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Please Provide Facts, not suppositions, that Eve Economy Broken

Author
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#1 - 2012-03-09 17:17:16 UTC
I am so tired about hearing the Eve economy is broken.

Can all these people screaming this please give detailed points with NUMBERS, rather than rants?
Only thing I know for sure is CCP themselves stated (Tuxford's tweets) that Eve is experiencing 1% inflation monthly.
I would say 12% inflation for many real life countries is pretty good, let alone a video game.

And please don't give examples of Plex prices, or mineral prices.
For every isolated item that has spiked in price in the past 12 months I am fairly confident that an isolated item can be found that has dropped in price.
THE L0CK
Denying You Access
#2 - 2012-03-09 17:27:04 UTC  |  Edited by: THE L0CK
The Logic cannot be found

The information you are looking for might have been fabricated, had its statistics changed, or is downright not available.


Please try the following:
If you typed the message in GD, make sure it is in crayon
Click the Back button to try another forum
Click Search to find Intelligent Debates


HTTP 404 - Thought out replies not found
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Do you smell what the Lock's cooking?

Thomas Abernathy
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Fraternity.
#3 - 2012-03-09 17:29:48 UTC
This is a discussion forum, expecting people to actually provide information is absurd.....Cool

"Fighting CCD since 2139"

Valei Khurelem
#4 - 2012-03-09 17:33:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Valei Khurelem
The idea behind inflation in real life is that it is created by printing more money than what the currency is actually worth, fiat currency is supposed to be representative of the value of something and ISK is a fiat currency. In real life fiat currency was originally used as a receipt to get gold and silver from banks which stored it all for customers. ISK currently is representing nothing because it is virtual and the virtual items it is being used with can also be 'spawned' out of nothing, there are no hard caps on anything that CCP creates in EVE.

Therefore I would always argue that the whole market in EVE is inflationary, this is why when you get new features added like incursions which generate more ISK you get a spike in prices which is easy to spot. The problem here is that people are just nitpicking like in real life and not looking at the bigger picture.

The problem isn't with the game features, it's with the game itself and the way it's designed, all MMORPGs that try to mimic real life markets are the same, I would say most of those statistics you have there are made up too, hope my explanation helped some but that's the way I see it.

TLDR: Both items of value and ISK can be spawned out of nothing and that is causing the whole market to be inflationary

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium

Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#5 - 2012-03-09 17:35:26 UTC
I took a redeemer BPC and looked at the cost of all the parts to make it in Jita.

With a -4 data core BPC it would cost just under 700 mill to buy, using competition buy rate parrts, all the stuff you need to make it. Or as an alternative, if you could accumulate the parts what you could make just selling the parts and not even making the ship. Prices are based on Layout formation BPC's. A 5 day lottery in will I get a -1 BPC.

Redeemer buy prices are 1 mill above reproc.
Redeemer sell are 617

The markets are all based on spreadsheets that have them min/ maxed to .5% and rely on large scale buy orders to make any kind of profit from market based manufacturing.

I won't say it's "broke" rather, its like the PvP in EVE. Nothing is left to chance or the imagination and it has all been mathed in to the ground. In RL there are natural disasters and discoveries. In EVE there is, the spreadsheet. It's not "fun".

R.I.P. Vile Rat

Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#6 - 2012-03-09 17:39:14 UTC
Valei Khurelem wrote:
The idea behind inflation in real life is that it is created by printing more money than what the currency is actually worth, fiat currency is supposed to be representative of the value of something and ISK is a fiat currency. In real life fiat currency was originally used as a receipt to get gold and silver from banks which stored it all for customers. ISK currently is representing nothing because it is virtual and the virtual items it is being used with can also be 'spawned' out of nothing, there are no hard caps on anything that CCP creates in EVE.

Therefore I would always argue that the whole market in EVE is inflationary, this is why when you get new features added like incursions which generate more ISK you get a spike in prices which is easy to spot. The problem here is that people are just nitpicking like in real life and not looking at the bigger picture.

The problem isn't with the game features, it's with the game itself and the way it's designed, all MMORPGs that try to mimic real life markets are the same, I would say most of those statistics you have there are made up too, hope my explanation helped some but that's the way I see it.

TLDR: Both items of value and ISK can be spawned out of nothing and that is causing the whole market to be inflationary


Because in real life gold and silver have REAL value.

