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The Golem - The "Meh" of Marauders
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Tekashi Kovacs
Golfclap Inc
#61 - 2012-02-07 21:34:06 UTC
James Morgan wrote:
running AB and shield booster alongwith NOS ( yes the NOS really helps in cap).


Last time I was trying NOS in pve was 3 years ago and it didnt work on mobs. Have they changed anything since then?
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
#62 - 2012-02-07 21:37:00 UTC
Hans Momaki wrote:
Well, I do 1/5 th of my volleydmg against sansha elite-cruisers,


That's because their resists are much higher, not because they're too fast or too small.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#63 - 2012-02-07 21:54:04 UTC
Hans Momaki wrote:
Ireland VonVicious wrote:


Also the 800 is from no implants. I pull 832 with my implants and have 2 implants that effect explosion radius and speed to allow for close to full dps on cruisers without switching missles.



So, basically your two imps beat my 2x Rigor II's, 1x flare , my RF TP and my 3% Exploradius/velocity when it comes down to dmg application on cruisers? Well, I do 1/5 th of my volleydmg against sansha elite-cruisers, and 1/3 against non-elite cruisers. I can't hit angel BS's for full dmg with fury's either... Stop posting faked facts please.

The whole problem with the Golem is infact the dmg application from torps/cruise missiles. It's just ****** as hell. Dmg range is hilarious too (hi@42km without T2, lol). Either buff torps directly, or give a usefull bonus to dmg application to the Golem instead.



Your post is unclear. Are you using torps? Do you know how much more of the dmg lands with a cruise v.s. a torp? Cause your quoting part of a convo talking about an RS fit with cruise and most golems use torps which seems to be what you are talking about.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#64 - 2012-02-07 21:54:41 UTC
Tekashi Kovacs wrote:
James Morgan wrote:
running AB and shield booster alongwith NOS ( yes the NOS really helps in cap).


Last time I was trying NOS in pve was 3 years ago and it didnt work on mobs. Have they changed anything since then?


Yes they have changed a good amount.
They use to be junk for missions and they work now.
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
#65 - 2012-02-07 22:04:38 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
Hans Momaki wrote:
Ireland VonVicious wrote:


Also the 800 is from no implants. I pull 832 with my implants and have 2 implants that effect explosion radius and speed to allow for close to full dps on cruisers without switching missles.



So, basically your two imps beat my 2x Rigor II's, 1x flare , my RF TP and my 3% Exploradius/velocity when it comes down to dmg application on cruisers? Well, I do 1/5 th of my volleydmg against sansha elite-cruisers, and 1/3 against non-elite cruisers. I can't hit angel BS's for full dmg with fury's either... Stop posting faked facts please.

The whole problem with the Golem is infact the dmg application from torps/cruise missiles. It's just ****** as hell. Dmg range is hilarious too (hi@42km without T2, lol). Either buff torps directly, or give a usefull bonus to dmg application to the Golem instead.



Your post is unclear. Are you using torps?


No he's not.
Tari Tari
#66 - 2012-02-07 22:17:56 UTC
Just thought someone should be the devil's advocate here without going full-****** *ahem*

Perks of the golem (Bold are the ones nobody has mentioned yet):

  • Immune to tracking disruption
  • Pure damage selection, no natural enemies other than jamming wich all marauders struggle with
  • Highest volley damage outside of artillery
  • Can fit a full tank and still have room for three target painters (most have been harping on this as a disadvantage but it is both)


Drawbacks of the golem:

  • Cycling up to three target painters is more work than most any other ship requires
  • [ASSUMING TORP FIT]Projection of damage is incredibly low, arguably low enough to make it not viable without t2 ammo [ASSUMING TORP FIT]
  • [ASSUMING CRUISE FIT]Damage is incredibly low, arguable low enough to make it eclipsed by the CNR which costs less in isk and sp [ASSUMING CRUISE FIT]


Overall Judgement:

  • Torp fit appears to have the most curb appeal with the ability to, under ideal conditions and with good TP skill, apply good volley damage to large targets at close range regardless of rat type. However, fitting it like this reduces it's universal prowess to a great degree because of torp range primarily. This fitting style is a small niche solution, something a dedicated carebear has packed away in his favorite hub for the half a dozen or so missions where it can be truely amazing (see the Damsel example in OP) and uniquely suited to the task.
  • Cruise fit appears to have absolutely no curb appeal as it is essentially a CNR that uses less ammo, but also applies fewer dps and is much more susceptible to jamming. However, a cruise fit escapes the need to utilize three target painters (assuming my math isn't ****, which might be the case) and frees up a mid for a prop module/ECCM which helps get it more universal use. This fitting style is a broad but slightly inefficient solution, something a dedicated caldari missile launcher trained player could appreciate, but is not uniquely suited to any one task.


