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The Golem - The "Meh" of Marauders

Author
KLizMaN
Stark Innovations
#41 - 2012-02-05 22:22:11 UTC
Amarrrrrrddduuuudddeee wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
1) Limited Range - 40km for Faction/T1 torps and 60km for Javelin torps. 60km just isn't enough for a mission runner.

I get 72.8 km on a Golem, so about 70 km effective. ...


What is your fit/implants to hit out that far???



I'd say his numbers are wrong. 60km is the max you'll get.

Having a Marauder that's 100% reliant on T2 ammo is pretty much fail especially when your missioning in areas where T2 ammo isn't in abundance. No other lvl4 BS/Marauder needs T2 ammo to function.

Allyia Base
Doomheim
#42 - 2012-02-06 05:16:06 UTC
Funny, i've been saying this for year or I had been until I quit a while back. Torps on bombers works out great, everywhere else it's varying degrees of not-so-good. I always felt the golem highlighted this problem by becoming the insane target-painter juggling behemoth that it is today. Caldari and missile launchers in general have a lot of these issues dragging them down.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#43 - 2012-02-06 09:04:06 UTC
KLizMaN wrote:
Amarrrrrrddduuuudddeee wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
1) Limited Range - 40km for Faction/T1 torps and 60km for Javelin torps. 60km just isn't enough for a mission runner.

I get 72.8 km on a Golem, so about 70 km effective. ...
What is your fit/implants to hit out that far???
I'd say his numbers are wrong. 60km is the max you'll get.

Having a Marauder that's 100% reliant on T2 ammo is pretty much fail especially when your missioning in areas where T2 ammo isn't in abundance. No other lvl4 BS/Marauder needs T2 ammo to function.

Odd. EFT shows 69.5 km now. No idea why it showed 72.8 km previously.

Slot 7 - Zainou 'Deadeye' ZML1100
Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Large Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II

The cheaper ZML1000 gets 68.9 km.
Arazel Chainfire
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2012-02-06 13:40:46 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Arazel Chainfire wrote:
Aoki Ayumi wrote:
Agree, and I thinck Golem should be buffed in some way. Needing T2 torpedoes to "reach something" is ridiculous, and happens in no other ship.

C'mon... 45 km max and 65 with expensive rigs and maxed skills? Are you mad?
Why all this hate to Golem users?


45km actually isn't that bad for a shortrange ship. It is more than a blaster rohk will get, and about the effective range of a pulse abaddon or an AC maelstrom.


AC Maelstrom is an awesome ship for its price tag, but even going all faction mods and having implants (I have multiple of them with multiple L4 Minmatar pilots) it won't deal sensible damage past 32-ish km. It will still kill frigates and cruisers but the range of effective damage is at about a maximum of 25km. Past that, killing battleships becomes a tedium.



Hate to say this... but you do HAVE to switch to barrage. A maelstrom with barrage loaded and 3 TE/TC's gets an optimal of 8.5+69, meaning it does 80% of its dps at 43.5km. Before you say anything about the golem hitting at 45km using t1 ammo, note that the abaddon ALSO has to switch to t2 ammo (scorch) to hit 45km, and if you were for some reason to boost its optimal as much as possible multifrequency's range only hits 21+19km. So with pure t1 ammo loaded, the golem still does the most dps out to its maximum range, and when sticking t2 ammo in still does more dps out to its maximum range. Of course, applying the dps is a different story, and there is how the other gunboats still do SOME damage in falloff, but I think we have already covered that earlier in this argument.

Ireland VonVicious wrote:
When Golem was considered the king of L4's the rattlesnake out preformed it.

When the Vargur was considered king of L4's the rattlesnake out preformed it.

Now that the mach is considered king of L4's the rattlesnake out preforms it.

Why is the rattlesnake not every considered the top L4 ship?
Because people spend time on guns for pvp and not on drone/missles.
As long as 3/4's of the players avoid heavy/sentry drones and those who do like drones stick with guns it will stay this way.