And that's why there was never a global depression when we used the gold standard.

Im going to go smoke some pot now, and use the pages of my history book roll the joint. I can just use wikipedia now like everyone else. [sic]





internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it

leich
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#7 - 2012-03-09 17:42:14 UTC
How are mineral prices isolated?

You always base economic forcasts on the lowest level production component ie minerals

If you have not noticed most items have increased in price.

Mineral prices have gone up so meathron prices have gone up. thus navy megathron prices have gone up by the same amount.

You can check almost every well used ship in game and the story is the same.

is this inflation harming eve that up for opinion personaly i dont think so as a hole eve is too isk rich with not enough isk sinks.


Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#8 - 2012-03-09 17:45:34 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I am so tired about hearing the Eve economy is broken.

Can all these people screaming this please give detailed points with NUMBERS, rather than rants?
Only thing I know for sure is CCP themselves stated (Tuxford's tweets) that Eve is experiencing 1% inflation monthly.
I would say 12% inflation for many real life countries is pretty good, let alone a video game.

And please don't give examples of Plex prices, or mineral prices.
For every isolated item that has spiked in price in the past 12 months I am fairly confident that an isolated item can be found that has dropped in price.


EvE economy is not broken but your post is.

1) Compounding 1% a month does not make 12% a year

2) 12% inflation a year in "many RL countries is pretty good" makes me wonder what you are smoking.
Lexmana
#9 - 2012-03-09 18:39:01 UTC
Valei Khurelem wrote:
TLDR: Both items of value and ISK can be spawned out of nothing and that is causing the whole market to be inflationary

You are wrong. Inflation and deflation is caused by an imbalance between faucets and sinks (adjusted for accumulation in wallets and inventories).
Hartmann Pitts
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-03-09 18:44:46 UTC
Valei Khurelem wrote:
TLDR: Both items of value and ISK can be spawned out of nothing and that is causing the whole market to be inflationary


And ISK disappears into nothing too.

DrEyjoG has done some great presentations at FanFest about the economy. I think they are all up on YouTube.

If the whole market was inflationary, you would see a steady rise in prices since the beginning of Eve. You have instead seen a steady decrease in prices.

Latest Economic Devblog with Eve Economy Main Price Indexes

The last economic update was with Nov data (which is not recent enough), but hopefully there will be an economic presentation at FanFest again.

CCP_Diagoras has been putting up some really interesting stats for Eve, and many of them have been economic related. If people were looking at these it would end a few of the misconceptions that exist out there.

TL;DR - You're wrong about the underlying phenomenon of inflation in Eve over the entire historical period.
Endeavour Starfleet
#11 - 2012-03-09 19:01:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Endeavour Starfleet
IF they do the summer expansion right you should also see alot more isk vanish when there are good fights to be had again. (Assuming they actually do something to encourage small alliances to report to nullsec again such as more wormholes leading to nullsec to bypass the blue shield wall and sov changes to that parts of nullsec aren't deserts)

Edit: BTW the best way to counter massive Isk generation tho is to report blue bots. If people from every alliance would seriously start reporting their bot runners it would cause them to start running and cloaking when a blue is in system which should seriously reduce their production. Especially if blues start seriously look for blue bots.

Edit2: Also don't forget to report any mission or mining bots in hisec that you find folks! If you see a bot report it!
Ottersmacker
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#12 - 2012-03-09 19:04:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Ottersmacker
from a monetary operations perspective there's nothing wrong with the eve system, it is in fact great (and lol at the gold people).

* CCP is the monopoly issuer of all ISK, it controls all of what you call 'sinks' (rl: taxes) and 'faucets' (rl: gvt spending).
* The inherent value of ISK comes not from some noxcium convertability (lol gold), but it's usage in the 'sinks' (to get a bpo/skillbook/clone/?? requires you to spend isk).
* Ratting etc is essentially a job guarantee, nobody is unemployed in eve.


in fact the eve system could be used to explain the nature of modern fiat money in a monetarily sovereign country to a great deal of people stuck in some pseudo-gold-standard paradigm.

i just locked an open door.. strange, yet symbolically compelling.

Qen Tye
In Between
#13 - 2012-03-09 19:07:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Qen Tye
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
2) 12% inflation a year in "many RL countries is pretty good" makes me wonder what you are smoking.

lol

@ Dinsdale
12% inflation is not pretty good, good or even descent - it's bad.