If I had to fly this ship into missions today, I would probably cruise fit it and accept the fact it was a weakish CNR with a couple extra perks. In lieu of having alternative ships for most missions a torp fit will simply waste too much time reloading, burning into range, and cycling painters for optimal damage. I agree the proposed solutions should deal with the weapon system and not the ship itself. It is hard to argue the golem is bad. It is simply carrying around weapons that are years behind the times.
Decon Krueger
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#67 - 2012-02-07 23:46:46 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
Decon Krueger wrote:
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
When Golem was considered the king of L4's the rattlesnake out preformed it.

When the Vargur was considered king of L4's the rattlesnake out preformed it.

Now that the mach is considered king of L4's the rattlesnake out preforms it.

Why is the rattlesnake not every considered the top L4 ship?
Because people spend time on guns for pvp and not on drone/missles.
As long as 3/4's of the players avoid heavy/sentry drones and those who do like drones stick with guns it will stay this way.

RS: Over 800 landible dps at very long range. Omni tank all L4's. Can run this way with a mwd for max speed and a nos to keep cap going even in missions that neut. Survives D/C's. Never waste a volley due to drones. Can pick dmg type.


Are you trolling? My mach does nearly 1400 DPS w/drones and 1250ish with guns alone. No way a rattlesnake is faster at mission running than a well fitted/skilled Mach.



Your mach may max out dmg at 1400 but it doesn't do 1400.

The rattlesnake lands it all and does it much sooner.

Start with your drones they have flight time the sentries in the snake do not. Flight time is a good 1/3 of the time in a real encounter.
Your 250 drone dps just droped to 167 dps.

The missles on the snake go the full 92km that it can target. It will kill half of the npc's before the mach is even near opt range.

Gun dps is not near max on the smaller ships. The snake is hitting with drones for full dps and using the missles to soften up bigger targets only and letting the drones finish them up. ((can even use persions on the frigate missions other people skip)) Even at 90% landible dps on your guns that 1250 just dropped another 120.
Half of the last shots volley is wasted on average with gun/missle only ships. If it takes 5 shots to kill a bs you lose 10% more of your dps on average.

Missles and drones keep firing when being jammed guns don't. (( it's rare but it will still bring down the gun average ))
5/8ths of the RS dps is drones which don't lose dps from reload times.
The missles can use all 4 dmg types at max dps instead of 3 of 4.

The RS I am talking about does this without switching hardners for each mission. It's omni tanked. Time is isk.
RS will handle bonus rooms just by throwing in defenders until dps from ships drops off. Also can handle killing all ships in missions that neut that are normally grab and run. ((More isk without going back to station to grab more missions, for those not chasing LP))

All that and it's harder to gank.

So yes I'm being serious and no I'm not trolling.
When it comes to dps that a missle/drone boat puts out compared to a gun boat it's apples and oranges.

If you take the time to train and test/time them you will see that the RS is on par if not better then a mach for L4's.


You are truly mistaken and misinformed. The missiles that you are using have a flight time to reach said target while my guns will instant hit and 90% of the time instant pop frigs. If I swap to barrage ammo the range on the mach is over 100km, well over targeting range and the falloff with other ammo types is around 78km give or take a couple KM. So for 90% of the missions I have the same range as your RS and apply my damage much faster, I also lock on to targets faster. Oh and my high sensor strength means I am very rarely jammed.

You have to go back to each base to get a new mission anyhow, I do not see the point in taking an extra 10 seconds to swap out hardners while in station for specific missions, omni-tanking is just being lazy and a bigger gank target. Also my Mach has over 100k EHP in incursion role which I sometimes do missions with and a tad over 50k EHP with the regular PVE-boost mode, it also has less shiny's than your RS which makes it much less desirable to gank.