RS: Over 800 landible dps at very long range. Omni tank all L4's. Can run this way with a mwd for max speed and a nos to keep cap going even in missions that neut. Survives D/C's. Never waste a volley due to drones. Can pick dmg type.


I don't know WHAT you are smoking, but apparently it is really, really good. Now, 800dps at long range sounds nice. Until you actually look at that fit you posted. To hit 800dps, you have to have fury cruise missiles loaded. Which means that except against guristas, you are never hitting for full damage with the cruise missiles. Then you are looking at how excessively EXPENSIVE that fit is. How much isk did you dump down the drain for that? The CN BCU's were hitting close to 100mil apiece last time I looked at them (admittedly, a few months ago, but still), the CN invulns are what? 400mil a pop? Has that price gone down significantly yet? The MWD runs for another 400ish mil, and I have no clue about the NOS. Plus you have t2 purger rigs on it.

Now, lets compare that to some of the other ships being mentioned.

The Golem:
with pure t2 fit, torps will hit 787 torp dps at 60km, 1005 with CN torps. Thats without counting drone DPS. It does have problems applying that dps, so I'll call that one a wash (except to AGAIN note that is a pure T2 fit, there is plenty of room for improvement with faction/etc.)

The Vargur:
With pure t2 fit, using EMP L it does 763 gun dps. 700 with barrage. 980 with hail. And you still have the drones to add to the dps figures. 80% dps is applied at 45km, (60 w/ barrage), meaning that at the optimal of all batteships in lvl 4's, its still doing 610dps w/ EMP, 784 w/ hail, and 560 w/ barrage. So when you load hail, before counting drones or faction equipment, it is almost matching the dps at range of your rattlesnake. While you can still move closer to targets to apply more dps, or add faction/complex gear to apply more dps, or just count the drones for more dps.

The Mach:
Its the vargur, but better - I don't have time to go into detail

-Arazel
stoicfaux
#45 - 2012-02-06 14:37:56 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:

Odd. EFT shows 69.5 km now. No idea why it showed 72.8 km previously.

Slot 7 - Zainou 'Deadeye' ZML1100
Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Large Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II

The cheaper ZML1000 gets 68.9 km.

EFT simply shows flight time x missile speed which isn't accurate due to missiles needing time to accelerate. Look for "TRUE Missile Range" in the list of formulas: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1309024

pyfa does list the effective missile range. So you get 42.7 / 64.1km with ZML1000 and T1 / javelin torps or 43.1/64.7km with ZML1100 (ignoring the 400-500M isk price tag on the ZML1100.)

By comparison, 2xLarge Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II + ZML1000 nets you 41.2 / 61.8km of range. The (slight) advantage to 2xspeed rigs is that it keeps flight time to 9 seconds which is less than TP duration (which helps a bit with the TP juggling.)

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Decon Krueger
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#46 - 2012-02-06 19:50:57 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
When Golem was considered the king of L4's the rattlesnake out preformed it.

When the Vargur was considered king of L4's the rattlesnake out preformed it.

Now that the mach is considered king of L4's the rattlesnake out preforms it.

Why is the rattlesnake not every considered the top L4 ship?
Because people spend time on guns for pvp and not on drone/missles.
As long as 3/4's of the players avoid heavy/sentry drones and those who do like drones stick with guns it will stay this way.

RS: Over 800 landible dps at very long range. Omni tank all L4's. Can run this way with a mwd for max speed and a nos to keep cap going even in missions that neut. Survives D/C's. Never waste a volley due to drones. Can pick dmg type.


Are you trolling? My mach does nearly 1400 DPS w/drones and 1250ish with guns alone. No way a rattlesnake is faster at mission running than a well fitted/skilled Mach.
Sunviking
Doomheim
#47 - 2012-02-06 20:35:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Sunviking
What alot of people do not realise about the Golem is that the delay it takes for your volley to actually hit your target.

