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New dev blog: Team Security - Banning Bad Guys and also Bad Guys

First post First post
Author
CynoNet Two
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#301 - 2012-03-04 02:45:52 UTC
Carlos Aranda wrote:
This is very wrong. In RL, too. If you do not fight criminals, they take over your world.


Not only do you seem to have great difficulty in seeing that real life is not the same as a video game, but I get the impression you come from a rather corrupt area of the world and seem to be rather bitter about that fact.

It's not my job to hunt down and fight criminals on behalf of the police*, and neither is it my job to hunt down and catch botters on behalf of CCP. Perhaps if you reined in your seething rage over ZOMG SPACESHIP CHEATERS you'd be able to join an adult discussion on the matter, without resorting to trite cliches or evading word filters because swearing is so edgy.

*although I did enjoy the film Super
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#302 - 2012-03-04 02:51:16 UTC
Orbit Uranus wrote:
Alliances aren't playing EVE to be CCP's police task force on bots. Let the ones who get paid for it find the bots.


Yeah... I see what you wrote but, here is what I heard you say...

Orbit Uranus wrote:
I just had some of my bot accounts banned and I'm pretty upset. Ban the other guys bots, not mine!
Samroski
Middle-Earth
#303 - 2012-03-04 06:29:16 UTC
CynoNet Two wrote:

It's not my job to hunt down and fight criminals on behalf of the police*, and neither is it my job to hunt down and catch botters on behalf of CCP. Perhaps if you reined in your seething rage over ZOMG SPACESHIP CHEATERS you'd be able to join an adult discussion on the matter, without resorting to trite cliches or evading word filters because swearing is so edgy.
*although I did enjoy the film Super

It is your civic duty to report a crime in RL, if you are witness to it, no matter where in the world you live. I agree that you do not need to apprehend the criminal- but you cannot justify not reporting it to the police.

Any colour you like.

Anika Mobius
Solid State Security
#304 - 2012-03-04 07:32:15 UTC
Most of these issue are resolved if CCP is just intelligent in their approach and follows some simple rules:


  1. Use an intelligent, statistical based detection algorithm to detect suspected bots. Make sure every reported bot gets tested ASAP using the algorithm. Unlike real life, CCP actually is god and does know everything you've been doing. This can be made to work, and well.
  2. Lock characters suspected of botting, but not just accused of botting. Be sure to send the on file email account a notification of the lock down along with an explanation.
  3. Have a system by which owners of lock characters can appeal the lock down. Make this a standard appeals process by which any owner who need it, has easy access to it.
  4. Owners that fail to appeal or fail their appeal should have their accounts banned.
  5. Have an escalation path for banned accounts (similar to a senior or appeals court).
  6. Make sure innocent locked/banned accounts are compensated in game & training time.


This seems like a lot at first, but these are paying customers and if they are not truly at fault they should not be punished. Think of this as a final death execution where the defendant is granted a number of appeals at higher and higher levels of court until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt or set free with an apology.

Also, some will say this is too much and will cost a lot. Well as far as I can tell, CCP just raised our fee by US$5/month.

Finally, to restore faith and trust: CCP should post statistical number about locked/banned accounts due to botting. They should also post number about how many were accused but found innocent. The data should be broken down by the types of botting being done and the region of space it was being done in.
  • A.Mobius
Endeavour Starfleet
#305 - 2012-03-04 11:12:48 UTC
CynoNet Two wrote:
Carlos Aranda wrote:
This is very wrong. In RL, too. If you do not fight criminals, they take over your world.


Not only do you seem to have great difficulty in seeing that real life is not the same as a video game, but I get the impression you come from a rather corrupt area of the world and seem to be rather bitter about that fact.

It's not my job to hunt down and fight criminals on behalf of the police*, and neither is it my job to hunt down and catch botters on behalf of CCP. Perhaps if you reined in your seething rage over ZOMG SPACESHIP CHEATERS you'd be able to join an adult discussion on the matter, without resorting to trite cliches or evading word filters because swearing is so edgy.

*although I did enjoy the film Super


Well if you don't want to put much effort into it I can understand. However if you see an obvious blue bot you would report it right?
Carlos Aranda
Doomheim
#306 - 2012-03-04 11:35:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Carlos Aranda
CynoNet Two wrote:
Carlos Aranda wrote:
This is very wrong. In RL, too. If you do not fight criminals, they take over your world.