Here -> go read
http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=inflation

Two possibilities exists: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying.

  • Arthur C. Clarke
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
#14 - 2012-03-09 19:12:27 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I am so tired about hearing the Eve economy is broken.

Can all these people screaming this please give detailed points with NUMBERS, rather than rants?
Only thing I know for sure is CCP themselves stated (Tuxford's tweets) that Eve is experiencing 1% inflation monthly.
I would say 12% inflation for many real life countries is pretty good, let alone a video game.

And please don't give examples of Plex prices, or mineral prices.
For every isolated item that has spiked in price in the past 12 months I am fairly confident that an isolated item can be found that has dropped in price.


EvE economy is not broken but your post is.

1) Compounding 1% a month does not make 12% a year

2) 12% inflation a year in "many RL countries is pretty good" makes me wonder what you are smoking.

1.01^12 = 1.127, so thats 12.7% inflation in a year, and the british economy almost collapsed (if you believe the fear mongering media) at less than 6% inflation. So, no 12% is not good at all for RL countries.

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice.

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#15 - 2012-03-09 19:12:38 UTC
Qen Tye wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
2) 12% inflation a year in "many RL countries is pretty good" makes me wonder what you are smoking.

lol

@ Dinsdale
12% inflation is not pretty good, good or even descent - it's bad.

Here -> go read
http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=inflation


Ah yeah, and I can go online and find 20 countries that are experiencing over 12% inflation right now.
For those countries, 12% is pretty good.

Is it great? No. Is it something that an economy wants to see long term? No.
But the facts remain that 12% is not uncommon, and for a video game economy to be running at that rate is just fine.
Drew Solaert
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-03-09 19:18:07 UTC
See my Sig.

I lied :o

Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
#17 - 2012-03-09 19:18:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Grey Azorria
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Qen Tye wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
2) 12% inflation a year in "many RL countries is pretty good" makes me wonder what you are smoking.

lol

@ Dinsdale
12% inflation is not pretty good, good or even descent - it's bad.

Here -> go read
http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=inflation


Ah yeah, and I can go online and find 20 countries that are experiencing over 12% inflation right now.
For those countries, 12% is pretty good.

Is it great? No. Is it something that an economy wants to see long term? No.
But the facts remain that 12% is not uncommon, and for a video game economy to be running at that rate is just fine.

Yes, if your inflation is above 12% (in which case you are in trouble), then having it go down to 12% is a good thing, but that doesn't mean that 12% is by any means 'good'.

But, 12.7% is apparently pretty good in video games(or at least not catastrophically bad), though ideally it should be lower - here's hoping Dust 514 will be a good isk sink.

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice.

highonpop
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#18 - 2012-03-09 19:30:40 UTC
EVE IS DYING BECAUSE I ******* SAID SO!

FC, what do?

Ottersmacker
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#19 - 2012-03-09 19:34:24 UTC
Stop with the crazy "more money in the system = automatic inflation!!", the value of isk is guaranteed by the sinks - a clone grade Pi costs 7.8M because ccp decides it costs that much and it won't rise because some incursion nublets create billions 'out of thin air!' it's not an automatic cause and effect, look at japan irl.. deflation with 200% gdp deficit.

inflation occurs when there is insane excess demand compared to what the 'economy' can produce. you can blame the science and industry mechanics, resource seeding or whatnot, but not the entire concept of 'out of thin air!! bawww'

i just locked an open door.. strange, yet symbolically compelling.

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-03-09 20:02:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
All of the sinks in the game combined are almost nothing to stop inflation. Some pilots simply don't get podded that often and don't need to clone themselves so much. Insurance cost practically nothing. Platinum insurance on some of the most expensive ships in the game is considered pocket change to many.

The cause is that hundreds maybe thousands of people at a time are constantly running incursions making billions of ISK for little risk. Every month billions of ISK are spontaneously created out of nowhere to pay incursion runners.

Look, PLEX cost roughly 250 mil each before Incursions. Now, they are over 500 mil each. Yet some people claim that has nothing to do with ISK being shat out by CONCORD.

Although to be fair, the EVE economy is superior to other MMO economies. Seriously runescape? Your most expensive item is a freaking paper hat?

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

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