From my experience it takes on average 7 seconds for your Torp volley to hit your target, which is a HUGE handicap compared to the other Marauders. Especially when the other Marauders, being Gun Boats, hit for instant damage. And, in the time it takes for the first torpedo to hit the target, the other Marauders have already got off their 2nd volley. Big disadvantage.

I've said it once and I will say it again, Torpedoes need a huge range boost, at least 50%. It's already painful enough having to fit 3 Target Painters to actually do any meaningful damage, even against Battleships, without the damage delay and the poor range versus HAMs. How can it be right that HAMs, a cruiser-class weapon, have the same range as a battleship-class weapon? Do Heavy Pulse Lasers have the same range as Mega Pulse Lasers?...
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#48 - 2012-02-07 03:34:53 UTC
Decon Krueger wrote:
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
When Golem was considered the king of L4's the rattlesnake out preformed it.

When the Vargur was considered king of L4's the rattlesnake out preformed it.

Now that the mach is considered king of L4's the rattlesnake out preforms it.

Why is the rattlesnake not every considered the top L4 ship?
Because people spend time on guns for pvp and not on drone/missles.
As long as 3/4's of the players avoid heavy/sentry drones and those who do like drones stick with guns it will stay this way.

RS: Over 800 landible dps at very long range. Omni tank all L4's. Can run this way with a mwd for max speed and a nos to keep cap going even in missions that neut. Survives D/C's. Never waste a volley due to drones. Can pick dmg type.


Are you trolling? My mach does nearly 1400 DPS w/drones and 1250ish with guns alone. No way a rattlesnake is faster at mission running than a well fitted/skilled Mach.



Your mach may max out dmg at 1400 but it doesn't do 1400.

The rattlesnake lands it all and does it much sooner.

Start with your drones they have flight time the sentries in the snake do not. Flight time is a good 1/3 of the time in a real encounter.
Your 250 drone dps just droped to 167 dps.

The missles on the snake go the full 92km that it can target. It will kill half of the npc's before the mach is even near opt range.

Gun dps is not near max on the smaller ships. The snake is hitting with drones for full dps and using the missles to soften up bigger targets only and letting the drones finish them up. ((can even use persions on the frigate missions other people skip)) Even at 90% landible dps on your guns that 1250 just dropped another 120.
Half of the last shots volley is wasted on average with gun/missle only ships. If it takes 5 shots to kill a bs you lose 10% more of your dps on average.

Missles and drones keep firing when being jammed guns don't. (( it's rare but it will still bring down the gun average ))
5/8ths of the RS dps is drones which don't lose dps from reload times.
The missles can use all 4 dmg types at max dps instead of 3 of 4.

The RS I am talking about does this without switching hardners for each mission. It's omni tanked. Time is isk.
RS will handle bonus rooms just by throwing in defenders until dps from ships drops off. Also can handle killing all ships in missions that neut that are normally grab and run. ((More isk without going back to station to grab more missions, for those not chasing LP))

All that and it's harder to gank.

So yes I'm being serious and no I'm not trolling.
When it comes to dps that a missle/drone boat puts out compared to a gun boat it's apples and oranges.

If you take the time to train and test/time them you will see that the RS is on par if not better then a mach for L4's.
Spineker
#49 - 2012-02-07 04:23:41 UTC
Without Javeline you could not finish many missions which is the suck. Reloading to kill close in BS's and then Changing for killing 45+ (Gurista anyone?) is just annoying. The gimping of the Torp range was a bad change from the start. That happened years ago? Don't remember 2008 or something
Allyia Base
Doomheim
#50 - 2012-02-07 04:38:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Allyia Base
Ireland VonVicious wrote:

Start with your drones they have flight time the sentries in the snake do not. Flight time is a good 1/3 of the time in a real encounter.
Your 250 drone dps just droped to 167 dps.

The missles on the snake go the full 92km that it can target. It will kill half of the npc's before the mach is even near opt range.