Not only do you seem to have great difficulty in seeing that real life is not the same as a video game, but I get the impression you come from a rather corrupt area of the world and seem to be rather bitter about that fact.


Criminals are very emotional ppl. If organized crime makes law no more count, they rule and murder ppl, who break their law. It is about live and death, or fight and silience.

Eve is only a game. It is so easy compared to RL to be not silent and hide from the cheaters. Just do not be silient and let them do what they want. that is exactly what they want. Silent people. Maybe the cheater companeis ahve more rescourses than Darius and CCP. If we do nothing, it can not be controlled.

In Italy are many cams, sometimes they film a mafia murder with people around it. But nobody want to be witness in mafia land. Or if your car stolen and police only laugh about you. Next time stolen again. Then it will not take long time until the first guys, whose car was stolen, steal car "back" from somebody else. Mafia towns are very silent, because everybody has fear.

But you do not need to have fear in Eve or be silent. So you should use that privileg.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#307 - 2012-03-04 17:21:32 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Adding to my post above with a practical example.

There's a 3rd party tool that has been announced weeks ago (has 20 or so forum pages!) that completely automates in game market prices gathering. It really opens the right window for you, fills in the right item for you, then switches to the next and so on.

With such cumbersome default UI, a player seeing such software would rejoyce!

But wait, is this software - residing on the official EvE forums but never "checked" legit? Or is it a bot? What to the dozens who use it? Until what point an end user is meant to be so much geek to know if a certain python thing is good, another is bad, a DLL is ok and another is not? This is the lack of "tools" I am talking about.


That sounds illegal. It probably is and the ones using it will get probably banned soon (if its first time then rather temporarily). If in doubt you can always petition and ask if something you plan to do is legal in EVE. No need to guess.

It has been posted several times by devs and GM's what they consider illegal in EVE. As a rough rule of thumb - if it automates the game to the point where without your input the game "plays on its own" its illegal. And it does not matter if you are sitting at computer and watching it to do it or not.

Now fancy keyboards n stuff are a bit of a gray area, but there are limits what CCP allows in there as well. I know as I petitioned a while ago asking if one thing is legal and was told not to do it as it would get me banned. I was asking about old PI system which was very damn clik heavy and a mouse driver which were able to record the mouse movements and then replay them. So it would have been relatively easy to record the mouse movements once and then replay them every morning for 20 minutes it took me to refresh my PI farm while just sitting there and sipping my morning coffee. Ofc as I was told to not do it I did not and continued wasting 20 minutes of my life every morning clicking on PI crap until I got fed up with it and stopped doing PI.

It's ok to use fancy keyboard to activate hardeners or launchers/turrets with one button press. It is not ok to make the same keyboard macro activate the launchers once every ~3 minutes, load up with FoF and go watch TV (also, by the same logic, putting papewrweight on F1 is bannable offence, as it allows "AFK play"). Anything that allows "AFK play" is not allowed, regardless if it's fancy hardware, clever python script, some recorded pattern of movements or even just plain old rock put on F1 on the perfectly ordinary keyboard.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#308 - 2012-03-04 17:55:54 UTC
Carniflex wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Adding to my post above with a practical example.

There's a 3rd party tool that has been announced weeks ago (has 20 or so forum pages!) that completely automates in game market prices gathering. It really opens the right window for you, fills in the right item for you, then switches to the next and so on.

With such cumbersome default UI, a player seeing such software would rejoyce!

But wait, is this software - residing on the official EvE forums but never "checked" legit? Or is it a bot? What to the dozens who use it? Until what point an end user is meant to be so much geek to know if a certain python thing is good, another is bad, a DLL is ok and another is not? This is the lack of "tools" I am talking about.


That sounds illegal. It probably is and the ones using it will get probably banned soon (if its first time then rather temporarily). If in doubt you can always petition and ask if something you plan to do is legal in EVE. No need to guess.

It has been posted several times by devs and GM's what they consider illegal in EVE. As a rough rule of thumb - if it automates the game to the point where without your input the game "plays on its own" its illegal. And it does not matter if you are sitting at computer and watching it to do it or not.