You also forget to point out that your own drones have travel times to reach said targets so out of your 800 DPS, how much of it is actually applied? Oh and the RS is slow as balls.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#68 - 2012-02-08 03:32:59 UTC
Decon Krueger wrote:
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
Decon Krueger wrote:
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
When Golem was considered the king of L4's the rattlesnake out preformed it.

When the Vargur was considered king of L4's the rattlesnake out preformed it.

Now that the mach is considered king of L4's the rattlesnake out preforms it.

Why is the rattlesnake not every considered the top L4 ship?
Because people spend time on guns for pvp and not on drone/missles.
As long as 3/4's of the players avoid heavy/sentry drones and those who do like drones stick with guns it will stay this way.

RS: Over 800 landible dps at very long range. Omni tank all L4's. Can run this way with a mwd for max speed and a nos to keep cap going even in missions that neut. Survives D/C's. Never waste a volley due to drones. Can pick dmg type.


Are you trolling? My mach does nearly 1400 DPS w/drones and 1250ish with guns alone. No way a rattlesnake is faster at mission running than a well fitted/skilled Mach.



Your mach may max out dmg at 1400 but it doesn't do 1400.

The rattlesnake lands it all and does it much sooner.

Start with your drones they have flight time the sentries in the snake do not. Flight time is a good 1/3 of the time in a real encounter.
Your 250 drone dps just droped to 167 dps.

The missles on the snake go the full 92km that it can target. It will kill half of the npc's before the mach is even near opt range.

Gun dps is not near max on the smaller ships. The snake is hitting with drones for full dps and using the missles to soften up bigger targets only and letting the drones finish them up. ((can even use persions on the frigate missions other people skip)) Even at 90% landible dps on your guns that 1250 just dropped another 120.
Half of the last shots volley is wasted on average with gun/missle only ships. If it takes 5 shots to kill a bs you lose 10% more of your dps on average.

Missles and drones keep firing when being jammed guns don't. (( it's rare but it will still bring down the gun average ))
5/8ths of the RS dps is drones which don't lose dps from reload times.
The missles can use all 4 dmg types at max dps instead of 3 of 4.

The RS I am talking about does this without switching hardners for each mission. It's omni tanked. Time is isk.
RS will handle bonus rooms just by throwing in defenders until dps from ships drops off. Also can handle killing all ships in missions that neut that are normally grab and run. ((More isk without going back to station to grab more missions, for those not chasing LP))

All that and it's harder to gank.

So yes I'm being serious and no I'm not trolling.
When it comes to dps that a missle/drone boat puts out compared to a gun boat it's apples and oranges.

If you take the time to train and test/time them you will see that the RS is on par if not better then a mach for L4's.


You are truly mistaken and misinformed. The missiles that you are using have a flight time to reach said target while my guns will instant hit and 90% of the time instant pop frigs. If I swap to barrage ammo the range on the mach is over 100km, well over targeting range and the falloff with other ammo types is around 78km give or take a couple KM. So for 90% of the missions I have the same range as your RS and apply my damage much faster, I also lock on to targets faster. Oh and my high sensor strength means I am very rarely jammed.

You have to go back to each base to get a new mission anyhow, I do not see the point in taking an extra 10 seconds to swap out hardners while in station for specific missions, omni-tanking is just being lazy and a bigger gank target. Also my Mach has over 100k EHP in incursion role which I sometimes do missions with and a tad over 50k EHP with the regular PVE-boost mode, it also has less shiny's than your RS which makes it much less desirable to gank.

You also forget to point out that your own drones have travel times to reach said targets so out of your 800 DPS, how much of it is actually applied? Oh and the RS is slow as balls.


A large amount of what your talking about if not all of it is very wrong.

Please move this convo to link I posted so OP can get back to golem talk or talk with me in game.

Flight time does not effect RS like it will other missle ships due to drones.
RS has more sensor streangth and can fire while being jammed.
Your 100km range is not anywhere near your stated dps. The rattlesnakes missles do not lose dps at that range.
Take your 10 extra sec in station to switch up. Just make sure you add that time to your isk per hour ratio. May only make you 1% slower but that is 1% you need to add in. Just like being jammed might bring down mission averages by 2-3% even though only some missions do it, they do it big enough to waste a huge % of that one mission.
Health to isk ratio needed in order to gank is no different if something cost 1.5 bil with 50k ehp compared to 3bil with 100k ehp.