Gun dps is not near max on the smaller ships. The snake is hitting with drones for full dps and using the missles to soften up bigger targets only and letting the drones finish them up. ((can even use persions on the frigate missions other people skip)) Even at 90% landible dps on your guns that 1250 just dropped another 120.
Half of the last shots volley is wasted on average with gun/missle only ships. If it takes 5 shots to kill a bs you lose 10% more of your dps on average.

Missles and drones keep firing when being jammed guns don't. (( it's rare but it will still bring down the gun average ))
5/8ths of the RS dps is drones which don't lose dps from reload times.
The missles can use all 4 dmg types at max dps instead of 3 of 4.

The RS I am talking about does this without switching hardners for each mission. It's omni tanked. Time is isk.
RS will handle bonus rooms just by throwing in defenders until dps from ships drops off. Also can handle killing all ships in missions that neut that are normally grab and run. ((More isk without going back to station to grab more missions, for those not chasing LP))

All that and it's harder to gank.

So yes I'm being serious and no I'm not trolling.
When it comes to dps that a missle/drone boat puts out compared to a gun boat it's apples and oranges.

If you take the time to train and test/time them you will see that the RS is on par if not better then a mach for L4's.


You're going to have to re-deploy drones and change missile types to actually apply anywhere near full damage on anything. You're knocking falloff as some kind of huge problem, yet you've apparently missed the fact cruise missiles apply even less than falloff'd turrets unless you're packing a lot of painters (your fit has none and you're assuming RAGE cruise numbers to boot). You spend that much on any other ship and I assure you it will omnitank any mission aswell. Jamming is a joke for any ship pilot competent enough to slot an eccm for the 3-4 mission total where it is an issue.

The one strength of your rattlesnake is that nobody bothers ganking them, but assuming more people get wind of that bat-****-insane fit you've been posting here that might change.

The rattlesnake is not terrible, but making it out to be some kind of untested uber-ship is a bit rich, and your fit is actually much worse than a good, active tanked, snake.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#51 - 2012-02-07 05:25:15 UTC
Spineker wrote:
Without Javeline you could not finish many missions which is the suck. Reloading to kill close in BS's and then Changing for killing 45+ (Gurista anyone?) is just annoying. The gimping of the Torp range was a bad change from the start. That happened years ago? Don't remember 2008 or something



It's using cruise missles not torps. They shoot to the max targeting range of ship: 92km
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#52 - 2012-02-07 05:39:40 UTC
Allyia Base wrote:
Ireland VonVicious wrote:

Start with your drones they have flight time the sentries in the snake do not. Flight time is a good 1/3 of the time in a real encounter.
Your 250 drone dps just droped to 167 dps.

The missles on the snake go the full 92km that it can target. It will kill half of the npc's before the mach is even near opt range.

Gun dps is not near max on the smaller ships. The snake is hitting with drones for full dps and using the missles to soften up bigger targets only and letting the drones finish them up. ((can even use persions on the frigate missions other people skip)) Even at 90% landible dps on your guns that 1250 just dropped another 120.
Half of the last shots volley is wasted on average with gun/missle only ships. If it takes 5 shots to kill a bs you lose 10% more of your dps on average.

Missles and drones keep firing when being jammed guns don't. (( it's rare but it will still bring down the gun average ))
5/8ths of the RS dps is drones which don't lose dps from reload times.
The missles can use all 4 dmg types at max dps instead of 3 of 4.

The RS I am talking about does this without switching hardners for each mission. It's omni tanked. Time is isk.
RS will handle bonus rooms just by throwing in defenders until dps from ships drops off. Also can handle killing all ships in missions that neut that are normally grab and run. ((More isk without going back to station to grab more missions, for those not chasing LP))

All that and it's harder to gank.

So yes I'm being serious and no I'm not trolling.
When it comes to dps that a missle/drone boat puts out compared to a gun boat it's apples and oranges.

If you take the time to train and test/time them you will see that the RS is on par if not better then a mach for L4's.