Now fancy keyboards n stuff are a bit of a gray area, but there are limits what CCP allows in there as well. I know as I petitioned a while ago asking if one thing is legal and was told not to do it as it would get me banned. I was asking about old PI system which was very damn clik heavy and a mouse driver which were able to record the mouse movements and then replay them. So it would have been relatively easy to record the mouse movements once and then replay them every morning for 20 minutes it took me to refresh my PI farm while just sitting there and sipping my morning coffee. Ofc as I was told to not do it I did not and continued wasting 20 minutes of my life every morning clicking on PI crap until I got fed up with it and stopped doing PI.

It's ok to use fancy keyboard to activate hardeners or launchers/turrets with one button press. It is not ok to make the same keyboard macro activate the launchers once every ~3 minutes, load up with FoF and go watch TV (also, by the same logic, putting papewrweight on F1 is bannable offence, as it allows "AFK play"). Anything that allows "AFK play" is not allowed, regardless if it's fancy hardware, clever python script, some recorded pattern of movements or even just plain old rock put on F1 on the perfectly ordinary keyboard.


Actually, this specific one is fine. It's a web page that uses the igb browser's javascript calls to open the market pages (CCP provided) and a cache scraper for getting the prices. Both have been oked by GMs. Doesn't change anything.

It's what eve central, eve market data and eve marketeer use.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#309 - 2012-03-05 08:09:25 UTC
THANK YOU, this means allot to me.
Stragak
#310 - 2012-03-05 11:54:05 UTC
KrakizBad wrote:
Any comment on whether market bots were also hit? Inquiring trading minds want to know!

I would like those details as well Smile

"Oh look, the cat is sitting in the litter box and pooping over the side again" every time we go through these "rough patches". In good humor, and slight annoyance, Boiglio   https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238130&p=82

Galmas
13.
Enigma Project
#311 - 2012-03-05 13:04:44 UTC
In the name of our whole corporation i want to thank you guys for taking actions against these people.

We have made real friends while playing the best game ever and would love to keep doing so.

I just hope the "three strikes" dont mean three chances for botter (...fill in your favorite offense here...) to refine their software.

+ awesome pic
- no graphs and why the hell is it that expensive to go to fanfest once the special offers are sold out Cry Next year i will be with the early birds P

Cheers
Gal
Onar Maldarian
Perkone
Caldari State
#312 - 2012-03-05 15:47:49 UTC
8 years. [irony]Good job[/irony]
Trainwreck McGee
Doomheim
#313 - 2012-03-05 15:59:21 UTC
I think it should be

1 warning with a 30 day ban and a year character lock
and if they do it again perma ban.

Why give them more then one warning? it makes no sense....

I dont care if only 3% of people get a third strike Why let people bot for 2 strikes? I know a guy who said he botted for 2 years and got 2 strikes in that time and stopped botting. BUT HE BOTTED FOR 2 YEARS BEFORE STOPPING.

This is not good.

CCP Trainwreck - Weekend Custodial Engineer / CCP Necrogoats foot stool

Chevy Hakoke
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#314 - 2012-03-05 23:00:06 UTC
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:
Suggestion:

After first offense/14-day ban:

Reduce the character to -10.0 security status and -5.00 faction-standing with all four factions, to be improved using the standard methods.

I think this will make absolutely clear that they should never, ever do that again whilst giving them a legitimate chance to "rehabilitate" themselves.

After second offense:

Wallet reduced to zero, all assets removed, plus the standings penalty above, again able to "rehabilitate" using normal methods.

Third offense:

Permanent, account-level, not just that character--ban, all characters and assets on that account biomassed.

Because...because **** them, that's why.

E:

The second offense's penalties should apply to all characters on that account, not just the one botting, and any re-rolls in empty slots will be "born" with those standings as well.

Botting is bad, m'kay? It just needs to be shown very explicitly to anyone who does it that it will carry harsh, long-term consequences. the current first 2 strikes are a slap on the wrist, although the character transfer-lock is a big step in the right direction.




yes....Yes....YES!!!!!!!!
Elanor Vega
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#315 - 2012-03-06 00:25:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Elanor Vega
Trainwreck McGee wrote:
I think it should be

1 warning with a 30 day ban and a year character lock
and if they do it again perma ban.

Why give them more then one warning? it makes no sense....

