribers because of these facts than the whole incarnia debacle and , these latest bot purges together
so this is permanence
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#326 - 2012-03-09 14:42:43 UTC
Parthonax wrote:
Who cares CCP you are killing your own game anyway
Bots are not the the real reason this game has become dull and one sided

Your own failure in giving newplayers a reason to keep playing your own idiotic policy in encouraging griefing and your biased opinion and way you favour nullsec alliances , favoring them over the majority of your subscribers ,

that what will kill your game not bots
You probably already lost more subscribers because of these facts than the whole incarnia debacle and , these latest bot purges together


Hi welcome to the bot thread. Please stay on topic.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#327 - 2012-03-09 14:49:41 UTC
Xorv wrote:


Thanks for the reply Sreegs, your efforts in dealing with botters and communicating with the EVE community here is genuinely appreciated. Still very underwhelmed by the punishment , 14 days is barely a slap on the wrist for someone who has gone out of their way to get a third party program with the specific intent to cheat in the game.

While it is understood you did not respond to my specific suggestions, and I appreciate why,. I will say this, EVE needs holistic treatment that addresses the disease not merely treating the symptoms, and that can only be done at the design level. A lot of us are hoping that Inferno moves in that direction and really delivers.


Not directly at you but since this is a common refrain, 14 days works. It simply does. You may not like that it works but it does and we'll show you the numbers that back that up. In addition there's some other fun things that are happening like that character lock, as well as something fresh I'll announce once it's ready.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#328 - 2012-03-09 16:27:43 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Xorv wrote:


Thanks for the reply Sreegs, your efforts in dealing with botters and communicating with the EVE community here is genuinely appreciated. Still very underwhelmed by the punishment , 14 days is barely a slap on the wrist for someone who has gone out of their way to get a third party program with the specific intent to cheat in the game.

While it is understood you did not respond to my specific suggestions, and I appreciate why,. I will say this, EVE needs holistic treatment that addresses the disease not merely treating the symptoms, and that can only be done at the design level. A lot of us are hoping that Inferno moves in that direction and really delivers.


Not directly at you but since this is a common refrain, 14 days works. It simply does. You may not like that it works but it does and we'll show you the numbers that back that up. In addition there's some other fun things that are happening like that character lock, as well as something fresh I'll announce once it's ready.



Forcing them to watch Beiber music videos?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AGH2JcVVL0

Where I am.

Endeavour Starfleet
#329 - 2012-03-09 19:33:58 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Xorv wrote:


Thanks for the reply Sreegs, your efforts in dealing with botters and communicating with the EVE community here is genuinely appreciated. Still very underwhelmed by the punishment , 14 days is barely a slap on the wrist for someone who has gone out of their way to get a third party program with the specific intent to cheat in the game.

While it is understood you did not respond to my specific suggestions, and I appreciate why,. I will say this, EVE needs holistic treatment that addresses the disease not merely treating the symptoms, and that can only be done at the design level. A lot of us are hoping that Inferno moves in that direction and really delivers.


Not directly at you but since this is a common refrain, 14 days works. It simply does. You may not like that it works but it does and we'll show you the numbers that back that up. In addition there's some other fun things that are happening like that character lock, as well as something fresh I'll announce once it's ready.



Forcing them to watch Beiber music videos?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AGH2JcVVL0


Now that is just cruel! Twisted

Aren Dar wrote:
Selling characters is a side business to most botters, and not their main one. They make more in a weeks botting than they will do by selling their Tengu pilot of Character bazaar. So this will slightly raise the cost of botting, but won't prevent it.


Yes but it is still a major blow to botters. They cant get affected characters and accounts "off the books" now. And that will reduce their effectiveness.

CCP Sreegs wrote:
Not directly at you but since this is a common refrain, 14 days works. It simply does. You may not like that it works but it does and we'll show you the numbers that back that up. In addition there's some other fun things that are happening like that character lock, as well as something fresh I'll announce once it's ready.


Agreed. And folks as much as we would like to see bot accounts thrown into the lava in the first detection. Fact is many can be *saved* And eventually become good players who will find and report bots on their own as well.

Looking forward to hearing about more stats and efforts in the future. Until then folks keep reporting the bots that you see! Even if they are blue!
Chokichi Ozuwara
Perkone
Caldari State
#330 - 2012-03-10 21:23:07 UTC
I really like what you guys have done to combat botters. Seeing the effect throughout the game tbh, particularly in the commodity markets and with missions.

Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.

Zleon Leigh
#331 - 2012-03-10 22:49:54 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
naming and shaming introduces a whole DPA issue. I'd pretty much say 'They can't do it', from a legal perspective.


I was trying not to pretend to be a lawyer but the DPA and issues related to that are indeed discussion points. :)



Naming and shaming of a character that CCP owns anyway?

Name them! I want to be as far away from a botter/rmt'er as I can get....

Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital. CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day

PvP's latest  incentive program ** Unified Inventory **  'Cause you gotta kill something after trying to use it

Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#332 - 2012-03-11 00:25:47 UTC
Anyone done some spreadsheet work to show what regions are owned by who and a graph that shows the NPC kills prior to the bot ban and after?
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#333 - 2012-03-11 03:18:07 UTC
eXeler0n wrote:
Good thing! It would be a nice idea to give them a -10 security status. So they have to work for the bad things they have done :) And everybody can shoot them ^^ And tag them as botters until they are outlaws :)


Most botters (off the top of my head it's 3am) are in 0.0. Sec status doesn't matter.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#334 - 2012-03-11 03:21:05 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I got a question as well. Isn't "1000 to 2000 bans" a bit too little? Considering people usually have 2 or more accounts that'd be like 500 unique botting people. Doesn't it sound a bit too low? Considering that in some systems there are 10+ bots?