You're going to have to re-deploy drones and change missile types to actually apply anywhere near full damage on anything. You're knocking falloff as some kind of huge problem, yet you've apparently missed the fact cruise missiles apply even less than falloff'd turrets unless you're packing a lot of painters (your fit has none and you're assuming RAGE cruise numbers to boot). You spend that much on any other ship and I assure you it will omnitank any mission aswell. Jamming is a joke for any ship pilot competent enough to slot an eccm for the 3-4 mission total where it is an issue.

The one strength of your rattlesnake is that nobody bothers ganking them, but assuming more people get wind of that bat-****-insane fit you've been posting here that might change.

The rattlesnake is not terrible, but making it out to be some kind of untested uber-ship is a bit rich, and your fit is actually much worse than a good, active tanked, snake.



The change missle types and drones does not happen. You know the type of mission you are going into and you only apply the one set of drones that apply to that mission type. Your missles are loaded before the mission and between rooms since most dps is drones and your not wasting vollies.

Cruise missles will apply full damage to large ships. (( they are only worse then falloff/tracking with smaller ships for the most part atleast when using rage, nice to have the option to drop to can hit anything ammo which guns won't do, and a little dps is better then none )) They don't need to attack the small ships since the drones are popping them all. That is the big benifit of all drone boats. That is why thier max dps looks a bit lower then all other ships.
I use 2 implants to improve the missles further. Less explosion radius and faster explosion speed. These allow them to be decently effective even on cruisers without switching down to precision on the rare chance they are even needed.

Yes you can use a eccm for just this mission or that mission but this ship doesn't need it. RS already is hardest bs to jam. It's still not as good as having an eccm but why bother when your drones keep firing away even while your jamed. Just use f.o.f's till you clear up the jammers and your dps drop is very little.

By omni tank I mean you never change the fit. Ever. You buy it, fit it, and forget it. Don't bring extra pieces for this or that kind of mission just play.

If you really hate the rage missles you can always pay for faciton missles.
They are cheap for this ship since it only use 4 per volley but I do recommend using faction launchers if you do that.
Allyia Base
Doomheim
#53 - 2012-02-07 06:30:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Allyia Base
Ireland VonVicious wrote:

The change missle types and drones does not happen. You know the type of mission you are going into and you only apply the one set of drones that apply to that mission type. Your missles are loaded before the mission and between rooms since most dps is drones and your not wasting vollies.

Cruise missles will apply full damage to large ships. (( they are only worse then falloff/tracking with smaller ships for the most part atleast when using rage, nice to have the option to drop to can hit anything ammo which guns won't do, and a little dps is better then none )) They don't need to attack the small ships since the drones are popping them all. That is the big benifit of all drone boats. That is why thier max dps looks a bit lower then all other ships.
I use 2 implants to improve the missles further. Less explosion radius and faster explosion speed. These allow them to be decently effective even on cruisers without switching down to precision on the rare chance they are even needed.

Yes you can use a eccm for just this mission or that mission but this ship doesn't need it. RS already is hardest bs to jam. It's still not as good as having an eccm but why bother when your drones keep firing away even while your jamed. Just use f.o.f's till you clear up the jammers and your dps drop is very little.

By omni tank I mean you never change the fit. Ever. You buy it, fit it, and forget it. Don't bring extra pieces for this or that kind of mission just play.

If you really hate the rage missles you can always pay for faciton missles.
They are cheap for this ship since it only use 4 per volley but I do recommend using faction launchers if you do that.


If you don't change drones, at the very least, your drone won't have range on much. I assume you will be using gardes most of the time, as that's required to meat the dps benchmark you touted earlier. Rage cruise missiles will not apply full damage to anything with a sig smaller that an especially fat gurista bs and even then you might be cutting it close. Not being jammed is ofcourse, better than loading FoFs where you completely loose target selection and begin to waste cruise missile volleys on frigates.