I dont care if only 3% of people get a third strike Why let people bot for 2 strikes? I know a guy who said he botted for 2 years and got 2 strikes in that time and stopped botting. BUT HE BOTTED FOR 2 YEARS BEFORE STOPPING.

This is not good.



It must be PERMANENT lock.
In any other way they will only have more accounts.
This is banned, make new, this is banned, make new, this is banned, first is unlocked, sell char from first, make new acc, buy new char. And here is cycle closed again. With more accounts botter have the same thing as now, when is banned, sell char, buy new char on new acc. Roll

THIS CAN NOT HAPPEN, SO LOCK MUST BE PERMANENT!!!
Powers Sa
#316 - 2012-03-06 09:45:09 UTC
It seems like the market bot bannings have relaxed the jita market, but regional markets like VFK in Deklein still feel like they are being mechanically/methodically manipulated. Most things I add are undercut by 0.01 isk within 30minutes. Various analytical tools have let me target specific things to test this. I'm willing to share my data on how I arrived at what goods to monitor and the patterns that have developed as a result. Also, please ban these jerks. They can't be sharking people 23x7 day in and day out, and still be human.

Do you like winning t2 frigs and dictors for Dirt Cheap?https://eveninggames.net/register/ref/dQddmNgyLhFBqNJk

Remeber: Gambling addiction is no laughing matter unless you've lost a vast space fortune on the internet.

Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#317 - 2012-03-06 14:28:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
How about making a way for the bots don't work anymore? this is a bot site with its description vids and whatever so you guys from ccp can start with it: http://www.reboot.gr/ I saw it on my facebook and i had to post it here, it will help understand how bots work.

Bots are usualy dumb, they can't handle against the intelligence and determination of good players.

I already saw many drakes in null-sec using this feature. Since my corp and Alliace are totaly against botters we usually get a tackler fleet, put 1 player on each belt of the botter system and then everybody logs off... then we log back again at the same time and we try to point it down before it warps away and cloaks. and we repeat the process until it is tackled. Then we kill it, and then we help the char back to a station Twisted PODing it back home.

Today we need about 10 players to kill a botter, but as soon as CCP delivers the cloak hunter ship this number will go down to 2 or 3. Because most of the botters use the safe-spot+cloak strategy. And as we get able to track the "botter cloaker" we can decloak and kill him easly. So it it get way more dangerous for bots, this will reduce significantly their numbers... ( Althoug this will also end the afk cloaker griefing... since it is a way to play the game afk, and also a form of bot imo.)

Please CCP, you guys don't need to hunt most of the bots. You can make the own system and players hunt the majority of them for you.

Also remove the mineral drop from Drones and give them bounty. So there will be more profit on mining and more minners and players will go to null-sec. removing the space of the botters. What will left for the botters will be hi-sec... but it will impact less the economy and can be easily spotted and reported.

Bot banning is a corrective measure. What you guys need are preventive measures... The more bots you need to ban the less your game is working!
Powers Sa
#318 - 2012-03-06 15:46:25 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:
How about making a way for the bots don't work anymore? this is a bot site with its description vids and whatever so you guys from ccp can start with it: http://www.reboot.gr/ I saw it on my facebook and i had to post it here, it will help understand how bots work.

Bots are usualy dumb, they can't handle against the intelligence and determination of good players.

So that was the source of the majority of the anom/belt ratting bots that were banned.

Do you like winning t2 frigs and dictors for Dirt Cheap?https://eveninggames.net/register/ref/dQddmNgyLhFBqNJk

Remeber: Gambling addiction is no laughing matter unless you've lost a vast space fortune on the internet.

Luvvin McHunt
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#319 - 2012-03-06 23:50:15 UTC
So if the light assault launchers are called 'Arrays' now - the new name implies every loaded missile can be shot at once.


Not a good name change for a launcher as it's less accurate/descriptive than the old name.
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#320 - 2012-03-06 23:53:45 UTC
bot get loots
get strike one
bot more get more loots
get strike 2, darn it oh well i have a plan
sell the actual account to some sap on the internet for $$

this is one of the many reasons the 3 strike system is foolish, maybe MAYBE 2 strikes.. but 3? come on.

the 2 strikes would be for players botting a few hours because they wanted a shiny battlecruiser, not to fund an alliance titan or 4.

other then that keep banning them.