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People are leaving low class wormholes for highsec incursions
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seany1212
M Y S T
#21 - 2012-02-20 16:25:44 UTC
Incursion vanguards pay to highly for the amount of effort require to complete them, CCP has acknowledged this, even if Incursions aren't fixed there will become a point where nanoribbon prices will be so high people will begin returning to wormhole space.

They're at 8+million per unit now, when before incursions existed they used to be around 5.5million. Eventually people will see it more isk/hour back in wormholes and it'll begin to pick up again. Some always go where there is most isk, maybe they just can't help themselves Roll
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#22 - 2012-02-20 16:45:43 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
I am starting to wonder if the mineral market is also getting impacted by all of this isk as prices are flying up at a rate I have never seen before. I can easily see trit hitting 5 isk per unit within the next two monthsUgh


Here's the weekly candle bars Tritanium graph.

You should easily see where trit will go in 2 months.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#23 - 2012-02-20 16:57:28 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
I can believe that *some* people are / have moved out of wormholes (for a variety of reasons) but I have no reason to suspect that people haven't also been moving into wormholes as well...

As an explorer with a long history in low-class wormholes and a lot of contacts made during that time, I can tell you that there has been a notable spike of empty/abandoned C1s and C2s in the past 3 months. I keep hoping it's a statistical glitch that will even out, and that I'll run into a long string of occupied systems soon, but to be honest at this point the odds are against it. My own well-documented observations show a trend of reduced occupation of the lower classes.

This hurts me because there was a time that "good" C2s sold for a reasonable amount of isk. These days it's hard to find people looking for them, and they're so much easier to find that most small corps are able to do it themselves.

Before Incursion, it worked like this: corps would move into low-class wormholes to learn the routine and make isk. They'd add to their numbers, make money, and once they knew what they were doing they'd move up to (usually) a C4 and abandon the C1/2. Those who couldn't manage surviving in the hole eventually left or were forced out. What I think is happening now is the usual process of people moving up/out, but there are fewer people moving in. That's why it's becoming more and more apparent now; the effect takes some time to really manifest.

I hope I'm wrong. As with all things exploration, I understand that this could be just a streak and not a pattern. But the more I explore, the more I document, the less likely it is that we're wrong about this.




I can say that I have observed the same thing as Floppie has. Used to be that even the C1s has "Carebear Death Stars" in them. Now they are becomming uncommon in C1 and C2. Used to be rare to find an "empty" C1/C2. Started seeing empty low class holes roughly in late spring of 2011.


Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#24 - 2012-02-20 16:58:25 UTC
I approve of the depopulation of wormhole space.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Removal Tool
ElitistOps
Snuffed Out
#25 - 2012-02-20 17:00:32 UTC
Well, according to those CSM minutes from december they are considering making drones have bounties instead of dropping drone alloys that are reprocessed into minerals.

I wonder where the mineral prices will go after that?

People will be leaving incursions/wh for mining veldspar.
Liam Mirren
#26 - 2012-02-20 17:05:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Mirren
Tippia wrote:
The average incursion runner injects 30× more ISK than the average mission runner.

The people trying to paint the effect of incursions as minimal can stop — CCP has released the data, and the effects are anything but minimal.



That's quite alarming. I can fully understand that CCP wouldn't want to create big waves and change things a whole lot too quickly, but in this case this needs to be addressed and rather quickly as well. Letting it slide while they're trying to work towards a compromise isn't good enough, shut it down first making it massively less profitable and THEN take the time to find a proper solution. The longer this stays as is, the worse it gets.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
Mr Bigwinky
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-02-20 17:07:55 UTC
Perhaps lower class wormholes require a unique selling point. Higher class wormholes have larger masses, capital escalations and higher WH bonuses. It seems at the moment, from a purely ISK viewpoint that the following is true:

High class WH > Incursions > Low class WH

Biggest risk, biggest isk > biggest isk for smallest risk > smallest isk with equally large risk.