You still seem to be missing out on the basics here. I suggest you look up the missile damage formula and check the optimal of your sentry drones. There's absolutely no question most people under-estimate and fail to use good rattlesnake fits, but I am afraid you're in the wrong fit and off the chart with your claims.
Firebolt145
The Hatchery
#54 - 2012-02-07 11:22:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Firebolt145
Quote:
By omni tank I mean you never change the fit. Ever. You buy it, fit it, and forget it. Don't bring extra pieces for this or that kind of mission just play.

Most I do is change ammo. I never change the fit on my mach. I have 2 omni non-faction invulns and one deadspace shield booster and I am adequately tanked against everything, because I know how to do missions properly.

Also, I never release drones, so let's ignore my drones for the purpose of this comparison. Let us continue to compare your RS (with sentries) with my mach without drones. Without drones my mach with all V's does 1083 eft dps. That only drops below 800dps when the target is further than 48km. These numbers are also without implants, and I suspect your crazy 800 dps etc are all with implants. Whatever.

Quote:
The rattlesnake lands it all and does it much sooner.

No, a good portion of your damage is in your cruise missiles, which take forever to hit. Mach guns are instant.

When I warp into a mission, I insta pop frigs with 1 alpha up to 70km range. I three (occasionally two or four) shot cruisers at 60km range. By this time all the BS are much closer than the 48km threshold where the mach starts doing more dps than your rattlesnake. Your rattlesnake can't do ANY of this. Your cruise missiles (especially furies, lol) are next to useless on most of these ships, so a good chunk of your 'consistent 800 dps' is wasted.

Tracking in missions is close to ignorable since all the rats are flying straight towards you and die before their transversal has a chance to build up.

Your rattlesnake is incredibly slow, even with an MWD on it. You simply cannot compare its speed to a mach.

And lastly, my fit's total cost is about 1.3b including hull. I'm not even going to bother calculating your RS fit's price.

---

A few extra notes: very few missions start with rats further than 80km away. The only one I can think of right now that does this is the Score. Your cruise missiles may be able to hit up to 92km but that's pointless. Additionally, I'll admit I don't know too much about how sentry dps works but I'm pretty sure they don't do full damage up to 90km away, lol.
James Morgan
Pod Republic
#55 - 2012-02-07 13:41:45 UTC
I use Golem, Mach and Paladin(will starting using NM also) as PvE ships and I can say for sure that Mach is the best out of these. In most missions I can generally snipe all frigates with Mach, take full aggro, speed tank while perma running AB and shield booster alongwith NOS ( yes the NOS really helps in cap).

Overall most missions go faster with Mach, Golem can only compete in limited missions. TP juggling, wasted torp volleys and overkill from torps make the golem slower in finishing missions than Mach even though eft says I can do more dps with my golem.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
Mean Coalition
#56 - 2012-02-07 14:41:52 UTC
Well to be fair Scorch also gets used quite a lot on puls setups in pve, I even like conflag a lot.

The OP is actually pretty much on the spot, the golem is the most micro heavy of the marauders(especially hard to play up to max performance if you also try to loot on the fly). I also would agree that the main problem might be more torpedos itself(and TP cycle time) than the golem.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread

Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#57 - 2012-02-07 16:00:54 UTC
Firebolt145 wrote:
Quote:
By omni tank I mean you never change the fit. Ever. You buy it, fit it, and forget it. Don't bring extra pieces for this or that kind of mission just play.

Most I do is change ammo. I never change the fit on my mach. I have 2 omni non-faction invulns and one deadspace shield booster and I am adequately tanked against everything, because I know how to do missions properly.

Also, I never release drones, so let's ignore my drones for the purpose of this comparison. Let us continue to compare your RS (with sentries) with my mach without drones. Without drones my mach with all V's does 1083 eft dps. That only drops below 800dps when the target is further than 48km. These numbers are also without implants, and I suspect your crazy 800 dps etc are all with implants. Whatever.