This highlights the perspective issue. We banned 10 market bots and the market people in this thread stated they noticed a tremendous difference...

We build our system to deal with certain things and we can show results based on that. We can't give overall perspective (nor can any other company out there). If I could answer this question then I'd know how many bots there were and I'd ban them all.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Ballamann
Heuristic ALgorithmic
#335 - 2012-03-11 09:11:55 UTC
yeh but why is it possible for me to detect bots by flying though 0.0 and using dotlan?
Why is that not possible for the ccp guys?
because every bot brings money every month like every other acc.
-> They are not interested in banning somebody? they just do it to pour oil on troubled waters.
and question ur selv why they do it just 2 times a year and everytime in front of the fanfest!

greetings
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#336 - 2012-03-11 11:30:35 UTC
Awesome stuff - keep it up!

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest

Abyss Azizora
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#337 - 2012-03-11 12:38:50 UTC
Ballamann wrote:
yeh but why is it possible for me to detect bots by flying though 0.0 and using dotlan?
Why is that not possible for the ccp guys?
because every bot brings money every month like every other acc.
-> They are not interested in banning somebody? they just do it to pour oil on troubled waters.
and question ur selv why they do it just 2 times a year and everytime in front of the fanfest!

greetings


Pretty much agree with this. I see eve bot banning as more of a promotional thing than a concerned effort. I would LOVE to be proven wrong, but I still think CCP only bans a few rather than the masses in order to keep them paying.

I know finding every bot is impossible, but when I can and often do point out/report a dozen+ bots a day (And a week later they are still there.) while playing for only a few hours, and while in the process of doing other things, I damn well know a dedicated development team should be banning nearly 500 bots a day, every day. (They would come back with new accounts every day from botted PLEX, so that's sustainable numbers.)

I don't necessarily blame the people in the development team, more the suits in charge, that see bots as people paying to ruin the game, but also filling CCP's wallet.
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#338 - 2012-03-11 12:58:58 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I got a question as well. Isn't "1000 to 2000 bans" a bit too little? Considering people usually have 2 or more accounts that'd be like 500 unique botting people. Doesn't it sound a bit too low? Considering that in some systems there are 10+ bots?


This highlights the perspective issue. We banned 10 market bots and the market people in this thread stated they noticed a tremendous difference...

We build our system to deal with certain things and we can show results based on that. We can't give overall perspective (nor can any other company out there). If I could answer this question then I'd know how many bots there were and I'd ban them all.

Did you happen to ban some spambots this morning too perhaps... because Jita was really nice there for a while.

/c

★★★ Secure 3rd party service ★★★

Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'

Twitter @ChribbaVeldspar

Inovy Dacella
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
#339 - 2012-03-11 19:24:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Inovy Dacella
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I got a question as well. Isn't "1000 to 2000 bans" a bit too little? Considering people usually have 2 or more accounts that'd be like 500 unique botting people. Doesn't it sound a bit too low? Considering that in some systems there are 10+ bots?


This highlights the perspective issue. We banned 10 market bots and the market people in this thread stated they noticed a tremendous difference...

We build our system to deal with certain things and we can show results based on that. We can't give overall perspective (nor can any other company out there). If I could answer this question then I'd know how many bots there were and I'd ban them all.


If players claim they can detect bots so easily, is it possible to make bot detecting a part of the game? Perhaps with some knid of bot detection software we could identify and report them to Concord, which in return could verify and issue a kill permit on the bot. Then we can pod kill them, loot them and collect the reward.
Endeavour Starfleet
#340 - 2012-03-11 19:27:06 UTC
Abyss Azizora wrote:
Ballamann wrote:
yeh but why is it possible for me to detect bots by flying though 0.0 and using dotlan?
Why is that not possible for the ccp guys?
because every bot brings money every month like every other acc.
-> They are not interested in banning somebody? they just do it to pour oil on troubled waters.
and question ur selv why they do it just 2 times a year and everytime in front of the fanfest!

greetings


Pretty much agree with this. I see eve bot banning as more of a promotional thing than a concerned effort. I would LOVE to be proven wrong, but I still think CCP only bans a few rather than the masses in order to keep them paying.

I know finding every bot is impossible, but when I can and often do point out/report a dozen+ bots a day (And a week later they are still there.) while playing for only a few hours, and while in the process of doing other things, I damn well know a dedicated development team should be banning nearly 500 bots a day, every day. (They would come back with new accounts every day from botted PLEX, so that's sustainable numbers.)

I don't necessarily blame the people in the development team, more the suits in charge, that see bots as people paying to ruin the game, but also filling CCP's wallet.


I am just going to say that in my opinion you know very little of how complex the botting situation is so please stop posting libel about CCP.

BTW. One of the main goals needs to be to "scare" the botters more than anything. Many run their bots full bore and more news of bot bannings will get them to start making their bots less delectable by changing their behavior. This causes a massive drop in output so many being forced to do that or reported or banned WILL help EVE.

#1 Get rid of the easy to find empire bots.
#2 Get rid of the easy to find null and WH bots.
#3 Try to find some of the harder yet bigger to find bot networks that are involved with RMT and ban them. This generates news and scares botters.
#4 Finally through the above try to encourage blues to report blue bots. This will help catch more botters.