Sentries have no flight time. The RS doesn't move during fight since it's a sentry ship. Only with mwd on way to gates/items after most/all npc's are all ready dead. So your slow arguement is mute.

I suggest you learn to use a drone boat before comparing drone/missles with guns.
OfBalance
Caldari State
#69 - 2012-02-08 05:19:29 UTC
Holy massive de-railment batman.
Karlax
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2012-02-08 06:14:48 UTC
I can only agree with most, if not all the problems the OP has listed.

Torpedoes are so restrictive in fittings, slowness, ammo cycles, you name it. Still people want to use them because torpedoes sound so damn cool to use in missions and I can't agree more. People will go through big sacrifices to get their rigs, implants and fittings just to be able to fire that torp passed the 60KM range mark.

But in fact, all the micro management with target painters and all sacrifices you had to do to have a decent range is just making all that fun go away once you start using it.

And then if you convince yourself to try a Mach or Vargur, your Golem will definitely start collecting dust.


With that said, torpedoes could use some loving.
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#71 - 2012-02-08 06:42:33 UTC
As one who use to mission with his alt I gotta say that the Golem does seem "meh" for the amount of effort and skillpoints that you put into it. Torpedoes are very slow, it takes several seconds to reach the target and if you have a target orbiting you at a fast speed 7 km within your max range (38k, 59k), your torps will not hit it. The ranges of torpedoes are much lower than actually indicated due to the fact that missiles have to acceleration and torpedoes accelerate very slowly.

Not to mention you have to constantly manage numerous target painters that have a long cycle time.

There is also the annoyance of low ammo capacity and the fact that you have to constantly change from faction to javelin, wasting time that you could use to shoot.

Marauders came prenerfed to prevent them from becoming OP, but with pirate battleships and noctis around, marauders are simply second rate.

All the Marauders could use some love.
Hans Momaki
State War Academy
Caldari State
#72 - 2012-02-08 07:16:31 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
Hans Momaki wrote:
Ireland VonVicious wrote:


Also the 800 is from no implants. I pull 832 with my implants and have 2 implants that effect explosion radius and speed to allow for close to full dps on cruisers without switching missles.



So, basically your two imps beat my 2x Rigor II's, 1x flare , my RF TP and my 3% Exploradius/velocity when it comes down to dmg application on cruisers? Well, I do 1/5 th of my volleydmg against sansha elite-cruisers, and 1/3 against non-elite cruisers. I can't hit angel BS's for full dmg with fury's either... Stop posting faked facts please.

The whole problem with the Golem is infact the dmg application from torps/cruise missiles. It's just ****** as hell. Dmg range is hilarious too (hi@42km without T2, lol). Either buff torps directly, or give a usefull bonus to dmg application to the Golem instead.



Your post is unclear. Are you using torps? Do you know how much more of the dmg lands with a cruise v.s. a torp? Cause your quoting part of a convo talking about an RS fit with cruise and most golems use torps which seems to be what you are talking about.


Lol. Rigors/flares for torps? Not sure if serious. I'm obviously talking about cruise missiles..
Your RS with Fury cruise will never hit a cruisersized ship with more then half dmg unless it is sitting at 0 m/s (which is not exactly common).
Keras Authion
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#73 - 2012-02-08 14:31:56 UTC
I can't believe no one has yet mentioned the NPC defender missiles in the debate of cruise vs torp golem.

One defender can destroy a cruise missile but not a torpedo. A CNR has 7 launchers and 25% bonus to rof totaling 8.75 effective launchers. Golem has 4 launchers with 2x bonus totaling 8 effective launchers. Of course the golem has also the bonuses for better damage application and more room for target painters but if you you lose one missile to defenders the golem has 6 launchers worth of damage while the CNR has 7.5. Vs battlecruisers there is no way that target painting can improve the damage that much (and I'm sceptical about cruisers too) so you're better off with torps that can take the defender. Mind you that quite a few NPCs do like their defenders.

This post was rated "C" for capsuleer.
Gavin DeVries
JDI Industries
#74 - 2012-02-08 16:45:05 UTC
Tekashi Kovacs wrote:
James Morgan wrote:
running AB and shield booster alongwith NOS ( yes the NOS really helps in cap).