A unique selling point may bring people back into C1 -> C4
Welcome to EVE online, here's your rubix cube, go F*** yourself ♥
Zangorus
Make-EVE-Great-Again
NO NEED LOOSE FACE
#28 - 2012-02-20 17:21:15 UTC
Now that all the noobs are leaving Wormholes , you should take all the good ones and such so when the incursions get nerfed you are on the top of the ISK mountain.

Like my comment and recieve 1 million isk ingame!
Paragon Renegade
Sebiestor Tribe
#29 - 2012-02-20 17:26:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Paragon Renegade
Drones, L4's and Incursions need to die (In Hisec/Dronelands anyway).

I'm baffled they were included

The pie is a tautology
Mr Bigwinky
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-02-20 17:35:19 UTC
Zangorus wrote:
Now that all the noobs are leaving Wormholes , you should take all the good ones and such so when the incursions get nerfed you are on the top of the ISK mountain.

Lol, take all the good ones! You guys are just so.... cute!
Welcome to EVE online, here's your rubix cube, go F*** yourself ♥
baltec1
Bat Country
The Initiative.
#31 - 2012-02-20 17:39:17 UTC
Removal Tool wrote:
Well, according to those CSM minutes from december they are considering making drones have bounties instead of dropping drone alloys that are reprocessed into minerals.

I wonder where the mineral prices will go after that?

People will be leaving incursions/wh for mining veldspar.


One can hope. I would rather see higher mineral costs because almost all minerals came from miners rather than rampent inflation.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#32 - 2012-02-20 17:54:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher Jones
Covert Kitty wrote:
I've lived in wormholes for a long time. Low class wormholes have always seemed like a great way to get newer players out of highsec, and into a more fun environment. Wormholes provide a good balance of pvp and pve, risk and reward.

I am by no means opposed to new content, however I have heard from many, friend and foe alike, who used to live in lower class wormholes (like a C2 with static C3), who are choosing to leave that environment for the safety and higher income of highsec incursions.

Players leaving more dangerous areas of the game because they can make more isk in highsec is a pretty unfortunate outcome of the way incursions are currently set up. Before incursions many complained about the income of L4 missions (and they were/are right). Incursions are now completely off the wall, and it's directly harming other areas of the game.

Highsec should be a training area, where you can safely learn basic skills. If you want to make real isk you should have to take a proportionate risk. The incursion concept has a lot of promise, and there are many good ideas out there for fixing and expanding on them.


I can see you have not run incursions yet. You should try them firsthand before you speak on them as if you know about them.

The 2 hisec incursions that were running yesterday had a total of 600 people, 500+ in one, <100 in the other. There's 9-11 people in VG a fleet and usually 3 systems with 6-7 sites. So in other words everybody who flew in incursions yesterday did not make more ISK than mission runners. Or c1/c2/c3 wormholers.

People left Wspace because CCP ****** small corps hard on PI and ****** nubs hard by disabling the WH API jump key. They heard the rumor that incursions are all that for every nub in new eden, and a lot of them flocked.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-02-20 17:56:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuri Kinnes
Tippia wrote:
Incursions alone inject ~⅓ the ISK of bounty-based ISK-making. The problem is that they're doing doing that even though there aren't all that many people doing them…

The people trying to paint the effect of incursions as minimal can stop — CCP has released the data, and the effects are anything but minimal.

(let me preface this by saying:
a I haven't lived in Hi-sec since Nov 2008 and,
b I've never run an incursion, at all, ever.)


Well, that sounds terrible - now, what is the damage? Not being a douché here, but, even if those numbers and any extra assumptions Tippia makes in that post are accurate to the ninth decimal - so what?


If there were such horrendous effects being wreaked upon the game, what are they? Inflation at last report was about 1%/month, not great, but no where near "horrendous".


What other effects should we be worried about?


Again, I don't have a vested interest in incursions, i'm really interested to know what the fuss is all about...
Paragon Renegade wrote:
Drones, L4's and Incursions need to die (In Hisec/Dronelands anyway).