Quote:
The rattlesnake lands it all and does it much sooner.

No, a good portion of your damage is in your cruise missiles, which take forever to hit. Mach guns are instant.

When I warp into a mission, I insta pop frigs with 1 alpha up to 70km range. I three (occasionally two or four) shot cruisers at 60km range. By this time all the BS are much closer than the 48km threshold where the mach starts doing more dps than your rattlesnake. Your rattlesnake can't do ANY of this. Your cruise missiles (especially furies, lol) are next to useless on most of these ships, so a good chunk of your 'consistent 800 dps' is wasted.

Tracking in missions is close to ignorable since all the rats are flying straight towards you and die before their transversal has a chance to build up.

Your rattlesnake is incredibly slow, even with an MWD on it. You simply cannot compare its speed to a mach.

And lastly, my fit's total cost is about 1.3b including hull. I'm not even going to bother calculating your RS fit's price.

---

A few extra notes: very few missions start with rats further than 80km away. The only one I can think of right now that does this is the Score. Your cruise missiles may be able to hit up to 92km but that's pointless. Additionally, I'll admit I don't know too much about how sentry dps works but I'm pretty sure they don't do full damage up to 90km away, lol.



Sentry dps is just like a gun. Hits when fired no flight time. With the 2 drone omni's the garde opt range is further than the npc's that you use them on. The curators hit at that 90k with em which is the only npc's type that need it. The dps from the sentries lands at 100% on the frigs. Due to the very tacking issue you mentioned. The missles are not used for anything under cruiser and rarely used on them at all.

Tracking will take effect on close npc like those in angle missions for your Mach. It will put out less then opt dps.
Where the mach losses most of it's max dps is in vollies. You lose on average half of your last volley. If the average ship takes you 3 shots in a mission you lost 1/6ths of your dps from that factor alone. (( would bring your landing dmg down to 902 before fall off or tracking are taken into account )) If you are using guns to pop frigs this loss is probly much higher.

Also the 800 is from no implants. I pull 832 with my implants and have 2 implants that effect explosion radius and speed to allow for close to full dps on cruisers without switching missles.

Fit is not all that expensive due to the RS hull costing much less then the Mach.
stoicfaux
#58 - 2012-02-07 16:37:16 UTC
Ireland VonVicious,
Can you create a separate thread for your Rattlesnake setup so the community can give it a proper discussion/critique? The fit is interesting in that pumps out DPS while still managing to keep the passive tank that the Rattlesnake is famous for, but it's not really relevant to this discussion in that a technical debate about its applied DPS and whatnot will derail this thread unnecessarily.


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#59 - 2012-02-07 17:08:41 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Ireland VonVicious,
Can you create a separate thread for your Rattlesnake setup so the community can give it a proper discussion/critique? The fit is interesting in that pumps out DPS while still managing to keep the passive tank that the Rattlesnake is famous for, but it's not really relevant to this discussion in that a technical debate about its applied DPS and whatnot will derail this thread unnecessarily.





here is the link:

http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/58826-Rattlesnake-Drone-L4-champ.html

Consider it done.
Hans Momaki
State War Academy
Caldari State
#60 - 2012-02-07 21:18:19 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:


Also the 800 is from no implants. I pull 832 with my implants and have 2 implants that effect explosion radius and speed to allow for close to full dps on cruisers without switching missles.



So, basically your two imps beat my 2x Rigor II's, 1x flare , my RF TP and my 3% Exploradius/velocity when it comes down to dmg application on cruisers? Well, I do 1/5 th of my volleydmg against sansha elite-cruisers, and 1/3 against non-elite cruisers. I can't hit angel BS's for full dmg with fury's either... Stop posting faked facts please.

The whole problem with the Golem is infact the dmg application from torps/cruise missiles. It's just ****** as hell. Dmg range is hilarious too ([email protected] without T2, lol). Either buff torps directly, or give a usefull bonus to dmg application to the Golem instead.