Last time I was trying NOS in pve was 3 years ago and it didnt work on mobs. Have they changed anything since then?


They do work, but each NPC has a set amount you can leech from them, and once it's used up you don't get any more. I used a heavy nos when I first reached level 4 missions, but abandoned it later.

PVP is a question with no single right answer, but a lot of wrong ones.
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
#75 - 2012-02-08 17:06:04 UTC
Tari Tari wrote:

  • Immune to tracking disruption


Unfortunately, any NPCs that use tracking disruption will also be shooting right into the Golems EM resist hole.

Tari Tari wrote:
  • Pure damage selection, no natural enemies other than jamming wich all marauders struggle with

Blood Raiders and Sanshas are a bit of a pain due to the Golems EM resist hole. Oh, yeah, and defender missiles will ruin your DPS if using cruise missiles.

Tari Tari wrote:

  • Highest volley damage outside of artillery


That's actually a drawback in PvE since overkill will reduce your actual DPS.
Versuvius Marii
Browncoats of Persephone
Ironworks Coalition
#76 - 2012-02-08 18:16:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Versuvius Marii
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Ireland VonVicious,
Can you create a separate thread for your Rattlesnake setup so the community can give it a proper discussion/critique? The fit is interesting in that pumps out DPS while still managing to keep the passive tank that the Rattlesnake is famous for, but it's not really relevant to this discussion in that a technical debate about its applied DPS and whatnot will derail this thread unnecessarily.





here is the link:

http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/58826-Rattlesnake-Drone-L4-champ.html

Consider it done.

How about a thread on the eve-o forums? Everyone knows BC is populated by elitists who are baffled by open-minded possibilities within a sandbox game.

People really need to stop feeding the troll.

The Gaming MoD - retro to modern, console to MMO, I blog about it if it's a game and I'm interested in it. Yes, I play games other than Eve and I don't care if you think I'm wrong.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#77 - 2012-02-08 19:12:03 UTC
Versuvius Marii wrote:
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Ireland VonVicious,
Can you create a separate thread for your Rattlesnake setup so the community can give it a proper discussion/critique? The fit is interesting in that pumps out DPS while still managing to keep the passive tank that the Rattlesnake is famous for, but it's not really relevant to this discussion in that a technical debate about its applied DPS and whatnot will derail this thread unnecessarily.





here is the link:

http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/58826-Rattlesnake-Drone-L4-champ.html

Consider it done.

How about a thread on the eve-o forums? Everyone knows BC is populated by elitists who are baffled by open-minded possibilities within a sandbox game.

People really need to stop feeding the troll.



Just something to look at and yes I think the guys who mod BC are just a bunch of trolls.
Not sure I'd call them elitist just guys who only understand just enough to give bad advice. (( unless the fit is pure gun dps ))
OfBalance
Caldari State
#78 - 2012-02-08 19:54:08 UTC
Back on track: I concur with Exploited Engineer that cruise missile golem looses too much dps to defenders. And that is on top of the fact it's cruse dps is pretty sad to begin with. The only viable way to fly the golem really is torps, hence the other problems.
Gavin DeVries
JDI Industries
#79 - 2012-02-08 22:26:47 UTC
Honestly, the reason I stopped flying the Golem (and trained for the Vargur in the first place) was to cut down on the number of ships. When I used the Golem, the ship choice went like this:

1- Any mission where a specific ship seems perfect (Vaga for Recon 2/3, for example), use that.
2- Fighting Guristas? Use Tengu with ECCM.
3- Very long range mission or mainly small ships? Use CNR.
4- Anything else? Use Golem.

I was spending more time in the other boats than the Golem.

PVP is a question with no single right answer, but a lot of wrong ones.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#80 - 2012-02-08 22:31:32 UTC
Gavin DeVries wrote:
Honestly, the reason I stopped flying the Golem (and trained for the Vargur in the first place) was to cut down on the number of ships. When I used the Golem, the ship choice went like this:

1- Any mission where a specific ship seems perfect (Vaga for Recon 2/3, for example), use that.
2- Fighting Guristas? Use Tengu with ECCM.
3- Very long range mission or mainly small ships? Use CNR.
4- Anything else? Use Golem.

I was spending more time in the other boats than the Golem.


That is exactly why I pointed out a RS. Just fly.