I'm baffled they were included

?

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Paragon Renegade
Sebiestor Tribe
#34 - 2012-02-20 17:56:42 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

One can hope. I would rather see higher mineral costs because almost all minerals came from miners rather than rampent inflation.



I think all the money made from Drones is taken from mother players, it doesn't come from nowhere :3

The pie is a tautology
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#35 - 2012-02-20 18:07:55 UTC
Quote:
Incursions alone inject ~⅓ the ISK of bounty-based ISK-making. The problem is that they're doing doing that even though there aren't all that many people doing them…

The people trying to paint the effect of incursions as minimal can stop — CCP has released the data, and the effects are anything but minimal.


Its a problem only to the people who both are not doing them and cannot find another way to make enough ISK to sustain themselves.

Since you are not one of those people it is clear you have been infected with a case of Hombre Verde (jealousy).

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#36 - 2012-02-20 18:10:16 UTC
Sleepers don't have bounties, so there's no direct ISK injection unlike incursions.

Purge high-sec incursions entirely. Done.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#37 - 2012-02-20 18:14:34 UTC
Zagdul wrote:
Another issue is the massive faucet it's created driving inflation up.

The professions people once had in risky space to make income are no longer as viable as they once were. While there have been slight improvements, they haven't countered the flood of new isk that has come into the market.

Prices for ships and items have gone up making it more expensive for the common pvper to play EVE and what he used to spend a few hours in null sec doing (running sanctums/havens) has turned into days of effort to keep up the pace.

For a grunt, it's more expensive to play, yet their income has remained unchanged unless they too hop on the incursion bandwagon.


Hmm you complain of the inflation when referring to cost to you but you don't complain about inflation in relation to what you sell. Typical.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#38 - 2012-02-20 18:15:48 UTC
Andski wrote:
Sleepers don't have bounties, so there's no direct ISK injection unlike incursions.

Purge high-sec incursions entirely. Done.


And replace it with tech after they remove moons from null.

Done deal.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
baltec1
Bat Country
The Initiative.
#39 - 2012-02-20 18:20:33 UTC
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Incursions alone inject ~⅓ the ISK of bounty-based ISK-making. The problem is that they're doing doing that even though there aren't all that many people doing them…

The people trying to paint the effect of incursions as minimal can stop — CCP has released the data, and the effects are anything but minimal.

(let me preface this by saying:
a I haven't lived in Hi-sec since Nov 2008 and,
b I've never run an incursion, at all, ever.)


Well, that sounds terrible - now, what is the damage? Not being a douché here, but, even if those numbers and any extra assumptions Tippia makes in that post are accurate to the ninth decimal - so what?


If there were such horrendous effects being wreaked upon the game, what are they? Inflation at last report was about 1%/month, not great, but no where near "horrendous".


What other effects should we be worried about?


Again, I don't have a vested interest in incursions, i'm really interested to know what the fuss is all about...


well a drake has had 10 million added onto the pricetag in the last few months and an Abaddon used to be around 110 mil not too long ago and its all still going up.
FlameGlow
Perkone
Caldari State
#40 - 2012-02-20 18:28:18 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
As per CCP (Diagoras, I believe) missions completed/day is going down (along with bounties from missions), while incursion bounties are going up - there is some cross-pollination going on - so at least as far as *some* of the isk income is concerned, it's a wash.
Incursions alone inject ~⅓ the ISK of bounty-based ISK-making. The problem is that they're doing doing that even though there aren't all that many people doing them…
Quote:
Like to see what data you have that "incursions are completely off the wall" and "directly harming other areas of the game". Constant repetition =/= true.
The average incursion runner injects 30× more ISK than the average mission runner.

The people trying to paint the effect of incursions as minimal can stop — CCP has released the data, and the effects are anything but minimal.

Incursions should only reward LPs then, that way there will be no damage from extra isk and LP price will be self-regulating
Have to make the exchange rates to other LP floating too, based on demand, so incursions don't kill mission-running